Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, so you know a little more info , I have been dealing with reptiles for about 10 uears now. I have unpacked thousands of Uroplatus over the years of all kinds from Alluadi, to ebenaui and everything in between.
Anyways, Uroplatus on CITIES does not go into effect till January 2005.
Me and another company are importing the last shipment before this. We are bringing in 200hds of each species. Ebenaui, Fimbriatus, Phantasticus, Henkeli, Sikkorae and all sub species and rare species that are not mentioned(guentheri(sp?), etc)
The common species will be 200 animals of each. The rarely seen species will be alot less.
This does not mean as everyone in the classifieds, etc is implying that after January that no more Uroplatus will be imported. This is only a addition so the trade can be monitored.
A buddy of mine was recently over there and he said all you had to at night was walk around and you can find them like we find anoles here. They were everywhere.
CITIES listing is only to monitor the numbers and set an amount of numbers(usually in the thousands, maybe tens of thousands with Uroplatus) per species an assign a certain number of that to the different exporters. They see who exported the most over the years and allocate them the largest numbers on their quotas.
If they do not fill this quota by sending every single one out over the year, they get it reduced by the number they fell short by. Keeping up? Good.
Now this does not mean that Uroplatus are going to be 100.00 Wholesale, instead of 50 bucks or so retail, they might go up in price 10-15 just because right now the demand is so high for them that that is how the market works.
I hope that this clarifies the questions and concerns some of you had over how expensive they will be, etc.
I for am giving facts that the Uroplatus complex will be reasonabl priced but not in the three digits.
MikeB

p.s. C.B. Babies should be 200.00ea and so, not WC'S!
So buy up some WC'S and breed them.....because one thing is for sure....MADAGASCAR IS EXPECTED TO CLOSE ITS BORDERS COMPLETELY TO THE ANIMAL TRADE BY 2010.
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"Quality isn't Quality without customer service so I guess I sell quality"

i think i can speak for everyone as we're all anxious, many of us cant afford to buy large quantities, and worry for our projects. i, for one, have bred my own phantasticus in the past and my worries are not being able to come up with enough babies from unrelated pairs to not have to inbreed the blood i've already got. even if it comes down to it, i'd rather sell them to someone looking for cb's rather than inbreed them. anyhow...thanks for being so clear about that, it helps us a lot around here when someone who has some knowledge of whats going on higher up in the herp trading world decides to share some of what they know. you say you will be importing large numbers soon, will you have an ad in the classifieds?

SURELY no one believed there would always be wild caught animals available in a place as unique and isolated as Madagascar?

Of course it will close to export, many countries have done this already, and really, who can argue against that? Look at Madagascar, its a small island, its got a lot of animals found nowhere else in the world, and the destruction of the primary forest is happening at a phenomenal rate. There will be nowhere for these animals to live except nature preserves that are in their natural range. A lot of the species collected and imported now only have "protected" areas left in their habitat range... So when all of the area outside the preserves are depleted, the demand for these animals is going to essentially force illegal collection, and potentially devastate an already dwindling number of animals. What other choice is there but to stop importing?

Theres been talk of this for a long time now, and eventually, yes, it will happen... but is that time now? Clearly not.
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www.wildeyereptiles.com

Chameleons, geckos & invertebrates

This statement is very sketchy... "A buddy of mine was recently over there and he said all you had to at night was walk around and you can find them like we find anoles here. They were everywhere."

Sorry for being very opinionated, and I’m not trying to start anything here, but I correspond on a academic level to experts and professionals who say the EXACT opposite... One happens to conduct genetic research on Uroplatus... His primary research interest is Lemurs, but regardless he spends several months a year living in Madagascar... And in a two week research trip to Madagascar by several of my peers (who are professionals at a highly touted conservation institution) to the "heart" of Uro grounds (Ankarafantika, Ambanja and the Lokobe Reserve to name a few) saw a SINGLE Uroplatus henkeli... I would not go as far as to say that they run around like anoles... "A. sagrei is highly invasive; it reaches high population densities, shows exponential range expansion and is competitively superior to and a predator of native lizards" ( Kolbe et al., Genetic variation increases during biological invasion by a Cuban lizard. Nature 431, 177-181 (2004).) This little blurb says it all, and I’ll just add that anolis lizards seem to thrive in disrupted habitat (ie. developed by humans). Uroplatus are in deep trouble unless things change, and you certainly won’t find them hopping boats to mainland Africa and Asia and spreading like wild fire. They are increasingly becoming geographically and genetically isolated because of obvious reasons. Sorry, but “a buddy of mine” story doesn’t cut it for me and it certainly doesn’t rest my mind about the plight of this genus... I too do not expect very tight restrictions on the importation, but they certainly cannot withstand collection of “tens of thousands” of specimens… Just my two cents…
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Ben

