Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This may be a stupid question but there is an ad in the venomous classsifieds where someone has a handful of baby King Cobras (not advertised as venomoids), is this even remotely safe? I wouldn't even think to ask but I've seen another pic where someone else has a hooding O. Hannah in the palm of his hand and thought perhaps (but not likely) I'm missing something in the development of their ability to deliver a fatal bite at that age. It seems, however, incredibly inane to advertise the sale of Kings that way regardless of whether the venom yield of a juvie is inconsequential or not. Thanks for any input.
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Amor et Lux,
Ron

"The gods tolerate the human race for no other reason than our talent for [bleep]. It's the only thing about us that doesn't bore them to tears" Tom Robbins "Villa Incognito"

I just saw the ad myself, and the word INSANE comes to mind. I'm not sure what this guys issue is....But to answer one of your questions, YES babies that small can and WILL kill you. And that also applies to handfuls of them. Not to mention the fact that ALL baby snakes tend to be nippy.

I also saw said ad.

What he does in his place is his business. What I do not like about that picture is that it sets a bad example. Its not out of line to think that someone who buys one from him may be more likely to do the same thing after seeing that they did not bite him, or may entice a first time hot buyer into getting one of those kings b/c of that picture.

I'm being sarcastic, of course.

I noticed this ad as well earlier, and mentioned it on a different forum. One newborn king cobra could easily deliver enough venom to send someone to the ER for a long stay or to a pine box for an even longer one.

Someone who knows the owner said he couldn't believe he would allow such a pic to be taken on his property. However, I sincerely doubt an employee would do it behind his back, and then post it on KS classifieds!

I thought the pic in one of the photo galleries here of the guy holding the single baby king cobra in his palm (there is also a pic of him very liberally freehandling a HUGE gaboon) was bad. However, I venture to say this takes the cake as one of the dumbest things I've ever seen.

I honestly couldn't care less if someone dies because of their own stupidity...unless their death triggered a string of new laws that ruined the hobby for myself, and everyone else.

I'm with psylocibe, isn't that just natures way of cleaning out the clogs in the gene pool ?

I agree the gene pool needs some filtering to be done but a bite is not the way to do it. Each bite moves the hobby closer to "Legal Extinction".

Al
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You can't enjoy your collection if it kills you.

I don't think the venomous hobby is taking hits because of the amount of people bitten lately, but how that reflects on the way these animals are potentially kept behind closed doors in the private sector. These animals are misunderstood as it is and in some cases they're just as easy to get as a 6 pack from the beer store (I'm not implying those two should be mixed). I would hate to see the venomous hobby banned, and worse the people who we rely on for information may be pushed so far underground the opinions we seek from them will only follow suit. Why can't permit systems be put into place like Florida ? I'm told at the Dallas Zoo to work with any venomous animal you must first go through a year with the non venomous without a bite. If you get bit.. NO VENOMOUS. These are potentially dangerous animals, and with little to no legal guidelines to follow any Joe off the street can pick up a handfull of baby king cobras and damage a hobby that was built by responsibility. There are responsible private keepers, and sorry if i'm stating the obvious but some of the most accomplished facilities are private, some of the highest achiements in herpetoculture have been behind closed doors. All this stands to be lost to exactly who we strive not to be. Smarten up. All pictures like that do is give headaches to the people who should be keeping these animals.
KyLE

>>I honestly couldn't care less if someone dies because of their own stupidity...unless their death triggered a string of new laws that ruined the hobby for myself, and everyone else.

And there you have it. If this pinhead wants to kill himself, more power to him. But, he could at least have enough consideration for other hot keepers to do it by drinking a bottle of Drain-O or something. Even the act of posting that photo is damaging to the hobby. The general public already thinks we're a bunch of nuts. It's hard to convince them otherwise when you have someone like this providing them photographic evidence.

And, yes...a bite from a baby King would LIKELY be fatal if antivenom is not immediately available.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I'm not at all taking up for the person who posted the pictures and I do think it was a very bad idea to do so. However, I don't believe the hand in the picture belongs to the person who posted the ad. The physical appearance does not match up. The person who I believe is actually holding the snakes practices self-immunization and therefore probably did not feel too terribly threatened by the baby kings. However, regardless of if you are even 'completely' immune, posting the picture was still a very bad idea and the possibility of it having a negative impact on this hobby is certainly there. Ah well, what's another nail in the coffin anyway? lol
-Chance
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Chance Duncan
2.2 Retics (1.0 Tiger Het, 1.0 Lavender, 0.1 Dark Lavender, 0.1 Normal Het)
1.1 Olive Pythons
1.1 Ball Pythons (Het Albino)
http://www.rivervalleysnakes.com

>>I'm not at all taking up for the person who posted the pictures and I do think it was a very bad idea to do so. However, I don't believe the hand in the picture belongs to the person who posted the ad. The physical appearance does not match up. The person who I believe is actually holding the snakes practices self-immunization and therefore probably did not feel too terribly threatened by the baby kings. However, regardless of if you are even 'completely' immune, posting the picture was still a very bad idea and the possibility of it having a negative impact on this hobby is certainly there. Ah well, what's another nail in the coffin anyway? lol
>>-Chance

Yeah, it doesn't really matter who's holding them. The problem is that the picture is posted on a hobbyist site showing someone holding a wad of baby Kings in his bare hand. There is no disclaimer such as "Notice: The hand in this photo belongs to some guy that's pretty sure he's immune."

