Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First I want to adress Paul.... I'm sorry if you feel that I am adding to the confusion as that is not my intent at all.... I do however have to say that you should do a little more research on the different morphs/colorphases...... Snow dragons have never had clear nails.... They are the dragons that turned more white from the "hypo" line Kevin has been selling for years now. They also have never been known for having clear nials with the exception of one that he produced many years ago that was born almost solid white and I believe had all clear nails........ (that is the only "snow dragon" I know of that he produced with all clear nails) That is also the3 only info I have on that animal.... I don't even know if he actually bred it.
Mark LeShock did import the "leucistic" line first.... however, it was a line that didn't do well for whatever reasons and that is why you didn't see many of them around and they kinda didn't take off here in the states.... poor thrivers.... Kevin imported them again later and he has turned it into a heartier lbloodline and they are now becoming more well known. That is straight from Rob Dachius mouth in a phone conversation we had.
Sorry if that pisses you off Rob for using a quote from you... again not my intent....

Randy..... That wasn't directed at you alone and was not personal at all... I respect you as a peer and think you do a great job from what i can see. It was rather a generalization of how it seems that many people have made it very clear that they believe anything I say to be nonsense or that I'm not "qualified" to be adding to the "elite" ones conversations. Frankly I don't really care what anyone thinks about what I have to say because if I'm wrong... I will be the first to stand up and say so..... As far as stating opinions without proper research...... That article about the albino iggy.... That is hardly enough information to come to a conclusion about any beardie morph whatsoever. I'm also aware that you are working with the several different morphs and would like to add that I was working with the hypo/snow bloodlines.
You are of course aware that there are two seperate sets of melanophores.... one in the dermis and one in the epidermis.... Since the dermal melanophores aid in color and pattern developement wouldn't you say that since hypo/snows are well known for losing pattern, dropping color at around six to 10 weeks, or if they do hold color it usually faded or "washed out" and if the pattern stays it is also less than normal.... wouldn't that suggest a disfunction in the melanophores to you?
I agree that if it was an issue of only the color in the hypo/snows being characteristic of appearance it very well could go right along with the article you linked me too.... However there are several characteristics in play with this morph. As I said before, co-dom/inherited is really of no matter as we know that this defect is passed on to the next generation phenotypically speaking. I would suggest reading the chapter on chromatophore biology in Reptile and ASmphibian Variants by H. Bernard Bechtell.

Sean.... We already have a name system that is in place....... there are hypo/snows.... there are hypo-pastels........ there are marketed leucistics..... there are pastels...... there are reds... there are yellows...... etc....
Why change ANYTHING? There is no need.... Just because the originator of the morph may have misnamed it does not mean that we should change it..... DOing so will only create much more confusion than there already is.... I think everyone should stop being stubborn and get on the same page....... We are all in this together so why not make it easier on ourselves and those to follow us by just leaving what has been named, named just that.

Duncan... I think you have about the deepest understanding of anyone in this forum when it comes to genetics! i however, have to disagree with your theory that the lbredding Rob and Vicki did proves nothing. First of all.... the marketed leucistics do not have black or blue eyes..... That is characteristic for a lucy..... I fail to see how breeding to genetic morphs together could create a lucy as this is a seperate standing morph. WHen you breed an anerythristic boa to an albino and produce double hets then breed the babies to produce a snow you don't get a leucistic boa you get a new morph that they have named the "snow boa". Why would this change for beardies?

Some of this is just my opinion but much is factual information.... I think that the conclusions I have drawn from the facts i have gathered are fairly close to what is happening. However, I am human and humans of course are known to make mistakes........

Randy I apologize if I came across a little gruff in the other post but i am really more than a little ticked at how people are twisting everything..... There is going to be alot of inbreeding resulting from it if someone doesn't stand up and say something

Later guys,

Robert Wood
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

What is wrong with imbreeding dragons? We do it all the time in dogs and cats? I would not breed clutchmates because I'm sure your setting yourself up for multiple problems with their offspring, but what about father/daughter, mother/son? I have not breed dragons before but I want to know factual or proven positives and negatives with imbreeding bearded dragons.

