Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm posting this message to generate debate on the topic of local-specific alterna.

There was a time when alterna were bred to produce the nicest looking progeny. Both local-specific pairings and non-local pairings. At some point, I suppose a number of breeders decided that local-specific progeny were more "valuable" than others, whereupon their price increased, and the price on "mutts" dropped. It's almost as if non-local progeny are viewed like hybrids. This strikes me as odd, because as we all know, mixed progeny are not even integrades.

I fully understand the desire by many collectors to have animals that represent a gene pool from a specific place. I myself have local-specific animals from River Rd. (Lajitas, Big Hill, Panther Canyon), Xmas Mtns., Juno, Alpine, and Davis Mtns.

I am seeing snakes listed on this site for sale as local- specific that in my opinion have questionable genetic lineages...even considering the extreme variability of morphs from a single local. I suspect that there are many snakes out there sold as "pure" which are not.

So...

1) How is the market effected by this uncertainty?

2)The value of other species (Ball Pythons, etc.)is set based on morphology (and the genes needed to produce a certain appearance). Should "mutts" with nicer color and pattern be worth more than local-specific animals ?

3)Given that these animals are merely "pets" and there is no re-introduction scenario, does gene pool even matter?

1) How is the market effected by this uncertainty?

It is all a matter of supply and demand. It won't be easy to sell locale specific ugly alterna to anyone other than locale nuts.

2)The value of other species (Ball Pythons, etc.)is set based on morphology (and the genes needed to produce a certain appearance). Should "mutts" with nicer color and pattern be worth more than local-specific animals ?

Snakes are worth what people will pay for them, nothing more. If someone will give you $300 for a baby alterna from x.x miles SW of ________, then it is worth it. If they won't, then they aren't.

Most of the alterna I see being carried by customers at expos are wide banded, light phase blairi. Mostly "mutts" or common locale snakes.

3)Given that these animals are merely "pets" and there is no re-introduction scenario, does gene pool even matter?

No, not from a biological sense. Once you take that snake off the rock cut, it doesn't really matter whether you breed it or put it in a museum jar, it is dead from an ecological/biological sense.

It is not likely that the state would ever choose to "restock" alterna populations (they would protect them decades before they tried to restock). And on the remote chance that they do, they would rely on zoo stock with known genetic histories, not on the captive population with its shady history of locale mixing.

The thing that I find most amusing about this locale specific talk is that the size of a "locale" is dependent on how easy it is to collect. On 90, locale people insist on snakes from the same cut. If you are talking about Hudspeth county, the same mountain range appears to be "close enough" to be a locale.

Locale specific has no biological meaning. The idea of locale specific implies that the snakes share a common gene pool and that there is at least a possibility of these two snakes having mated in the wild.

You have to consider that
1. we have absolutely no data on range size of wild alterna
and
2. that our collection techniques run across, not along, probable dispersal corridors for this species (arroyos).

In this light, the fact that two snakes come from only 0.2 miles from each other down the road is irrelevant as they may be many miles from each other along normal snake dispersal corridors (therefore not really from the same "locality" ). We perceive them as possibly from the same gene pool when the biological reality may be very different.

So then we start judging their relatedness by their appearance (they came from the same cut and they look similar). This is another can of worms.

I think it makes a lot more sense to develop true breeding strains of light blairi, dark blairi, speckled snakes, bicolored snakes, etc, than to focus on something that is probably only a misperception of biological reality.

Then again, you know what they say about opinions!

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Chris Harrison

In sum we glean the following from chrish:

1) locale specific has no true biological meaning
2) size of a "locale" is dependent on how easy it is to collect 3) locale specific ugly alterna are only valuable to locale nuts
4) breeders have a history of undisclosed locale mixing
5) genetics are largely irrelevant once a snake is removed from the wild
6) it makes a lot more sense to develop true breeding strains

I tend to agree with all of the above. Would the market be better served by producing the most interesting morphs possible regardless of locale? One sees this with L. m. thayeri and others. Alternatively, if locale-specific has no biological meaning, and there remains a desire to attach a geographical tag on progeny, would County designation make more sense?