They must be looking in the wrong places, he showed me slides of one nights catch and it was in excess of 20 individuals....
explain how people import so many at once? they must not be hard to find.
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"Quality isn't Quality without customer service so I guess I sell quality"

You're going to tell me that someone who turned up the second of only two officially (scientifically) documented guentheri doesn't know where to find Uroplatus?... And someone that is currently isolating microsatellites from various natural populations of several Uroplatus spp. can't find them?... Funny... Badly informed and funny...

And I'll tell you exactly how they import such large numbers... Several hundred people with 2,000 watt halides are looking for them!... Why?... because they can make a buck... I'm not sure if you know this, buts its a common practice to go into villages and ask locals to take you DIRECTLY to stuff that you would otherwise have no clue about...

You explain to me why Uroplatus are becoming less and less available?... and please explain to me why we are even having a discussion about Uroplatus in regard to CITES?... Like I said, I'm not trying to start an argument here, but anyone that thinks that there is an endless supply of ANYTHING in this world is as ignorant as they come... Leah stated it best...

I am not one to insinuate, but it seems to me that you have no concept of conservation... Oh, or it is just because they import so many of them that that must mean there are thousands... No wait, hundreds of thousands more just climbing, jumping and running around all over Madagascar begging to be added to the next shipment... And before they were added to CITES there must have been millions?!...
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Ben

Ben and Mike,

I think we should go to Madagascar and do some research of our own. And tour the entire island.

Keep in mind the lemur guy is primarily after lemurs. Atleast we can work directly for one genus.

Also another shipment just hit the ground. I'm making calls tomorrow morning about it.

cheers,
jason

im down....i really hope to get into herpetology in grad school...to become one of those people who does the field studies and all. but thats gonna take a bit more schooling than what i've got with my undergrad degree. i've been trying to convince my parents for at least a vacation there. of course, im the only person in my family who really shows a love for exotic reptiles and rain forest animals. i expect by the time im far enough along in my education to actually be able to take an academic trip to madagascar, trade of uroplatus will be shut off so research will be my last option for getting to really see them and learn about them. id love to set out and try to study their eating habits and such in the wild. their behavior has always amazed me with the tail waving. as many of us are concerned, i would also like to learn how to unlock their breeding potential. but thats all wishful thinking at this point.

Yes, he researches lemurs, but thats not to say that he doesn't have expert knowledge on Uroplatus... the point is, I'm not going to let some jobber tell me that the genus is OK when I know people who do academic research on these animals that say otherwise... I also know that CITES being placed on Uroplatus will barely even cause a bump in the road as far as regulation... their only hope, like Leah said, is to shut the country down... People trying to scare hobbyists into thinking they will no longer be imported in strong numbers are just using the CITES craze to lure uneducated buyers...
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Ben

Uroplatus on CITES rather...
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Ben

Ben,

I wasn't trying to use your buddy's lemur research to say he's clueless. I was attempting to point out that his main goal is lemurs. I can't restate nor retract that initial comment. No jobber can make a claim without real proof. I put my foot in my mouth on that one. I didn't really get my statement out on that one. My feet don't taste as good as I thought they might. lol.

At any rate, I can say after having done some business in the past with this particular vendor and turning his offers down because they seemed to good to be true, I would be willing to say its bogus info. I personally, do not believe the statements of an american in comparison to those of a field zoologist. I would rather take my chances when the animals actually show up.

there is nothing that we can do to educate the masses. people are people, they aren't always that bright unfortunately, they will buy out of fear.

cheers,
Jason

yea, i agree...these vendors selling and mentioning "you should buy now and invest in these animals while you still can." these animals should not purely be looked at as investments! i mean, i do consider my uro's as investments and such, but that is not the reason to buy them in the first place! they need to better explain that these are complex creatures that require advanced care, not just a bunch of geckos you can buy at a certain price today and sell for a bigger price in a few months. sheesh.

i completely agree. however let's remember that he is saying what his friend has told him. not what he is 100% sure exists there.
but you makes some good points that are probably making him realize his friend is sorely mistaken.