On the subject of immunity:

I can understand why you would want to try to immunize yourself if you handle a lot of hots. The logic isn't hard to follow. It would be a good little "insurance policy", to give yourself a little edge in the event of an accident. What I don't understand is intentionally placing yourself in a position where you are likely to have to test that immunity, or intentionally allowing a dangerously venomous snake to bite you. We all know that the venoms of snakes of the same species from two different locales can be genetically different enough that antivenom made from snakes from one locale is ineffective against the same species from the other locale. What we DON'T know for sure is which and how many species exhibit this disparity. We know this is true of antivenoms, I'm not sure if it's true of human antibodies. It makes sense that it would be. Is this guy certain enough of his immunity and the locale data of the snakes in question to bet his life on it?
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

One problem with self immunization is that if you're envenomated, you don't know how much antivenom to give or if you should even use it. It may also give the handler a false sense of security and cause him to take chances he may not take otherwise. From what I've seen, Bill Hass' hands are practically useless from the bites he's received over the years.

Bill's hands are that way mostly from tissue destruction caused by viperid and crotalid bites. I'm not sure how effective self-immunization is against these venoms as compared to the typical neurotoxic venom associated with most elapids (although many elapids carry a fair dose of hemotoxins and cytotoxins as well as neurotoxins and likewise many viperids pack their fair share of neurotoxins). It's really much more complex than it appears on the surface....
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

"The general public already thinks we're a bunch of nuts. It's hard to convince them otherwise when you have someone like this providing them photographic evidence."

WE ARE A BUNCH OF NUTS!!!!! lol

>>"The general public already thinks we're a bunch of nuts. It's hard to convince them otherwise when you have someone like this providing them photographic evidence."
>>
>> WE ARE A BUNCH OF NUTS!!!!! lol
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>>> WE ARE A BUNCH OF NUTS!!!!! lol

Well, yeah......but we don't have to give THEM proof of it.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Does the 'general public really go searching through the venomous classifieds and forums on kingsnake?

Some will out of curiosity, and others will to hopefully find more excuses to help them ban our precious treasures from our possession.
Cricket

Probably not a lot of 'em. But, you know how that goes...one "activist" type sees it and starts posting links to it on other forums ("Look what those snake-people are doing...no wonder they get bitten so much".....luckily, this ad will expire soon. It seems like as closely as KS monitors the content of text postings and deletes post-haste anything they find objectionable, they would monitor the photos in the Classifieds for less than desirable content, too...
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

***It seems like as closely as KS monitors the context of text postings and deletes post-haste anything they find objectionable, they would monitor the photos in the Classifieds
for less than desirable content, too.***

Bullseye. Very well put.

Bill Huseth

If not, then you answered your own question....

Of course not as they are illegal to own where I live. I do have a zoo permit in the works though and am not void of hot experience. The general public as talked about would be nonherpers and/or people ignorant on the topic.

What does a few petty [bleep] disturbers mean anyways. Do the big wigs at PETA and the HSUS really spend time in kingsnake? I think not.

I doubt pics of people holding venomous snakes would CHANGE their oppinion of us. On the other hand......Theres a whole religion dedicated to holding venomous snakes while dancing, and speaking in tongues. To THIS *NUT*, that is above and beyond NUTS!!!

>>I doubt pics of people holding venomous snakes would CHANGE their oppinion of us. On the other hand......Theres a whole religion dedicated to holding venomous snakes while dancing, and speaking in tongues. To THIS *NUT*, that is above and beyond NUTS!!!

Yeah, there are a bunch of those folks in this area. Years ago one of my friends occasionally sold snakes to them.

You're right...they are a tad off center. Those people get bitten a LOT. Then they pray about it and they either die from it or they don't. They usually refuse to go for treatment. Most of them use Timber Rattlers, Canebrake Rattlers, Copperheads..stuff like that. Once in a while they use Eastern Diamondbacks or Western Diamondbacks and occasionally even a Monacled Cobra. The bites that occur among these groups that go unreported probably skew U.S. snakebite statistics quite a bit.

Personally, I could care less what people think about me and my snake-keeping. I've been dealing with that for a long time. For a lot of years, I sort of tried to hide it from people and such because I felt like some sort of oddball because of the way people reacted when they found out I had *gasp* VENOMOUS SNAKES!!!! Now I could care less. When they ask me something inane like "What will you do if a tornado hits your place?", I just say "I'll buy your land, cheap."

What bothers me is what the public opinion can potentially do to our hobby and our continued ability to legally keep these animals.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I barely ever volunteer information about me keeping snakes as pets anymore. You could literally guess every question a person will ask you, before they even ask it. "IT" gets really old really quick lol. Mostly now, its people that already KNOW I keep snakes, that tell other people that I keep snakes, that I have to answer questions to. If THAT makes any sense lol.

You say "What bothers me is what the public opinion can potentially do to our hobby and our continued ability to legally keep these animals."

What bothers ME is the fact that the only reason why people are afraid of ANYTHING is because they dont understand it. When someone doesnt understand something, they are IGNORANT on the subject. You cannot educate someone on something they have no interest in learning. And in my oppinion...the VAST majority of the general public is perfectly happy to be ignorant on the subject of snakes. After all.....ignorance is bliss.

Agreed...the battle against ignorance is the hardest of them all to win.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson