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99% of Snake health problems...........

Jeff Clark Dec 06, 2004 12:12 AM

I originally posted the following on the Rainbow Boa Forum. It was suggested that I bring it over here to get more people involved in this discussion.

...Okay I want to get some discussion going here. I think that 99% of captive snake health problems are caused by human errors. If you provide the right environment and food the snakes will do fine.
...When I first started keeping snakes back in the 60s we had a hard time keeping snakes alive more than a few years. I had a few that lasted more than 3 years but they were the exceptions. There were snakes in zoo collections that did better but we private keepers actually were pretty clueless about how to keep snakes healthy in captivity. There were zero books that had detailed information about keeping different species healthy. There were only a handful of books about snakes and all of them had fair to excellent information about identifying snakes and about their natural history but very little about the details of captive husbandry. Much of what we private keepers learned came from experimenting with caging, substrates, heating, lighting etc. People shared information and advances were made. During the 70s and into the 80s there were more and more good books that had detailed information about keeping the different species healthy in captivity. Many of us were able to captive breed some of the colubrids during the 60s but there were no private snake keepers who could reliably and repeatedly breed any of the boids. I actually had freshly captured colubrids breed and reproduce as early as 1964. I did not know anyone who successfully bred any boids except for a few cases of Bci that seemed to breed and reproduce sporadically. The people who were lucky enough to have a litter of Boa Constrictors could not count on repeating their success. Virtually all of the boids offered for sale were imported WC animals. The learning curve for breeding boids followed a decade or more behind the learning curve for keeping snakes healthy in captivity. The first books (in English) that had accurate boid captive breeding information came out in the late 1970s. Many species of boids were captive bred for the first time in the 80s and 90s. There are still a very few taxon that have not been captive bred. There is still plenty that we do not know about breeding even the commonly bred species. What I have learned over the last 40 years is how to keep snakes alive and healthy for a long time in captivity and how to breed them with limited suceess. Today we are at the point when many species can be kept alive and healthy for many years. When I do have snake health problem it is almost always related to something I have done trying to encourage them to reproduce. I make a mistake and the snake gets sick. BTW, to some extent the eastern Europeans were a decade or two ahead of the rest of the world in keeping and breeding snakes in captivity. They were keeping small reptiles in terraria in their homes in fairly large numbers back in the 1930s. Some of the earliest detailed reptile husbandry information was published in Polish and German. Opinions and comments?
Jeff Clark

Replies (14)

pythonis Dec 06, 2004 02:13 AM

i think that all loving creatures are susceptible to bacteria and viruses and nothing we as humans can do to prevent that. giving a snake the perfect tank, substrate, temp, humidity, etc. will not guarantee that it will never die of (for example) cancer or kidney failure. all creatures will die and there is absolutely nothing we can do as humans to change that.

Jeff Clark Dec 06, 2004 03:30 AM

Pythonis,
...We can very much prevent infections by keeping our snakes at the proper temperature in clean cages with clean water bowls. Have you ever considered that when a snake does get cancer or renal failure it may be because of something that we were feeding it or a medication or pesticide that we treated it with? Did you ever consider that the tap water that most of us put into our snakes water bowls may have harmful chemicals in it? Did you know that some rodent breeders feed their rodents pig pellets that have tetracycline in them? Perhaps snake's renal systems cannot handle all the things that we cause them to ingest. I realize that all animals will die but I think we have a very big influence on how soon they die.
Jeff

>>i think that all loving creatures are susceptible to bacteria and viruses and nothing we as humans can do to prevent that. giving a snake the perfect tank, substrate, temp, humidity, etc. will not guarantee that it will never die of (for example) cancer or kidney failure. all creatures will die and there is absolutely nothing we can do as humans to change that.

pythonis Dec 06, 2004 04:10 AM

a "lets save the world" discussion here. you can sit here all day talking about how big bad man is destroying the planet with his chemicals and machines but it wont do a bit of good. did you know that every single chemical we have can be found in nature? and as far as your pets getting sick being blamed on your water dish that is absurd. if you feel that we humans are screwing up the lives of these reptiles then i guess we should all just go out and reintroduce our snakes and other reptiles into the wild.