Guentheri? Only two scientifically described animals? How come I have owned over 40? and sold 40?
I guess he is looking int he wrong places, and since it is him and a small group of people looking for them I guess they can't find them, remember they are built and designed not to be found.
Explain then if there aen't that many, how so many are caught and sent here? In the THOUSANDS per year?
They must be looking harder, and more effeciently, the excuse of using high beam lights to find them is ridiculous, fi they find them, they are there!!!
If they didn't find them, didn't export so many, THEN they must be hard to get or rare, but just think how can something be found in such great numbers be considered rare? Just because someone uses a flashlight makes it rare? You aren't making sense.
And sorry to dissapoint you but I am not a jobber.....I import my own in split shipments with another company.
I import hundreds a year.....who did the CITIES study showing the numbers were rare and hard to find? Probably someone like YOUR friend, with only a few other people........how can they find that many if they dont have hundreds of people looking for them, with powerful flashlights. Now if the study was done using a majority of regular uroplatus hunters, then they might rethink their estimates, etc.
Think about it.
Now if they did use these hundreds of people with high power flashlights and what not that know where to look, they might have actually found some.
Even with high power lighs, hundreds of people, you think they get every one? I don't think so, they conservatively only find about 50% or less that occupy an area.
To say they find every single one is ridiculous, that is like saying all uroplatus in the area have their eyes facing the lights to be seen with the eye shine, we all know that doesnt happen.
My buddy who has been there says that finding three or four in a bush or tree is very common and that half the time they do find eye shine and go to the tree to collect the animal, the never find it.
Think about this.....tell your friend to get 20 villagers, give them high power lights, and then go looking for henkeli, etc.
He might actually find something. t sjust common sense
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"Quality isn't Quality without customer service so I guess I sell quality"

you said to explain to you why uroplatus are becoming less and less available, its easy , its easily explainable because of two reasons.
Reason #1-Europeans are paying much higher dollar now than we are.
Reason #2-This time of year most exporters are out of quotas already.

I do not remember a year when I had more Uroplatus than I sold this year.
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"Quality isn't Quality without customer service so I guess I sell quality"

If I could understand even half of "english" in the thread before last, I would respond... But there's no arguing with uneducated people... Just can't be done, and I refuse to waste my time... Pat on the back to importing so many damn Uroplatus... Buy a population ecology book and read it, take an english class and then we'll talk...
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Ben

Have to make this point...

I did get out of your message this; you don’t understand the point I was trying to make about the guentheri (by the way, specific epithets have never been capitalized, not in the nearly 250 years the binomial system has been in use). I was merely stating the fact that he has collected guentheri, a rarer species, so he does know where the Uros are… I’m sure you understand, but when someone is seeking to “rediscover” a species they need only to collect a very small number of specimens (sometimes only one) to compare against the holotype… Therefore, unlike your greedy friends, he was not out trying to bag every gecko he laid his hands on… You seem to be stuck in another world where Uroplatus bountifully run through the trees, frolicking and laughing joyously… I mean, here’s what you say… “I have been dealing with reptiles for about 10 uears now. I have unpacked thousands of Uroplatus over the years of all kinds from Alluadi, to ebenaui and everything in between” AND out of those “thousands” of Uros you “have owned over 40 and sold 40”… Wow, that really shows me right there how rare at least this species is, thanks for proving my point for me… You, as well as any other uneducated person, hasn’t given me a single reason to believe that all the other Uroplatus spp. aren't heading in the same direction… But then again, I don’t “make sense”…
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Ben