Jeff

Dragons have been inbred enough already because of the limited original population in the states and the ban that Australia has put on exporting new bloodlines.

Sean
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Heart Mountain Herps

The theory behind it is that beardies have a limited gene pool here in the states. There are people working on getting new blood lines into the states but the gene pool has been so shallow for so many years that dragons are becoming smaller, less likely to thrive and more prone to disease than before just to name a few. This is what i have read in forums and articles concerning this issue.

Look at what happened to the albino boas. many people are producing slow growing, sickly boas that are missing eyes, have to be force fed...etc.... It is a direct result of the inbreeding people practiced to get the quick buck for the albino boa..... I'm not an expert on this issue, but I don't think that breeding mother/son or father/daughter is a good idea AT ALL. Eventually it will come back and bite you or the people who are buying your offspring.

This is my opinion only and I apologize for not having any of the studies you requested but if you contact a vet that is well known for reptiles I'm sure he could give you a much more scientific theory than mine.

Later,
Robert
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

I think when it comes to dogs and cats you're thinking of line breeding, not inbreeding. Big difference.

Even still, with the limited dragons we have, you want to go as far to the opposite side of the gene pool as possible.

A little while back on this forum, a person had a clutch of dragons hatch with curly tails. Turned out she had mated a father to a daughter. One generation of inbreeding and there were already genetic deformities. That's what we're dealing with, here.
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
1.0 pictus gecko (Nicodemus)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
0.0.1 tarantula (Calcifer)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

>>I
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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

Hey there! I didn't get a message, but I still lurk here quite a bit, so I see what's goin on w/ everyone.
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
1.0 pictus gecko (Nicodemus)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
0.0.1 tarantula (Calcifer)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

I forgot to give her the message, we had the server crash for a bit and got sidetracked...'

Hey Kephy, he said to tell you hi

there, message delivered
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www.reptilerooms.com

Your feelings are very common for someone just getting into BDs. You hear things like you can breed related reptiles for up to seven generations. It is one of the common misnomers in Reptiles. In Bds it takes on a whole new aspect because of the very small gene pool and the fact that very few dragons are imported each year. As far as dogs and cats go they are a perfect example of why you should not inbreed or line breed. The have so many diseases like hip displasia, progressive retinal atrophy and collie eye anomaly all caused by line breeding.

-Randy

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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

Hey Robert,

I know there's a naming system but a most people don't stick to it opting instead to give some exotic sounding name in hopes of better sales. As far as renaming leucistics something else, well they're not leucistics and what happens when we get actual leucistics? I'm not excluding myself here, I'm breeding them also and will sell them as 'leucistics' because that's the name that's being used and that's where I can get my money out of them. When a group of breeders can't even agree on traits of a certain morph there's something wrong and needs addressed. Personally I don't care whats decided on just so that there is something definitive so we can go yes this is or no this isn't with some degree of certainty. Just thought I'd explain my reasoning for saying what I did.

Sean
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Heart Mountain Herps

I believe that there was a "marketed leucistic"leapord gecko as well. I think they gave the actual leucistic the name of "patternless" if I'm not mistaken. That could surely happen with beardies as well....

I absolutley agree that people should name the morphs what they are and not deviate from that.... However, people seem to have this need to leave their mark on everyt5hing they touch...LOL..... What better way than giving an exotic name to a new morph of their favorite reptile. It's aggrivating but it happens every day.... My main concern is getting everyone on the same page as far as the different bloodlines/phases/morphs are concerned ...... The only way to do that really is send emails when you see an animal improperly represented and try to inform others of what the consequences could be. SOme of these people are just oblivious when "morphology" is concerned and mean no harm and think they have something they don't. Others are plain taking advantage.... Changing the names of any given bloodline/morph is only compounding this problem in my opinion.