I agree with what Chris has said. It really comes down to what you like, what you are interested in and what you put into it. Biologically, the snakes we are working with don't really mean much. That is not to say they are not important, because to us, they are what "rings our bells!!".

What is important to all of this is that the concept of "locale specific" seems to hold some sort of biological relevance to some of the alterna folks. As Chris stated, we don't know jack about home range, movement patterns or any other real demographic data for wild alterna. On top of that, we have even less information on social behavior, degree of inbreeding and or the possibility that they may live in family groups within a local population. Have you ever considered that it is possible that the pair you pick up 5 yards apart in the same roadcut are not compatible, that they may come from what could be construed as rival groups by whatever rules wild alterna live by? We don't know???? There are many genetic isolating mechanisms besides proximity to other members of the species.

As such, the concept of locale specific alterna really only means they were caught in the same area. I am not criticizing that (I like to keep mine together from the same spot too). As far as genetics goes, however, none of us can say we are "right or wrong." Most importantly, as long as the snakes we produce stay in the captive realm and are labeled honestly and properly, it doesn't matter. What matters is we have the awesome little beasts to work with, share and enjoy.

I'm not one of the "authorities", such as Merker, Doherty, Fraser, or such, but in my opinion, some of the most outrageous specimens I have seen have been the result of deliberate non-locality breeding. I am of the belief that "a grayband is a grayband". I also know that if you take a specimen from, say, Boy Scout Road, and breed it to a Langtry animal, you are combining genetic material from the same species although each locale is separated from the other by perhaps 100 miles or more, and the morphology of each locale's population is fairly specific with individual variations that may at times differ quite a bit from the norm. So in such a breeding you will sometimes see progeny that are a little "different" than you might ever see in the wild at either locale. I know there are purists who propound the virtues of breeding not only from the same locale, but from areas within a locale in which the animals captured were close enough to conceivably have bred in the wild were they not to have been caught and bred at home. This may explain why some posts have excitedly shown that a male and a female were captured on the same night and the same rock cut, or at least on the same cut within a short time span, of perhaps several days, or even a year or two apart. I can't begin to tell you how many times I have read on a forum or have heard someone say in West Texas, "I need a male from 9-mile cut to breed with the female I caught last year", or "I would sure love to get a wild-caught Big Hill female so I can keep my breeding program pure". I understand and respect those who wish to structure their collections and breeding this way. I believe the majority of the purists, from what I have been able to discern, are understanding of those who prefer to go for the "looks" obtainable through slective breeding of non-locale animals. Somehow there has developed a sense of higher value in the trade for locale-specific graybands, which as you stated is not the case with several other popular herps on the market. This is a very unique species that has long attracted the attention and imagination of thousands who have been willing to spend all of their vacations in search of this sometimes elusive, but ever fascinating herp.

Somehow there has developed a sense of higher value in the trade for locale-specific graybands, which as you stated is not the case with several other popular herps on the market.

Could it be the "sense of higher value" is perpetuated by those who stand to gain the most from said sense?

alterna used to be fairly expensive. Now, I can get a "mutt" (i.e. a non-locale-specific) for around $40 (maybe less).

Rosy boas have similar locale-specific pricing. With corns, you have "Okeetee" corns, but this seems to refer not to locale but to appearance.

I'd be interested in seeing a timeline of how and when the concept of "locale specific" developed.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

>>Could it be the "sense of higher value" is perpetuated by those who stand to gain the most from said sense?

Possibly. I think breeders like Ric Blair and Dan Johnson may have set the stage for what we see today. And more power to them...I'm all for capitalism. Further, they are both reputable breeders with a passion for what they do, and both have fantastic collections.

>>I'd be interested in seeing a timeline of how and when the concept of "locale specific" developed.

Ric Blair can probably answer this one. Tom Boyden may have been one of the first to offer locale alterna.

Personally, I stand to benefit from locale fever, as 99% of my collection is locale specific.

Maybe I'll come up with a term for selective bred progeny...like "Brewster Beauties."

