Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A lot of posts lately have been on the subject of data keeping and recoreds of existing captive stocks. Also a lot of us are discussing the possible eventual need to release captive born stock into the wild. I have a great idea that naturally won't go anywhere because the government would need to be involved.

What if we had a list of specific, known and proven, drymarchon breeders that could breed indigos specifically for reintroduction back into the wild. One could get a specific permit from the government to get a pair of wild indigos. Breed them and release them back into the wild. Details of coarse would need to be worked out as to things like: Do we release the gravid female or just the babies after they hatch? Do we keep the breeding stock or release them and hope to catch others for the following years project? Who would get the permits to catch the breeding stock. Would they always be released back into the exact area that the parents came from or would we want to restock other areas that have had a decline in indigo population?

This would involve lots of work and costs with no ability to recoup that money because no babies could be kept and sold. However, I would bet there are plenty of us who would volunteer to do it.

Any other thoughts?

Chuck

Chuck, I think its a great idea and it has been done with some degree of success with other "head start" herp programs (blandings turtle is the first herp that comes to mind where this is currently being done; and, eastern massasaugas). Those of us who breed couperi, with the exception of a few, work with this species NOT for the money (because you won't make money breeding indigos) but rather for the pure fascination of working with such an amazing creature. So, breeding captive "wild" animals for the sole purpose of releasing started hatchlings would be wonderful even if we were losing money in the evnture. Obviously, there are a number of logistic to get through but at some point, the government and private individuals need to take a chance. What I fear is the prospect of "mass producing" this species in a captive setting for the sole purpose of economic gain; I just don't think that this is the species to do this with because this promotes selling inferior animals for the almight buck. Do I sell indigos? Yes. Does that make me hypocritical? NO, not in the least because I sell VERY FEW (probably less than 10% of what I hatch out, the rest get donated to nature centers, museums, zoos, etc. and the proceeds go towards conservation efforts).

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

Chuck ,

Long time no talk to my friend... Captive reproduction and reintroduction efforts have been discussed on this forum in the not to distant past. I tend to agree with rob that in terms of makeing money DRYMARCHON are definetly not the vehicle you use if you want to. I have lost MUCH more than I have made over the years, have sold stellar animals, and also sold ones that failed to thrive and werent so stellar also.(ALWAYS a huge mistake) I think that gearing 40% of the efforts of those that breed and prouce Drymarchon succesfully into Wild Reintroduction programs might be an excellent thing. It would destroy the incentive of profit and turn it into one of true concern for this great reptiles future in the U.S.A. Of course,I can only speak for myself, telling others what to do with their Couperi is not within the scope of my authority or beleif(Other than cross breeding them...THEN I get vocal and rather nasty, as you well know! grrrrrr!)

Question that are raised from captive reintroductions include the chance that captive bred snakes will pass pathogens, viruses, etc into existing wild populations and potentially cause a DECLINE in Couperi numbers. I know that reintroudction of Calif Desert Tortises into existing wild populations had a negative impact because of respiratory virus found in captive bred stock. I'm NOT sure if the same could be said to be true of Couperi.This needs to be fully studied.

Be that as it may, I think it worthy of consideration and, frankly think it would lead to more emphasis on quality production of Couperi and quality control of the potential offspring.And it would insure that this snake does not become a mass maket product, as many people that havent bred them are NOW trying their hands...with dolars signs in their eyes, though their are many also that are just enamored with the snake for what it is...a national treasure.

Ill call you this week to dicuss these very same things. Am up near your way now Man it is cold on the coast! Brrr

Take care and Merry Christmas to you and yours,

God Bless You,

Fredrick Albury

I keep hearing people use the possibility of introducing disease into wild populations as one of the primary reasons for not re-introducing captive offspring into the wild and I agree that it would be devastating should that happen.

So, my question is this. Why couldn't any offspring targeted for such a project be quarantined, monitored and tested for diseases over a given period, perhaps 6 months, to insure that they are healthy prior to release?

Eric

"What if we had a list of specific, known and proven, drymarchon breeders that could breed indigos specifically for reintroduction back into the wild. One could get a specific permit from the government to get a pair of wild indigos. Breed them and release them back into the wild. Details of coarse would need to be worked out as to things like: Do we release the gravid female or just the babies after they hatch? Do we keep the breeding stock or release them and hope to catch others for the following years project? Who would get the permits to catch the breeding stock. Would they always be released back into the exact area that the parents came from or would we want to restock other areas that have had a decline in indigo population?"

as much as i desire to be optimistic when i comes to indigo survival and conservation, i can't see wildlife officials buying into this. i'm not sure you could convince them that lack of reproduction among individuals in a population was the problem. habitat loss seems to be the largest current problem.

how could we get involved in helping to buy up land to set aside for indigo habitat. this seems like something that the nature conservancy should be interested in. the argument for increased conservation efforts may be strengthened by couperi being raised to species status.

just a couple pennies...

matt

Chuck, Rob,

This is part in parcel what I and OH had envisioned regarding D. couperi., and eventually all Dry's. Neither OH or I are able to keep D. couperi but sometimes those that can not do....teach, or perhaps reach.

Not to say that we couldn't sucessfully keep and breed these wonderful animals it's just that given our residence, it's cumbersome (dare I say impossible) to be permitted to do so.