Later,
Robert
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

Still think thats wrong.
Selling a dragon that isn't leucistic as leucistic, doesn't make him/her more leucistic.
Just sell them as hypomelanistic, put hyperirridic in the name if you want, but do not use the name Leucistic if you now that it isn't.

Leucism stands for a certain combination of genetic defects (genotype), as it does with other animals.
Putting the leucistic name tag on a dragon, that you now that isn't leucistic at all is stupid and only good for filling your pockets.
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That would seem to be the easiest answer but what if he didn't understand as much as you or I do about genetics and just sold them as what they were sold to him as..... It is possible and this is a problem but not as malicious as just blatently taking advantage of people. Either way it is a mistake but why make things worse by being the anally retentive corrector of morph names. Lets just put the info out there and inform people of the truth and that's really all we can do right?
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

As far as renaming leucistics something else, well they're not leucistics and what happens when we get actual leucistics? I'm not excluding myself here, I'm breeding them also and will sell them as 'leucistics' because that's the name that's being used and that's where I can get my money out of them

As i read this i'm most certainly under the impression that he already new that his dragon(s) aren't leucistic.
If he didn't new that he does now, and could rename his "Leucistics".

Love te last part about the money
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That is my entire reasoning for these recent posts... I f we start calling these animals that have already been named something else someone just beginning to breed that had no idea of the previous name change could buy two dragons that are too closely rtelated adn bred them resulting in less than average beardies... and then if they did thrive and were released into the market you have muttled genetics being introduced into an already shallow gene pool. Calling the morphs what the originators have named them ensures that everyone is on the same page and would greatly reduce the risk of this happening. Call it a flaming white snow ball for all I care but don't change the name midstream so that some might think they are to seperate bloodlines... simply give the truth to them about the genetics and move on.... much safer way to go about it in my opinion...

Later,
Robert
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

Then that someone should do his homework before breeding such dragons!!!!!!!!!!! it is domething you should do for yourself.
Otherwise that someone is breeding and really don't what the hell he/she is doing amd what genes he/she is using.

But again

Leucism is not a name that the bearded dragon breeders that "created" the leucistics made up, it existited long before that.
They just used it wrong, could be because of the lack of knowledge.
It stands for a certain genetic defect, the ones on the market today do not have those genetic defects.

The fact remains that the marketed leucistic dragons aren't leucistic, so aren't suppose to be named that way.

What are we suppose to name dragons that really are leucistic in the future??????????
TI think this is the start of a whole series of names being used wrong and where a made up morph name can be mistaken for a genetic defect, to the point where there will be no one that understands what to name a dragon and will just pick one.

Duncan
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i agree that it is a problem and more so in beardies than any other reptiles except maybe leopard geckos....

It is however not as big of a problem as changing the names of these lines would be in the future for people just entering into the scene. True that the lucys may not actually be lucys and the name was misused but Kevin actually posted here explaining what happened and said that they were sold to him as Lucys and that is what he marketed them as. Lack of knowledge? Possibly... Wanting to keep down confusion as far as keeping the bloodlines straight.. most likely and most important in my opinion. I think that making sure there is less confusion about the seperate bloodlines by calling them what they have been named is absolutely essential for beardies and breeders alike.
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

I know exactly now what you mean with the double hets thing but i thought that the rob and vicky had had jet black eyes.

But you're really missing my point here
It really doesn't matter if did have them or not, the thing is that even if the dragon had them, the breeding that Rob and Vicky did couldn't prove it in a billion years.
It had only created hypo's that were hets for axantism, and being so just looked as hypo's.
So as i sayd, then you would have to do another breeding with those hets to prove it.

I really do not understand why they used a hypo to try to prove it, this only makes it harder to see what is going on because the hypo and the leu would have shared the same defect (melanophores)that can be bred as simple recessive.