np
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Ben

Sorry but I am not uneducated....I have 4 yrs under my belt and a degree, and did all just to please others.
If it were me, I would have never gone through 4 yrs of university.
But either way, I am not uneducated and for you to make a statement like that is just a simple tactic to discredit me....
Sorry if I do not care about punctuation, or capitalizing where I should, or not.
I really dont care...I am typing simple words.....I can also type all these words an miss one letter in almost every one that is more than two syllables and you can understand it completely.
Its the human mind.
You do not read letter by letter, but by segments.
Anyways, enough of the B.S.
you are not taking into account and not thinking deep enough on what I have been writing.
You just said if they are uncommon for me to have had 40 or so Guentheri, (oops I capitalized it again!) that must show how rare they are.
Well lets see I am not the only customer/importer of uroplatus.....there are dozens and dozens of others who i have personally seen import these same animals.
We also have the japs who get alot of guentheri cause they pay alot more than we do. And you also have the Europeans(oops I capitalized the "a" and and I could have written a run on sentence or I could have used a different word to start of this sentence, oh no!)....who buy alot of them as well......I am by no means a big importer.......I know of others who have had close to 200 guentheri.....and they came in with guentheri paperwork....that is only one other importer....granted they are rarer to the person with limited man power to search for them, and limited means to get to where they REALLY are.....
you would be surprised where some of the guentheri have been found(street lights where available, palm fronds, etc)
Now since you are much more educated, in your opinion, why don't you look for different reasons than just staying firm on one stance......in the long run the island is doomed anyways......if you stop the importation of these animals and others what are the people whose lives must be sustained...????? they are going to do the next viable alternative, slash and burn and kill all the geckos anyways....its a lose lose in the very very very long run.....but atleast in the earlier stages we can start founding stock and fix all the hinderances we have now of breeding these guys to their fullest potential.....would it be good that they close tommorow for export, and we have such limited stock to work with......how are we as hobbyists, going to sustain something that is doomed int he wild....I think it would show a message to the people like you that wow, these "uneducated" people can actually do something like breed uroplatus in such a way as to ensure their suvival even if the whole island sinks.....
well anyways, think beyond today, look towards tommorow......if it weren't for us they would be doomed for sure.....
we are just making a buck, and at the same time helping a species from going out....becuase by starting now....we can establish exact protocols for breeding.....we have stronger bloodlines to ensure genetic diversity for many decades to come....now is the time to learn, because in 25-50 years , where do YOU think uroplatus will be considering the massive decline of the island...I know we can agree on that...the island is doomed....no helping that.......nd more and more people being born and needing to make money to live.....you cannot fight that.....as always people come first to anything else.....to me it bothers me cause I do not believe so, but it is a socially acceptable issue....people first
So just try to explain the saving of so many different habitats for so many different uroplatus.....it is not going to happen....
they will be wiped out sooner or later, and I am glad I can say that I brought in a massive number before that will happen to ensure that in the long run, they will still be existant.
Think about it....
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"Quality isn't Quality without customer service so I guess I sell quality"

if they were as common as anoles on the ground the price would be cheap.. read the Cites recomendations and decide for yourself. i printed off all 30 pages and read it and it only furthered my wanting to presevere Uros and set up more breeding programs. for instance from 2001-2003 there were over 5,000 uroplatus phantaticus exported from madagascar and thats only leagally exported speicimens... and out of the 5,000 how many do you think survived. In 7 days of searching in the known localities only 5 were found. no animal can take collection like this unless they are like a colonizer like A. sagerei. just my two cents.

I know I am a hypocrit since I have bought wild caught uroplatus before but I just hate see these guys imported in such great numbers. I wish the C.I.T.E.S restriction went on now so the prices did go up and not so many Uroplatus went into the hands of novices. I read an article that at the rate we're importing them and their habitat is being destroyed they will be on the endanged or critically endangered list by 2010. I would rather have Madagascar completely close for several years and then reopen when the animals have replenished the loss in their population than play this game that we are going to import them until we can't anymore and never have access to WC Uroplatus again.
Matt

Thats exactly it - there will not be any species replenishment! A section of habitat can only support so many individuals, and with no additional habitat, you cant exceed the maximum capaity of the given area.

Its not that the pet trade alone is driving the animals to extinction, its that they lack the habitat to be able to reproductively combat natural population controls and collection.

This isnt unique to Uroplatus - this is a Madagascan epidemic. You figure, all of the animals that live there are all subject to this habitat loss, and those that cant adapt are all going to be living in the same protected areas. This can spell out all kinds of trouble for all of these species, you are going to have massive competition for food and resources, among other things.

I feel the starting comments on this thread are nothing more than marketing.
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www.wildeyereptiles.com

Chameleons, geckos & invertebrates