I wouldn't say that the "mutts' are better looking. The typical generic alterna is usually a blairs phase with varying shades of orange and gray typical of snakes of the eastern part of their range. Selective breeding of locality snakes produce the best looking snakes that are not typically seen. Just take a look at the alterna page photo's and you will see many, many snakes that would be hard to find in a generic snake. Plus, it takes a lot more work to find and breed the locality snakes and in turn is much more rewarding than throwing any two snakes together.

Neat conversation and also some really interesting observations from you folks. As some of you may know my collection is slanted towards the pituophis group. We in the pit section of the hobby are pretty rabid about the locales and/or purity of our pits. also. Currently we are only keeping 7 pairs of alterna, all of which are locale specific, my favorite one of all of them is a Val Verde County light phase blari female that is super light that we collectted on the dirt portion of pandale a number of years ago. Not I guess worth the most money, but still my personal favorite.

To me locale specific is important only from the standpoint that usually by having animals from a specific area, I can selectively breed for specific characteristics such as speckling or clean ground color etc. etc. This applies for me in Alterna, Pituophis or any other animal. Additionally it is kind of neat to have in my collection animals representing certain areas that are really difficult to collect in and have them represented in the collection.

Although I must admit that it seems that my difficult area is everyone elses easy spots. LOL For example in 22 years of hunting West Texas I still have not collected an alterna on the juno road. Numerous Val Verde County, 277, US 90's, sanderson and several west Texas areas, but no Juno. Oh well that is the way it goes.

I just hope that Alterna and/or Pit folks will never get to the point that the Corn Folks have where an Okeetee Corn referrs to a color phase instead of corns from Okeetee swamp or the hunt club itself. That has been a point of concern to me for several years and is a loss of that bit of our history that diminishes the hobby for new folks.

Just my thoughts,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms

>>I wouldn't say that the "mutts' are better looking.

Some are, some are not.

>>The typical generic alterna is usually a blairs phase with varying shades of orange and gray typical of snakes of the eastern part of their range.

Yes, sometimes, but a generic could be a Black Gap bred to a River Rd.

>>Selective breeding of locality snakes produce the best looking snakes that are not typically seen.

Not necessarily...an Alpine animal bred to a Hueco tanks animal might produce the best thing we've ever seen...or not.

>>Just take a look at the alterna page photo's and you will see many, many snakes that would be hard to find in a generic snake.

I have looked at every image on the alterna page more than once. While it's true that there are outstanding examples of locale-specific animals, I contend that selective breeding of locale-specific animals from different areas can produce equally nice, if not nicer animals...at least some of the time.

Plus, it takes a lot more work to find and breed the locality snakes and in turn is much more rewarding than throwing any two snakes together.

I agree that finding any alterna is difficult, more so in some localities. They are all easy to breed, and selective breeding doesn't mean throwing any two snakes together. And as far as the reward goes, I suppose beauty is, as always, in the eye of the beholder.

I think I posted on this topic some years back, however, as long as locale vs. generic is on the table, when do some of you "draw the line" between locale and or not? Some need the snakes from the same road cut while others feel it's OK from the next road cut or 2-3 road cuts away. Would you take an "S" curve Juno Rd alterna and breed it to a "north of Baker's crossing animal? They're both Juno Rd. Or how about an "S" curve with an animal just 1-2 miles north of there? Still Juno Rd. The same can be said about all of the roads throughout the range. When do you say, "yes, it's possible they could've found each other here, but just around the bend, forget it. I realize there is no clear delineation but what's the general consensus?

Best....
Jim

When do you say, "yes, it's possible they could've found each other here, but just around the bend, forget it. I realize there is no clear delineation but what's the general consensus?

I wonder if anybody goes by topograhical maps to determine the likelihood of the snakes meeting each other by virtue of branches off the same main draw vs. pure geographical distance.

Then again, being off the same road cut to me would imply the two snakes could be siblings and produce inferior offspring. Yes?
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Hi Chris,

Good questions!!!

