Reptile & Amphibian Forums

...Okay I want to get some discussion going here. I think that 99% of captive snake health problems are caused by human errors. If you provide the right environment and food the snakes will be fine. Your opinions and comments?
...When I first started keeping snakes back in the 60s we had a hard time keeping snakes alive more than a few years. I had a few that lasted more than 3 years but they were the exceptions. There were snakes in zoo collections that did better but we private keepers actually were pretty clueless about how to keep snakes healthy in captivity. There were zero books that had detailed information about keeping different species healthy. There were only a handful of books about snakes and all of them had fair to excellent information about identifying snakes and about their natural history but very little about the details of captive husbandry. Much of what we private keepers learned came from experimenting with caging, substrates, heating, lighting etc. People shared information and advances were made. During the 70s and into the 80s there were more and more good books that had detailed information about keeping the different species healthy in captivity. Many of us were able to captive breed some of the colubrids during the 60s but there were no private snake keepers who could relaibly and repeatedly breed any of the boids. I actually had freshly captured colubrids breed and reproduce as early as 1964. I did not know anyone who had successfully bred any boids except for a few cases of Bci that seemed to breed and reproduce sporadically. The people who were lucky enough to have a litter of Boa Constrictors could not count on repeating their success. Virtually all of the boids offered for sale were imported WC animals. The learning curve for breeding boids followed about a decade behind the learning curve for keeping snakes healthy in captivity. The first books that had accurate boid captive breeding information came out in the late 1970s. Many species of boids were captive bred for the first time in the 80s and 90s. There are still a very few taxon that have not been captive bred. There is still plenty that we do not know about breeding even the commonly bred species. What I have learned over the last 40 years is how to keep snakes alive and healthy for a long time in captivity and how to breed them with limited suceess. When I do have snake health problem it is almost always related to something I have done trying to encourage them to reproduce. BTW, to some extent the eastern Europeans were a decade or two ahead of the rest of the world in keeping and breeding snakes in captivity. Some of the earliest detailed husbandry information was published in Polish and German. Opinions and comments?
Jeff

Hey Jeff, I couldn't agree more, i started keeping herps in the early to mid 80's, my mid teens. Good husbandry info was hard to find and as we see things now, less than accurate. I got out of herps in the mid 90's so i could focus on life, work, family. I just started keeping herps again last winter, i was very surprised at the advancements in the hobby, both from husbandry aspects as well as the breeding accomplishments, and availability of animals that were once considered rare in personal collections. Yes, i believe if my critters end up with a problem then i have errored somehow. Although with all the info available here and at other forums, i've been able to avoid such problems thus far. Clint

...is how much I agree with you.

There is a lot of information available right now. We see so many sad senerios unfold on these forums....people asking the important questions after they are long over due for answers. I think this is the result of purchasing snakes on impulse. There is a lot of "I just got a boa, now what do I do...," going on...when the research should be done before making that commitment.

Husbandry IS the common denominator for health and longevity. Lack of information, or neglecting to use information IS the cause of most health problems in reptiles. Tropical animals cannot run on auto pilot in the northern hemisphere!

I've had examples of bad...even sickening husbandry delivered to my door step. I've seen turn arounds in seemingly lost causes because of effort...the formula for results is: Information Application= result! The abscence of results is shown in posts like..."I don't know why my 8ft bci strikes at me...but I'll move him out of this 30 gallon aquarium when I get the money..." Don't laugh, I saw this on the Boa forum just a few days ago. Planning ahead. Following through. That is how you find the sweet spot.

Chris O

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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

.

I can say that I have not had an active interest in snakes for more than 3 years. I kept my corn fed, cleaned, watered, and warm for quite a while before my interests truly emerged with the purchase of my first pair of brb's. I basically did the impulse buy thing although I had wanted one even when I bought that little corn I kept for 13 at least 13 yrs. I thought about it overnight and gave the pet store owner a hundred bucks to "hold them for a few weeks". I was amazed that I searched online for 6 to 8 hours over a period of a few days and found very limited specific info about the BRB's. I stumbled across your webpage and the Just Rainbows Forum. A dozen or so caresheets were very similar to yours...basically copied with a few changes here and there. (Maybe you copied them? No, I don't think so.) Some had and still have some strange specifics. I was able to find the info I felt comfortable with in plenty of time to set-up my stuff weeks before the snakes came home. I strongly believe if I had relied soley on the original info the pet store told me they would be in poor health or dead.