They had better used a normal dragons with a lot of color and then do a hets (double hets) breeding.
If the clutches of the lue x "normal" are very light in color then that already could be the hint that the leu isn't hypoxantic but more like hyperirridic.
But then you still have a 2 whole cluthes of double hets dragons to prove it.
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I still don't see how you can say that it is possible to get hypomelanistic animals by breeding a lucy to a hypomelanistic (clearnails) It seems you would have a double het for lucy and hypo-pastel. I don't see how these two traits could actually work together in a sense by producing 100% clear nailed hypomelanistic beardies. It seems to me that these two traits would be independant of oneanother. Unless they are occupying both loci which would eliminate the "normal" appearance alltogether and display a mixture of the two traits. Like in cornsnakes concerning the stripe and motley genes.

Also, Rob and Vicki bred color into the pure marketed lucys so it is definately not a leucistic line for sure. There is no way that a leucistic animal could show color at all. I may be wrong about the black eyes but I am pretty sure that there are no lucys with black eyes.... I do know that the translucents have blue and black eyes varrying from beardie to beardie....

WHat is the definition of hyperirrisistic? How could a hypomelanistic animal be hyperirrisistic as well.... seems this would be another new morph in itself? Great chatting with you Duncan! lways a pleasure!

Robert
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson

Email from inTheBlue to AlphaDragonZ in response to one of my ads:

[Original Message]
> From:
> To:
> Date: 12/4/2004 7:19:03 PM
> Subject: Message about: High End Hypopastel Pair Het for(clear nails) ridiculous colors Don't miss your chance! $250
>
> When you say snow hypopastel are you talking about snow X hypopastel cross or are you calling a clearnailed animal snow hypopastel? Where did you get a snow hypopastel? I've never heard of this bloodline?
>
> Thanks,
> RObert

Hello Robert,
I am not sure if you are trying to ask questions or be rude. My Snow hypopastel came from a guy named Josh Dovenberger. Do you know who he is? He was basically the West Coast equivalent to Paul Morlock. He managed most of Sandfire Dragon Ranch's Translucent project for the last few years and also bred many of his own high end stuff. He coined the term Snow HypoPastel because the dragons are pure white with clear nails he also has a line of Dragons he refers to as Sunburst hypopastels that are a Snow hypopastel crossed with a orange/red hypopastel. It is just the same as the Dachiu's describe there Orange Hypopastel, and a Red Hypopastel that I saw at the show in San Diego. These Dragons have been around for a while but are definitely low profile. Usually when somebody says they bought there hypopastels from a small private breeder in California it is usually from this guys line. A large percentage of Josh's Dragons were wholesaled out to smaller breeders like ReptileRendezvous who in turn sold them to a mostly established customer base. I have never seen you post dragons and I am wondering what genetic morphs you work with.
As far as the problem with people not giving you the respect you need, it probably has to do with the way in which you address situations. It is not a argument forum it is a forum that is meant to help people with their questions and problems. It is also meant for healthy debate and banter but not singling people out and attacking them. I do think you are more aware of Reptile genetics than 95% percent of the people in this business, and to this day I cannot figure out what you are stubbornly debating with me about.
You keep on beating this drum about Kevin Dunnes Snow dragons. To be totally honest it is not important to me but since you keep bringing it up I decided to take an academic perspective. I do not work with them nor do I plan to. I purchased one of his Snows when I first got started in BDs and really felt like it was a line bred normal dragon. It would get really dark and it would get really light but nothing in the way of Hypomelanistic from a simple recessive/dominant trait standpoint. This was established by the breeding of a normal to a Snow in which the dragons came out in every color from normal to light colored. And succesively when proposed hets were bred back to each other the result was the same spectrum of dark to light. The snow line does not lighten all of the offspring of a proposed het X het breeding meaning that it is neither recessive or dominant. As far as the Co-dominant argument that would be a very interesting one because codominance implies that two or more different alleles contribute equally to the phenotype of a heterozygote. This would be very hard to prove and if you can show me several different reproducible phenotypes of Snow dragons I would love to see them. From a purest use of the the word hypo(lowered or less than normal) melanistic(melanin) than yes it could be called a hypo but the only thing that could prove that it is a genetic trait was if a BDs DNA was sequenced and the particular gene or genes were identified and we both know this is never going to happen. Let me reiterate that I do not work with this line and nor do I have any interest in working with them.