Jeff Clark Dec 06, 2004 04:46 AM

Pythonis,
...I assure you I am not a tree hugger. We probably agree much more than we disagree about the environmental movement. What I am talking about is that snake health problems are caused by keepers mistakes. People who provide good husbandry do not have many health problems with their snakes. I think you are dead wrong about water dishes being the source of snake health problems. Dirty water dishes are likely the primary source of intestinal infections. Just in case your last sentence was serious...I do not screw up the lives of my snakes and have no desire to release them.
Jeff

>>a "lets save the world" discussion here. you can sit here all day talking about how big bad man is destroying the planet with his chemicals and machines but it wont do a bit of good. did you know that every single chemical we have can be found in nature? and as far as your pets getting sick being blamed on your water dish that is absurd. if you feel that we humans are screwing up the lives of these reptiles then i guess we should all just go out and reintroduce our snakes and other reptiles into the wild.

pythonis Dec 06, 2004 04:59 AM

well we may be thinking of 2 diff things here. im thinking of fatal diseases like cancer and stuff and you may be talking about mite infestations and whatnot. no i wasnt serious about the last sentence. however as far as what you said, yes we do things wrong. everyone does things wrong. its all part of who we are. we are all human and none of us is perfect. we never will be. even a topnotch herp will screw up every once in awhile. all we can do is try to continually improve and learn from our mistakes.

madisonrecords Dec 06, 2004 12:49 PM

We are all wrong for keeping these animals in captivity at all. My wife, " who is from the Jungle " asks me all the time; " Why do you keep these animals at all and don't you think that you are contributing more to the problem than the solution? " I usually try to reply with a real bright remark like; " Well, honey if the jungle gets cut down, captivity may be the last place left for them and I want to do my best to insure that my children know what they look like in real life, instead of a book. " What a " CROCK OF CRAP!! " I keep them, because I think that they are NEAT and COOL and PRETTY and if we were all BRUTALLY HONEST most of us would probably realize that 90% of reptile keepers have less than " SPIRITUAL CONVICTIONS " to have these animals at all. When it comes down to it; " We are NO BETTER than the man living in an apartment complex with a pet tiger trying to convince himself that he is contributing something to their future on this planet. That's right guys and gals, good ole Johnson Herp is going " against the grain " again. So let the bashing begin if you choose, but maybe we all need to do some serious " soul searching???????? " Until the day comes, that we all do the right thing " wich will probably never happen " we have to educate ourselves to give these animals the best care possible. Maybe, just maybe, we can start utilizing this forum for what it was designed for; " Sharing information to promote better husbandry. " It seems that now more than ever, it is used for a " PICTURE GALLERY " to promote the sell of breeders snakes. Maybe, " kingsnake " needs to start charging for posting on the forum too??? Love ya Guys!......GOD BLESS.....Johnson Herp

sslonestar Dec 06, 2004 06:31 PM

KAA'BOOOOOOOOOOM !!!
LMAO !!
I`ll chip in $100 so Gus can keep posting pics LOL!!
How many pics for a c-note ?

T/

madisonrecords Dec 06, 2004 02:17 PM

Not to long ago and I know it is probably more frequent than what most of us want to realize. A breeder that has been around for a long time, was selling " lab rats " and the people who were aquiring them , were having problems with their snakes. Lab rats, are a scary thing. They are tested with dyes and perfumes and a whole array of chemicals in the lab to test the products for human use. Meanwhile, alot of those " chemical laced " rats are making it to the Reptile Hobby! Just talking about " what to feed " itself, can become a long discussion. Of all the different things that I have tried over the years, it seems that rabbits are possibly the best. Rats, seem to put on alot of fat and feeding whole chickens can be a mess come cleaning time. Rabbits, are much more lean and most of the boas and pythons that I have seen and have raised on rabbits, seem to be much more strong and muscular.Store bought chicken, has always been something that most of us agree; " we would never feed to our boas, " but just here recently, I met a guy that has 5 pet adult columbians that he has fed store bought chicken to, for three quarters of their life and they were magnificent, strong and vibrant animals? Almost, makes you wonder?.......GOD BLESS......Johnson Herp

Chris Olson Dec 06, 2004 07:02 AM

that doesn't get used enough. You are right Jeff...most health problems in captive reptile collections are 100% preventable. The hang up is the failure to use the information that's out there.