I am not experienced enough to KNOW that 99% of problems come from environmental errors, however I do believe that it is very sound reasoning. As my experience increases I see more truth in your statement.

But, I also think that an snake in a captive environment is very unnatural for it. I think at times genetic factors come into play. Whether a genetic weakness is caused by human error or just a natural occurrance I can not conclude. Most of all the offspring of a creature in it's natural environmet will die. They are not expected to live. We can also conclude that situations such as pollution, introduction of non-native species, and expansion of human habitats are all human error to some degree.

I have cats. Many cats. They eat the same food. they drink the smae water. They [bleep] in the same litterboxes, they are exposed to the same environment as the others in the household. I had a pair of sibling kitties, a male and a female. The male lived to 15. The female was euthanized due to renal failure at age 10. Did I do something to cause this? Probably not. She was likely inheritly (SP?) deficient in the kidney area somehow. They had the same genetic background. Ones kidneys just wore out sooner. Okay actually, that's a bad example. Cats can be fathered by multiple males. But, I think you can see where I'm coming from. The husbandry can be what we consider perfect.....[bleep] still happens sometimes.

I absolutely think all aspects should be as close to perfect as possible. I also think what is perfect today could be different in 10 more years. You basically stated (IMO) that the techniques have changed dramatically with the introduction of communication. We have an amazing
ability to access information within minutes that used to take weeks to accomplish. (internet/mail/phone)and it doesn't cost much of anything. We are really fortunate.

I am having a troubled breeding season (as you know, thanks for you answer by the way). I can honestly say that I am learning more from my errors this season than the last year when things were following a pattern. My pair of BRB's have increased in numbers dramatically in the last 18 months...and so will my experience. I will have to make many mistakes to learn. Errors are a great teachers when they can be admitted to. I learn many things from knowing what NOT to do. Unfortunately errors aren't great teachers unless made by oneself.

How's that? Any thing to discuss? I love discussion. Thanks for the topic. This forum is a bit too slow for me. Don't get me wrong....I still love it!

Linda Misch
(no edit was used)
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"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

Linda,
...We just recently lost our female cat. She was 15. Actually she was Karen's cat and I never really liked her. The cat, not my wife. I know that you are a Vet Tech and probably know alot (actually a whole lot) more about healthy diets for cats than I do but don't you think that there must be something about the diets that we provide for our cats (and our dogs and ourselves too BTW) that has a lot to do with longevity. I know that there are all sorts of expensive cat foods, many of them only availble from Vets, that are supposed to be the ideal cat diet and if I go to five different vets with a new kitty I am likely to leave their offices with some very different cat food recommendations. Who knows, for sure what is the best diet for domestic felines? And (gee I am long winded tonight) did your female cat ever get sick or have an infection that was treated with antibiotics? Just thinking out loud here ..........antibiotics=nephrotoxicity ......sick cat=cat not readily drinking enough H2O.....dehydration=possible kidney damage???????
Jeff