I suppose someone might use topo maps "to determine the likelihood of the snakes meeting each other by virtue of branches off the same main draw vs. pure geographical distance." but that would imply that we had real data on movement patterns. It certainly has a thoughtful premise, but there have been no scientific studies completed that would illuminate why they move when, and how far they go when they do move?

Secondly, your implication regarding siblings breeding siblings "produces inferior stock" may also turn out to be less of a problem than expected. Again, no real data for alterna inbreeding exists that I know of (please correct me if there has been studies of multiple generation inbreeding in alterna published). We are acquiring preliminary data that inbreeding may be occuring in wild rattlesnake populations, and it certainly has shown different results in herps than birds and mammals. Again, the data are not available to be sure.

So getting two 10 feet apart may, or may not, be any better, or worse, than getting them a mile apart? In the meantime, just getting two suits me just fine!! Thanks!!!

Since this species can be subterranean, I wonder what kind of a "highway" they have that we don't see between the cuts or rockslides, etc?
Best...
Jim

In Limestone?????? LOL!!

Good thought! There's so much we can only guess about.

Plus, it takes a lot more work to find and breed the locality snakes and in turn is much more rewarding than throwing any two snakes together.

If we were really concerned about the genetic purity of locality snakes, we wouldn't breed them the way we do.

How many locality pure breeders would chose to breed a speckled black gap female to a speckled black gap male, even though they had other non-speckled black gap males available? Snakes don't make these sorts of choices in the wild (I doubt very seriously that snakes practive positive assortment for pattern variations the way we artificially force them to in captivity). Furthermore, by choosing to mate similar looking locality animals, you are probably increasing the amount of inbreeding in your line as those similar lookings snakes are more likely to be related.

If you really wanted to maintain the "purity" of a locality line, you should ensure that all matings are random - you could use dice to determine matings - so maybe the dark ugly alterna phase BG male gets to breed the screamer speckled female. And possibly, you never get to match up your "dream pair" of locality screamers. But we don't breed snakes this way. We generally have an ulterior motive of producing a particular "locality phenotype" that we like or think we could sell for more money.

There is nothing wrong with that, but once you start that kind of artificial selection, the "purity" of your gene pool is out the window anyway. Why not just breed you most speckled male to your most speckled female, regardless of locality?

Then again, with alterna, I think this is a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". There are some good "locality" snakes being bred and enough non-locality pretty snakes to satisfy the deli cup herpers.

I guess I just disagree with the idea that breeding locality snakes implies some level of alterna sophistication.
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Chris Harrison

An interesting question and one that has recently begun occupying more and more of my time. My wife and I are molecular biologists (I dont work in a lab anymore but rather teach HS biology) and we have recently been searching primary journal articles on snake genetics and phylogeography.

One thing has always been clear in my mind - humans want things to fit into nice neat catagories and most of the time they dont. Sometimes morphology suggests one taxonomy while genetics suggests another. Even if we see a genetic difference how much variation should demand reclassification or determine locality?

What about past intergrades that have relocated themselves back into one or another gene pool? What about migration-certainly snakes, just like every other organism, have migrated to locations that contained another dominant gene pool and have been gentically integrated.

Coloration, seemingly the most common way herp owners classify snakes, is a problematic way to classify animals when you think that coloration may be only a couple of genes in a genome of 30-50,000 genes. Scale counts, saddle numbers etc etc seem to have wide ranges of variation even within well defined boundaries.

Keep in mind that I am not an expert on alterna or any other snake for that matter. I do have some local specific alterna that have a known origin and well documented lineage. I have seen almost identical snakes from other locales. I also have Thayeri, which are without question genetic mutts. Included in my diverse collection are also blood pythons that seem to currently enjoy taxonomic/locale confusion as well.

Our drive to classify snakes is in part due to our desire to put things into nice neat catagories, but I suspect that the desire to drive up prices has also had something to do with taxonomic ambiguity. An air of exclusivity comes with a well defined and neccessarily smaller population. And certainly it is worth noting that much locale specific or taxonomic confusion has been born of people like me who are simply trying to understand and benefit the animals in our care.

SteveF