You wrote:
As far as stating opinions without proper research...... That article about the albino iggy.... That is hardly enough information to come to a conclusion about any beardie morph whatsoever.
The links were not meant for you they were meant for some of the other users that had asked questions and said they were thoroughly confused. As I am quite sure you are aware of that info already. On the other hand I highly doubt you read the information that I had on the link it is not an article on albino iggys it specifically says:

Reptile Skin Basis

and no where does it say iggy skin article or basis. The page was actually meant to explain the basics of Reptile Skin especially lizard skin makeup and morphology which many people had asked about in there posts. I said that I research my concepts and ideas before I develop an opinion and that is just what I do it was not meant to say that you don't.

Again I am not trying to be rude and I do feel like by sending me this email in light of the past and present posts that you have been attempting to argue with me. I would rather not argue but I would love to discuss beardie genetics.

Thanks,
Randy

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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

Well, Randy, I don't know how much clearer I can make it that I am not trying to be rude or argue with you. In fact like I said several times I respect you as a peer and value opinions from people such as yourself. I don't think that anyone is really hearing what I'm saying at all.

First I have to say that the email was intended as a ligitimate question to find out about the dragons you had for sale. i bought a dragon a couple months ago that was represented as a Snow hypomelanistic X Sandfire cross.... I am looking for a mate for him but would also like to find out info on the clearnailed fathers origins as the lady i bought him from got him from a lady that became very ill and she has no way of tracing lineage and this is the third time I have heard a clearnail described this way so I thought you could possibly have some info as to where this dragons father COULD have possibly originated. That's all. I also have a het for hypo-pastel greenie/redflame juvie as well.... So I will be producing hypomelanistic offspring in about a year. I haven't posted any pics of my dragons because I lost my digi in the pawn shop when I hit a rough spot a few months ago. I also didn't realize that you needed to be working with these morphs to understand or want to learn all you can about them... i thought that a responsible breeder would actually learn before breeding them.

Second if I was attacking you I would have posted those questions publically with some choice additional commentary. I think everyone has seen me attack a couple people in here who were belittling others... I was very clear with my words and I'm sure they new I was being rude and that I was very upset with them. I would treat you no different if I was attacking you. So, with that said, I want to add that if you mean not pussyfooting around and saying what is on my mind straight forward when you mentioned the way I handel situations your right.... I will never kiss ass or sugar coat anything I have to say. I've never been that way and never will be. i do however admit that i can overreact when I get upset. In no way am I singleing you out or anyone else for that matter.

I did read that article and went to the other link that had the info on the punitive square. I wouldn't have said I did if I hadn't... This is exactly what I am talking about when I spoke of how I'm not taken seriously.... Your post comes off very condensending and have done so several times in the past towards me as well. many times people develope an attitude of this nature and don't even realise they are doing it or how they come across to others plus this computer gives you no body language or tone of voice to draw from either. It could all be a case of misinterpreting each other. I have no ill will towards you even though I do feel that you can get the better than attitude at times. We all have our little hangups, myself included.

I also realize that this is not an argument forum and I beleive that you are the one that drug an argument here when you posted my email to you and accused me of singling you out and attacking you. I've said in every post that this was not my intent because I know that i can come a cross wrong... Many people misunderstand me so i am used to it. I also have to say that I have been posting about genetics in this forum for over a year and Paul Morlock and Rob Dachiu are the only ones that even bothered to take the time to share info. Your links are the FIRST ones in over a year of me posting and trying to learn that I have received period. So forgive me if I seem a little frustrated but good grief.... Can I post questions and get answerstoo? Or is this forum only for health and husbandry questions?