>>I can say that I have not had an active interest in snakes for more than 3 years. I kept my corn fed, cleaned, watered, and warm for quite a while before my interests truly emerged with the purchase of my first pair of brb's. I basically did the impulse buy thing although I had wanted one even when I bought that little corn I kept for 13 at least 13 yrs. I thought about it overnight and gave the pet store owner a hundred bucks to "hold them for a few weeks". I was amazed that I searched online for 6 to 8 hours over a period of a few days and found very limited specific info about the BRB's. I stumbled across your webpage and the Just Rainbows Forum. A dozen or so caresheets were very similar to yours...basically copied with a few changes here and there. (Maybe you copied them? No, I don't think so.) Some had and still have some strange specifics. I was able to find the info I felt comfortable with in plenty of time to set-up my stuff weeks before the snakes came home. I strongly believe if I had relied soley on the original info the pet store told me they would be in poor health or dead.
>>
>>I am not experienced enough to KNOW that 99% of problems come from environmental errors, however I do believe that it is very sound reasoning. As my experience increases I see more truth in your statement.
>>
>>But, I also think that an snake in a captive environment is very unnatural for it. I think at times genetic factors come into play. Whether a genetic weakness is caused by human error or just a natural occurrance I can not conclude. Most of all the offspring of a creature in it's natural environmet will die. They are not expected to live. We can also conclude that situations such as pollution, introduction of non-native species, and expansion of human habitats are all human error to some degree.
>>
>>I have cats. Many cats. They eat the same food. they drink the smae water. They [bleep] in the same litterboxes, they are exposed to the same environment as the others in the household. I had a pair of sibling kitties, a male and a female. The male lived to 15. The female was euthanized due to renal failure at age 10. Did I do something to cause this? Probably not. She was likely inheritly (SP?) deficient in the kidney area somehow. They had the same genetic background. Ones kidneys just wore out sooner. Okay actually, that's a bad example. Cats can be fathered by multiple males. But, I think you can see where I'm coming from. The husbandry can be what we consider perfect.....[bleep] still happens sometimes.
>>
>>I absolutely think all aspects should be as close to perfect as possible. I also think what is perfect today could be different in 10 more years. You basically stated (IMO) that the techniques have changed dramatically with the introduction of communication. We have an amazing
>>ability to access information within minutes that used to take weeks to accomplish. (internet/mail/phone)and it doesn't cost much of anything. We are really fortunate.
>>
>>I am having a troubled breeding season (as you know, thanks for you answer by the way). I can honestly say that I am learning more from my errors this season than the last year when things were following a pattern. My pair of BRB's have increased in numbers dramatically in the last 18 months...and so will my experience. I will have to make many mistakes to learn. Errors are a great teachers when they can be admitted to. I learn many things from knowing what NOT to do. Unfortunately errors aren't great teachers unless made by oneself.
>>
>>How's that? Any thing to discuss? I love discussion. Thanks for the topic. This forum is a bit too slow for me. Don't get me wrong....I still love it!
>>
>>Linda Misch
>>no edit was used)
>>-----
>>"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

It just got erased after much typing. Damn cat.

...I think about writing short replies and then I get into the reply. I write a bunch and then go to check on something in a book and when I come back kingsnake.com has timed out and dropped everything I had typed. I should put a limit on the length of my replies.
Jeff

>>It just got erased after much typing. Damn cat.

When I get long-winded, I write my post in word and then copy and paste it....
Just an idea...Chris O
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

"don't you think that there must be something about the diets that we provide for our cats (and our dogs and ourselves too BTW) that has a lot to do with longevity."

Yes, absolutely. I think of all the variables that can be controlled diet is the most important. Second is the environment. These statements somewhat are a catch 22 though. One affects the other in such a dramatic way that it is almost impossible to say which comes first.

I also completely agree with you about the 5 clinics recommending 5 different diets as the best choice. I currently buy my feeders locally. In the city I live there are 2 main suppliers, both purchase from a different breeder. I want the healthiest mice and rats to feed to my snakes. I pay more 95% of the time to buy from the store whose stock appears healthier. They are smaller in size by comparison, but they never have wounds on them and they always have solid stools. The other store's are almost a whole size larger cost 20 cents less and sometimes have what I consider a not so good stool. I almost always choose to pay more for what appears to be the healthier source of food. Clinics such as ours, as you well know, are offered all these "too good to be passed up" incentive programs to push their brand of food. Some of them are pretty good. Who's to say if Purina's Pro Plan is a better choice than Eukanuba or that Hill's/Science Diet is better than IVD? I don't think anyone can honestly do that. What works in your situation while providing the results you want to attain is probably the best choice for your situation. I do think you get what you pay for as far as commercials diets most the time. It is impossible to have the same the quality of ingredients in a 40lb bag of dogfood that sells for 10 as the one that sells for 35. I am known to be anti-Hill's by the reps they send to me to try and sell food. Although I like and have experience with almost all their diets, am authorized to purchase, and take their "free food" coupons, I am a tough sell for them. Personally I don't like Science Diet, but do like their Perscription products.