There are no excuses in this day and age to provide proper care for snakes...only laziness, apathy, or misinformation....all of which can be overcome if the keeper decides to stay awake.

Good topic, Jeff...
Chris O
-----
www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

sslonestar Dec 06, 2004 10:43 AM

You nailed it right there !
To bad these facts arent found on "Any" Caresheets

T/

>>
>>There are no excuses in this day and age to provide proper care for snakes...only laziness, apathy, or misinformation....all of which can be overcome if the keeper decides to stay awake.
>>
>>Good topic, Jeff...
>>Chris O
>>-----
>>www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
>>Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

madisonrecords Dec 06, 2004 09:57 AM

You are right Jeff, alot of things have gotten better, especially in the last 10years, concerning keeping these animals healthy and they are definately being bred more than ever. One thing that you said was: " breeding them consistently. " Nobody is doing that, " as far as the percentages being high. " What I mean is; " If you breed 50 females and 9-10 of them produce babies and the others do not, you may get a few hundred babies, but do not all the sudden start thinking you are a breeding GOD. " If 30-40 of those females would have dropped, then maybe you would have some bragging rights and might consider putting your techniques in a book.I also notice that you said; " Alot of health problems were usually caused by breeding attempts. " I could not agree more. I am completely against cooling, I do not believe it takes cooling to breed boas. I do know that; " It takes cooling to give upper and lower respiratory problems." I also see people that still to this day, let their snakes lay around on urates " especially while they are breeding or gravid " because they think it will disturb them if you clean. It does not bother them one bit, but laying around in feces of any type will definately breed health problems. If you scroll down Jeff, we had an interesting discussion a few days ago on overfeeding. Overfeeding, I believe whole hardedly is the number ONE cause of premature death in todays Hobby. It was a pretty interesting discussion......GOD BLESS......Johnson Herp

sslonestar Dec 06, 2004 10:56 AM

and AGAIN he SCORES !!

T/

>>You are right Jeff, alot of things have gotten better, especially in the last 10years, concerning keeping these animals healthy and they are definately being bred more than ever. One thing that you said was: " breeding them consistently. " Nobody is doing that, " as far as the percentages being high. " What I mean is; " If you breed 50 females and 9-10 of them produce babies and the others do not, you may get a few hundred babies, but do not all the sudden start thinking you are a breeding GOD. " If 30-40 of those females would have dropped, then maybe you would have some bragging rights and might consider putting your techniques in a book.I also notice that you said; " Alot of health problems were usually caused by breeding attempts. " I could not agree more. I am completely against cooling, I do not believe it takes cooling to breed boas. I do know that; " It takes cooling to give upper and lower respiratory problems." I also see people that still to this day, let their snakes lay around on urates " especially while they are breeding or gravid " because they think it will disturb them if you clean. It does not bother them one bit, but laying around in feces of any type will definately breed health problems. If you scroll down Jeff, we had an interesting discussion a few days ago on overfeeding. Overfeeding, I believe whole hardedly is the number ONE cause of premature death in todays Hobby. It was a pretty interesting discussion......GOD BLESS......Johnson Herp

tigerlilie2 Dec 06, 2004 06:54 PM

I cannot agree more with the discussions from "madisonrecords" AKA Johnson Herps. He only points out the facts that people just don't want to hear about and put on the backburner. Keep up the good work even if people get a little "huffy" about them. Like the overfeeding post a couple days back. He's sometimes controversial, but like I said, its because people just don't want to admit to there mistakes in the end. Like I said in that post: "Ignorance is bliss", and frankly theres too many people on here with a little "bliss" in there lives. Ha! Keep up the good work Johnson. =)

~Andrea

sslonestar Dec 06, 2004 07:05 PM

Stupidity Should Be Painful !

T/

>> Like I said in that post: "Ignorance is bliss", and frankly theres too many people on here with a little "bliss" in there lives. Ha! Keep up the good work Johnson. =)
>>
>>
>>~Andrea
>>

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