On that note.... It seems that now there are at least 4 different clearnailed hypomelanistic bloolines floating around. With all of the concern about inbreeding, wouldn't it be more beneficial to the trade to NOT keep these "low profile". Maybe but then again that would open the publics eyes to what is really out there. They can breed the related hypo-pastel hets and the same for the lucys and we will keep these two bloodlines under wraps so that we have stronger bloodlines? Is this what it is saying to you? Cause man that sure is the way it seems from my view point. The almighty dollar.......

My "stubborn rantings" are merely aimed at how people are changing names of these morphs and the possibility of serious repercussion. A clearnailed snow would have to be related to the hypo/snow line to get the white color unless it was born in a cltch of normals right? I just think that it is very important to recognize each bloodline and not make new names for dragons that are outcrossed but still very much related. I also understand about Rob and Vickis red hypo-pastels etc. The thing with Rob and Vicki is that they tell you in the desription of the animal the lineage. They haven't created new names for any of the bloodlines even when they outcross them. That in my opinion is a highly respectable practice and everyone should be this forward about their offspring. I also notice that you do the same thing. This is one of the reasons i respect you as much as I do and also why I would feel very comfortable buying your dragons. That is THE reason I contacted you about the dragons for sale. I also don't hold this post against you as i know I can come across entirely wrong at times.. FOR THAT I APOLOGIZE TO EVERYONE......

The way you worded your comments in the post that had the links and in the last post lead me to beleive exactly what I said in my previous post... Noone is really interested in talking about genetics they simnply want to state their opinions and everyone elses is just wrong.. There were several times I posted about the hypo/snows and my opinion and noone posted anything to it..... They did however post around it with comments aimed towards my opinion but really none of us have any solid proof of our opinions on that bloodline. I will keep posting about it and hopefully one day someone with the answers will come along.. Not because I'm interested in breeding them but because it fascinates me. That is the reason I keep bringing it up.

i think that Sean said it best about the minimealworms when we were talking about the guy not posting the info and telling us on his site that there is a trick to breeding them that he wasn't going to tell us... Sean said something to the effect of it was very shady to not give people the info they would need to produce these theirselves... I think this situation is exactly the same.... Like I've been saying for several months now Politics is ruining this trade/hobby..... it's all about MONEY and some people don't want to many hadns in the cookie jar.

So if you don't mind and you aren't mad at me still could you please tell me what you know about the Snow-Hypopastel as far as if that line of pastels was bred to the hypo/snow line or how he achieved a white hypo-pastel? I really do need a female to put with my male but don't want to get the bloodlines too close. that is of course if you even want to except my buisness at this point. it's a shame that i can't seem to post anything without pissing someone off.... I mean this is America and I do have the right to voice my opinions and will continue to do so even if it comes along with noone wanting to sell me dragons, selling me sick dragons and making me look like the bad guy or just being completely blackballed... Whatever guys... I know how easy it would be for me to be made lookk like something I'm not... I really don't feel like I've done anything to anyone to merit that type treatment but do feel like that is what's happening... WHY? Maybe I'm not asking the right questions for everyones security to not feel threatened? I'm sure that it is very simple to hold someone down... i used to do it for a living on the streets and I'm not as dumb as some may think I am.
I also have to say that i know how easy it would be to misinform someone and have them made a laughing stock... toying with people like that is very unprofesional but I'm sure funny to watch if your not on the recieving end.... So go ahead and call me argumentative, an asshole, crazy... take your shots as I'm very used to it. But I am not going to kiss anyones ass or change who I am to get to where I want to go.... I thought that being honest and treating people like humans would be enough to achieve that goal.

One last time.... I'm not trying to attack any of you... I feel like I'm the one being atttacked with a political game. i would appreciate your feedback and look forward to chatting with you soon.

Later,
Robert WOod
Tulsa, OK
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines.
Ralph Emerson