I've been kinda long-winded myself lately...don't get me started on Hill's products. It's pretty far off topic and I'll have to stay awake at night reading if I get started.

I can't beleive the comments you received on this topic. I actually thought they'd be much more diverse. Personally I think it's difficult to discuss without at least looking at one's own mistakes. This is very difficult for most people. The blissful "I couldn't have done anything wrong" is much easier to accept. All we can really do is seek a higher level of understanding. When a solution is searched for an answer will come. I't just frustrating waiting.

Linda
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"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

I probably used big gun AB's in the treatment of the cat at some time. They certainly could have caused premature renal problems. I can't remember for sure and her medical records are buried in the "archives". I treat to produce results for today within reason. Who's to say whether a slug of gentocin caused a problem 6 or 8 years down the road? Who's to say that a non drinking cat was created by the AB's or if the AB's created less damge by lowering a fever to produce a drinking response? I'm just not certain anyone knows the answers. It's the age old question IMO of which comes first...chicken or egg?

Good topic,
Linda
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"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

>>"don't you think that there must be something about the diets that we provide for our cats (and our dogs and ourselves too BTW) that has a lot to do with longevity."
>>
>>Yes, absolutely. I think of all the variables that can be controlled diet is the most important. Second is the environment. These statements somewhat are a catch 22 though. One affects the other in such a dramatic way that it is almost impossible to say which comes first.
>>
>>I also completely agree with you about the 5 clinics recommending 5 different diets as the best choice. I currently buy my feeders locally. In the city I live there are 2 main suppliers, both purchase from a different breeder. I want the healthiest mice and rats to feed to my snakes. I pay more 95% of the time to buy from the store whose stock appears healthier. They are smaller in size by comparison, but they never have wounds on them and they always have solid stools. The other store's are almost a whole size larger cost 20 cents less and sometimes have what I consider a not so good stool. I almost always choose to pay more for what appears to be the healthier source of food. Clinics such as ours, as you well know, are offered all these "too good to be passed up" incentive programs to push their brand of food. Some of them are pretty good. Who's to say if Purina's Pro Plan is a better choice than Eukanuba or that Hill's/Science Diet is better than IVD? I don't think anyone can honestly do that. What works in your situation while providing the results you want to attain is probably the best choice for your situation. I do think you get what you pay for as far as commercials diets most the time. It is impossible to have the same the quality of ingredients in a 40lb bag of dogfood that sells for 10 as the one that sells for 35. I am known to be anti-Hill's by the reps they send to me to try and sell food. Although I like and have experience with almost all their diets, am authorized to purchase, and take their "free food" coupons, I am a tough sell for them. Personally I don't like Science Diet, but do like their Perscription products.
>>
>>I've been kinda long-winded myself lately...don't get me started on Hill's products. It's pretty far off topic and I'll have to stay awake at night reading if I get started.
>>
>>I can't beleive the comments you received on this topic. I actually thought they'd be much more diverse. Personally I think it's difficult to discuss without at least looking at one's own mistakes. This is very difficult for most people. The blissful "I couldn't have done anything wrong" is much easier to accept. All we can really do is seek a higher level of understanding. When a solution is searched for an answer will come. I't just frustrating waiting.
>>
>>Linda
>>-----
>>"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

Linda,
....The more I learn about things the more I know that I don't know about them. It took me a long long time to figure this out. Women probably figure it out quicker than men.
....Catfood companies give incentives to Vets to sell their products??? I AM SHOCKED!!!! I never need to buy a ball point pen. The drug companies have given me enough for two lifetimes.
LMAO,
Jeff