That having been said, I feel that it is unavoidable that they (captive population) will be re-introduced. Eventually.

The better handle we (as a community) have on our own situation the better off we will be if re-introduction becomes an option.

Right now we don't even know what we don't know, much less what we need to know to make a valid case.

Like any labor of love, there is a cost associated with the endeavor. That cost may be time, it may be knowledge, it may be funds, it may be a combo of the three and something not yet captured. Point is, gotta start somewhere.

Why not here and now?

Regards,
Jeff Nichols

The biggest concern with this would be the introduction of disease into the wild population.

This has already happened with the gopher tortoise.

I would think if it ever comes down to it, the best option would be to have them bred at a facility that is closely monitored by the USFWS. People like us may be best used as consultants in such a venture.

I have been through this debate before and while I agree fully with the concept, everytime I have addressed Gov reps (Fish and Game) they dismiss the idea because;

(1) The lack of genetic diversity would burn out the released populations after a few generations.

(2) They are concerned with polluting local gene pools.

(3) The intoduction of a genetic weakness, or a disease in wild stock.

(4) They feel these re-introductions would themselves be unsuccessful.

Because of the successful introduction of several "alien" herps to my area, I am inclined to disagree with them.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Anyone that has grown up in South Florida has seen how many exotic species can absolutely thrive. I've heard this gene pool contamination issue raised before. Ironically, Florida game officials have bred Texas cougars with native Florida panthers to supposedly add some genetic diversity to a relict population that is supposedly showing inbreeding traits. If they are using this argument against reptile introduction, they certainly do a big flip-flop when it comes to a more "glamourous" mammal. I'm curious what Paul Moler, who is Florida's head herp biologist(the last I heard) has to say on this subject.

Anyone that has grown up in South Florida has seen how many exotic species can absolutely thrive.

The fact that some rather plastic species survive does not imply that any species that is introduced will survive. There are lots of species of herps (and other vertebrates) that have been released in southern Florida that have failed to survive.

Eastern Indigos are dying out for several reasons. Until those reasons are clearly known, releasing captive bred babies dooms them to the same fate.

I've heard this gene pool contamination issue raised before. Ironically, Florida game officials have bred Texas cougars with native Florida panthers to supposedly add some genetic diversity to a relict population that is supposedly showing inbreeding traits. If they are using this argument against reptile introduction, they certainly do a big flip-flop when it comes to a more "glamourous" mammal.

It has little to do with the glamor of the species. The FL panther is so critically endangered that it is on the verge of extinction. In a last ditch effort to preserve the population, people felt it was worth the risk of contamination to bolster the gene pool with some outside blood. But that won't fix the problem. There isn't enough room in south FL for people and panthers and the little bit of room that is left for panthers is being destroyed from the outside.

I would love to see the eastern indigo succesfully become reestablished. But frankly, there are probably enough indigos in the wild to do this on their own if the causes of their decline are removed.

Reintroductions just don't work. Man, it would be great if they did, but they almost never do. That is why agencies are disinclined to seek that solution to the problem. They tend to choose the approach of protecting what is left and trying to mitigate the conditions that are leading to their inability to increase in number.

And if, by some chance, the appropriate agencies decided that a massive captive bred reintroduction was necessary, there are plenty of preapproved zoos, etc., that already have agreements with the agencies to provide good stock with known provenance. Furthermore, it is much easier for wildlife agencies to monitor the fate of cb babies that came from zoos, etc.

The captive population in the hands of private breeders does not have any sort of acceptible provenance and the wildlife agencies are not going to participate in any program that is funded, in part, by the sale of listed species. I think the hobbyist may have a chance to participate in such a program (again, in the slim chance that it would ever be established) only by supplementing the bloodlines available to the breeding institutions (occasional breeder loans to zoos).

Donating money to preserve/restore habitat is a much more direct way for the hobbyist to impact indigo survival, IMHO.
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Chris Harrison

...it doesn't necessarily handle the reason(s) the snakes became rare or extirpated. Obviously a healthy population has no need for new specimens. A declining population would probably not benefit much, as whatever reason the snakes were declining in the first place (vehicle traffic, raccoons, people shooting them, habitat alteration, etc) would still be present. In areas where indigos are absent, re-introduction seems like it may work, if the habitat is suitable, and the original reason for extirpation is no longer an issue. That just what I think...

Perhaps it is because such programs are placed upon the shoulders of zoological and academic entities. There are plenty of them willing to take on the challenge of such projects, especially when funding is made available for such through grants.
Also, zoological and academic entities are regulated internally, already having protocols in place, regarding the captive husbandry of threatened and endangered animals, such as those outlined within the AZA Species Survival Program (SSP) for zoological institutions, a major reason zoological entities maintain their accreditation. I know of at least six zoological entities with D. couperi which were confiscated from poachers
In short, it’s just too difficult to keep an eye on individuals, and enforcement agencies are always looking for a simpler way of enforcing an ever growing list of species requiring protection, while most see only minute increases in the number of personnel and budget for such services.
Another consideration would be such programs and services aren’t free and most politicians will cringe at the thought of requesting a tax hike to raise resources for something like reptiles. The big programs, and therefore dollars, are more focused upon game animals, which convey revenue to the state via hunting and fishing licenses.

Jeff