Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know there are some states that allow the sale of hatchling turtles under 4 inches legally. I have bought hatchling turtles from Exotic Pets in Las Vegas, NV. Does anyone know all of the states that do allow the sale of hatchling turltes. I am looking for hatchling alligator snappers and softshells. Thanks.

Actually i'm not sure on this, but I think they can be sold in any state, as long as it's for "scientific or educational research", the pet shops will say that and sell them anyway. but i know for sure Ohio, West Virginia,Oklahoma, and Florida allow it.

It IS illegal in ALL states to sell turtles under 4 inches in shell length unless it is for scientific or educational purposes. That is a law at the Federal level not just individual states. For some reason things seem to get wishy washy when it comes to sellers getting some kind of tangible proof from the buyers that the turtles are for the purposes listed above.

So "technically" you CANNOT buy a turtle under 4 inches in your state or any other state unless it is for scientific or educational purpose.

I know for fact, that in Maryland it is legal to sell hatchling turtles that are 1) not native to maryland, and 2) breed by a hobbyist and not a commercial operator.

Get you fact buddy. The law most refer to is a federal law. Federal means interstate. Also, if you read the law, sale of excess offspring of hobbyist is permited.

mark

Dear Mark,

A state cannot undermine a federal regulation, although they can make the law even tougher in their own state. In fact, UNTIL LAST YEAR, there was a regulation in MD saying you COULD NOT OWN a turtle under 4". It was a health code regulation - I'll find you the COMAR when I get home tonight. Try calling up Glenn Therris at the DNR Wildlife and Heritage division and asking him.

The hobbyists in MD had to write a law last year and get it passed in the general assemly to make it legal to own baby turtles again. I know because I testified in Annapolis! But, the law says basically that it is legal under DNR regulations, but since DNR has not re-written their regs (but they are in the process), their regs still say it's illegal.

Vist the MATTS website at http://www.matts-turtles.org if you want to see a copy of the revised regulations that are proposed - DNR is thinking of making painteds, muds, musks, and redbellies class B reptiles, and requiring those that want to breed ANY species of turtle, native or not, to get a seperate permit.

Katrina
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Posted by: vidusa at Mon Jul 7 12:13:48 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I know for fact, that in Maryland it is legal to sell hatchling turtles that are 1) not native to maryland, and 2) breed by a hobbyist and not a commercial operator.

Get you fact buddy. The law most refer to is a federal law. Federal means interstate. Also, if you read the law, sale of excess offspring of hobbyist is permited.

mark

Oh, but you are right in one regard - so long as the turtles aren't being sold "in connection with a business", it is legal to sell them in other states.

Katrina

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/captive.html

MORE ABOUT COMMERCIAL TRADE

Commercial trade in native reptiles and amphibians requires a permit. A permittee may sell, offer for sale, trade, or barter any reptiles or amphibians from Lists A and B (only turtles with a carapace length of at least 4 inches) if the animals are captively produced or legally obtained from out of state. In accordance with Maryland Health Department regulations, viable turtle eggs and turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches cannot be imported, transported, sold, bartered, bred or possessed.

Here's the COMAR: https://constmail.gov.state.md.us/comar/10/10.06.01.23.htm

"D. Penalties and Seizure of Contraband Reptiles.

(1) Pursuant to Health-General Article, §§18-219 and 18-222, Annotated Code of Maryland, a person who imports, transports, sells, transfers, breeds, raises, keeps, or possesses any live turtle with a carapace length of less than 4 inches, other reptiles, or reptile eggs in violation of §§A—C of this regulation is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to a fine not exceeding $500, or imprisonment not exceeding 1 year, or both.

(2) An authorized law enforcement officer may seize a turtle with a carapace length of less than 4 inches, viable turtle and other reptile eggs, and other reptiles, which are considered a nuisance and a contraband pursuant to Health-General Article, §18-222, Annotated Code of Maryland, and §A of this regulation."

It is illegal to sell turtles under 4" in any state. It is a US dept. of agriculture law (enforced or not nationwide). There is a clause in the law that allows the sale of baby turtles for "educational or scientific purposes". This is how many people skirt the law. However, people do sometimes get busted for this, especially when they are obviously selling them to 10 year old people. There is a pet store in my area that gets away with it by giving away hatchling red eared sliders if you purchase a $90 10 gallon tank set-up.