>>>>"don't you think that there must be something about the diets that we provide for our cats (and our dogs and ourselves too BTW) that has a lot to do with longevity."
>>>>
>>>>Yes, absolutely. I think of all the variables that can be controlled diet is the most important. Second is the environment. These statements somewhat are a catch 22 though. One affects the other in such a dramatic way that it is almost impossible to say which comes first.
>>>>
>>>>I also completely agree with you about the 5 clinics recommending 5 different diets as the best choice. I currently buy my feeders locally. In the city I live there are 2 main suppliers, both purchase from a different breeder. I want the healthiest mice and rats to feed to my snakes. I pay more 95% of the time to buy from the store whose stock appears healthier. They are smaller in size by comparison, but they never have wounds on them and they always have solid stools. The other store's are almost a whole size larger cost 20 cents less and sometimes have what I consider a not so good stool. I almost always choose to pay more for what appears to be the healthier source of food. Clinics such as ours, as you well know, are offered all these "too good to be passed up" incentive programs to push their brand of food. Some of them are pretty good. Who's to say if Purina's Pro Plan is a better choice than Eukanuba or that Hill's/Science Diet is better than IVD? I don't think anyone can honestly do that. What works in your situation while providing the results you want to attain is probably the best choice for your situation. I do think you get what you pay for as far as commercials diets most the time. It is impossible to have the same the quality of ingredients in a 40lb bag of dogfood that sells for 10 as the one that sells for 35. I am known to be anti-Hill's by the reps they send to me to try and sell food. Although I like and have experience with almost all their diets, am authorized to purchase, and take their "free food" coupons, I am a tough sell for them. Personally I don't like Science Diet, but do like their Perscription products.
>>>>
>>>>I've been kinda long-winded myself lately...don't get me started on Hill's products. It's pretty far off topic and I'll have to stay awake at night reading if I get started.
>>>>
>>>>I can't beleive the comments you received on this topic. I actually thought they'd be much more diverse. Personally I think it's difficult to discuss without at least looking at one's own mistakes. This is very difficult for most people. The blissful "I couldn't have done anything wrong" is much easier to accept. All we can really do is seek a higher level of understanding. When a solution is searched for an answer will come. I't just frustrating waiting.
>>>>
>>>>Linda
>>>>-----
>>>>"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

More replies will make a better discussion IMO.

Linda,
....I will try to copy and paste my thread over on the Boa forum. Let's see what the response is.
Jeff

>>Linda,
>>...You know me. Nothing is ever good enough. I was pasting it over there on the Boa forum and decided I needed to rewrite some of it.
Jeff

I'm not willing to give quite 99% as a solid, verifiable figure, but I would agree it's likely to be in the 90s!
Jeff makes an excellent point, and no matter how good your husbandry is, it can get better.
I don't have any Epicrates, but I like the Peruvians a lot. Does anybody know who is producing Peruvian Rainbows?
...haven't really checked the classifieds, I'll do that...*mumble*
-----
Jeremy J. Anderson
snakepimp.com
gemstatereptiles.com
Email me!
Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
No one in the world ever gets what they want, and that is beautiful. Everybody dies frustrated and sad, and that is beautiful. - TMBG

You are correct Jeff, i start keeping reptiles in the mid 80' in Venezuela, you may think it was easier for me becasuse I kept boas from the same country with same weather, well that is what I thought back there, i used to lived in a mountain weather so it got a little bit cold at night and that when I start having problem with some of mine snakes getting neumonia, i kept snakes like that with no temperature control for a couples of year, then I start imported some reptiles books like the Ross bible, thats change everything for me just getting a heater and thermostat to control my room temp, since that I have keep my snakes in perfect condition at least that is what I think, if they eat and reproduce you are doing something right. I always said the most important thing to keep any reptiles is the right temperature then humidity and you are ready to go, sorry about my English

>>You are correct Jeff, i start keeping reptiles in the mid 80' in Venezuela, you may think it was easier for me becasuse I kept boas from the same country with same weather, well that is what I thought back there, i used to lived in a mountain weather so it got a little bit cold at night and that when I start having problem with some of mine snakes getting neumonia, i kept snakes like that with no temperature control for a couples of year, then I start imported some reptiles books like the Ross bible, thats change everything for me just getting a heater and thermostat to control my room temp, since that I have keep my snakes in perfect condition at least that is what I think, if they eat and reproduce you are doing something right. I always said the most important thing to keep any reptiles is the right temperature then humidity and you are ready to go, sorry about my English
.