What a rip 90 dollars for a 10 gal. Geez

Actually, it's an FDA regulation.

Giving away a baby turtle with a purchase is technically illegal as well.

Katrina

You're right...FDA. I don't know why I wrote USDA...I know better.

As long as no money is exchanged for the direct purchase of a turtle under 4", I believe that it is quite legal to "give" one away. There is also a growing trend to do this at fairs and carnivals as well. Instead of the goldfish in the bowl you can find hatchling RES. You pay for the game not the turtle.

Right, so long as no money exchanges hands, it is legal to give one away, or legal to sell one "not in connection with a business". So, technically, you can't sell a tank with a baby turtle thrown in.

As for fairs and carnivals, in some states it's illegal to give away animals as prizes.

Katrina

Kind of like the old "we weren't selling beer at out party, we were selling cups for $5.00 and the beer was free"

also, IMHO it should be illegal to give away live animals at fairs or carnivals or anything in the way of prizes.

Steve Schindler

Here's the CFR - (b) Sales; general prohibition. Except as otherwise provided in this section, viable turtle eggs and live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches shall not be sold, held for sale, or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution.

Katrina

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 21, Volume 8, Parts 800 to 1299]
[Revised as of April 1, 1999]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 21CFR1240.62]

[Page 638-640]

TITLE 21--FOOD AND DRUGS

Subpart D--Specific Administrative Decisions Regarding Interstate
Shipments

Sec. 1240.62 Turtles intrastate and interstate requirements.

(a) Definition. As used in this section the term ``turtles'' includes all animals commonly known as turtles, tortoises, terrapins, and all other animals of the order Testudinata, class Reptilia, except marine species (families
Dermachelidae and Chelonidae).
(b) Sales; general prohibition. Except as otherwise provided in this section, viable turtle eggs and live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches shall not be sold, held for sale, or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution.

(d) Exceptions. The provisions of this section are not applicable to:
(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets.
(2) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs not in connection with a business.
(3) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs intended for export only, provided that the outside of the shipping package is conspicuously labeled ``For Export Only.''

It is illegal in all states unless they are 4" or larger. There are giant loopholes in the law which allow you to purchase the hatchlings. Scientific purposes can be anything from future breeding purposes, to studying feeding responses. You will not get away with the loopholes if you have children in the household under the age of 12.

Why are you looking for alligator snappers and softshells? Both are very hard to care for once they get large.

Was the store you bought the turtles from a Petland? Because a Petland in Las Vegas was busted by the FDA a few years ago for selling hatchling sliders.

Katrina

No, it was Exotic Pets. The reason I want Alligator Snappers is because a friend of mine has bought a stock tank and all the other supplies and he's now trying to find a hatchling so he can raise it from a baby. And I'm looking for softshells so I can breed my Spiny female, I'm well aware of the difficulty and I don't think they're that bad.

A lot of stores, espescially ones in tourist trap towns will break out the baby sliders on the weekends once in a while. Unless they have complaints, it is unlikely that any agents will be running routine or even random checks on weekends. If you only do it a 4 or 5 weekends a year you can potentially rake in tons of dough from unsuspecting tourists and the risks are very minimal. The potential for huge profits outweighs the risks. baby turtles they get for $2.00 they sell for $20.00 along with another $20.00 worth of worthless supplies and many of the turtles probably don't even make it home.

Even if it were legal to sell baby turtles, I doubt if I would. 90% of the time when someone comes into my store looking for baby turtles, they change their minds when they realize they can't keep them in the little plastic lagoons of death. Appropriate sized tanks, covers, heat lights, tank heaters (maybe) uvb lights, fixtures are usually a little more than they have bargained for. their question is always the same "do I really need all that stuff" I always tell them "no, but the turtle does"

Steve Schindler

They really need to quit making those things. Those are the most disgraceful things associated with turtles. Every time I see someone looking at those in my local pet shop i go your gonna need that(pointing to the 55 gallon aquarium). And tehy sorts just drop their jaw and walk away.