Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The following is a posting I did on VIN.com (Veterinary Information Network) and am still awaiting information from there that might allow me to figure out this situation. Please read and let me know your thoughts. Thanks to everyone.

-----------------------------

Hello I am a second year Vet student at ISU CVM and am concerned about some problems that I have been having with my bearded dragons and some new lighting I purchased.

I have been keeping bearded dragons for a number of years and in the past I have always used the fluorescent UVB bulbs by ZooMed Reptisun 5.0 and the ExoTerra Repto-Glo 8.0 (the second which I have use more often). Never really had problems with them at all. Recently I saw that Big Apple Herp had released a new fluorescent bulb
(http://www.bigappleherp.com/Reptile_Supplies/Product/UVB_Mystic_Fluorescent_Light_Series_262300.html) claiming to emit more UVB lighting at a greater distance than the above mentioned brands ("at least 100 Microwatts/CM2 of UVB at 30 centimeters". Making it more comparable to the new mercury vapor bulbs on the market. Figured since I needed to replace two bulbs anyway, I'd give it a try. I decided to purchase 2 bulbs. One for a cage containing 2 two year olds and a 5 year old animal. The second cage containing 2 week olds.

I installed the bulbs (2) as recommended by the company and they definitely were a different "breed" of fluorescent than the two I was use to. The lighting wasn't as bright and more of a blue/purple.

The biggest change I noticed was in my animals after 2 days of 8 hour exposure to these new lights. They were reluctant to open their eyes, their eye lids were what I would describe as "puffy". The more severely affected animals were exceptionally lethargic. The hatchlings showed the most drastic behavior changes going in two days from actively climbing and hunting, to becoming almost completely sedentary. Al animals showed a decreased amount of food consumption, but I figure they can't hunt with their eyes closed.

Since the adults and infants had not shared living space or food sources and my lizards that had not been placed under the new bulbs were not showing signs I decided the best thing to do is remove the only variable that had changed... the bulbs.

After 2 days without the bulbs all animals returned to normal behavior.

My questions are...
Am I correct to consider the bulbs at fault for this incident?
Are these signs consistent with UVB injury to the eyes?
Do I dare attempt to use these bulbs again?

Again all bulbs were installed according to manufacture instructions (both bulbs about a foot give or take away from the animals, manufacturer recommends minimum of 6 inch distance)

Please advise, thank you.

(PS - I would have gladly taken them to my vet to confirm ocular damage, but this happened over the weekend and if anyone's ever paid for vet school before, you'll understand money constraints and why I opted to remove the lights as see what happened from there instead of paying for emergency care.)

I had emailed big apple herp about these to try & find out more info about them. If you are having these problems I would contact them if you are sure it is the product. It does sound like it is the bulbs to me.
Here are the emails( most recent is on top):

Lance,

Yes, it is catching everyone's eye because for the first time a UVB
fluorescent goes way past 12 inches and way past 25 microwatts.

Your reptile will do very well under this bulb. It is nothing short of
phenomenal.

Andy
Director Of Internet Services
Big Apple Herpetological, Inc.
http://www.bigappleherp.com
800-92-APPLE

Big Apple Is A Registered Trademark Of Big Apple Herpetological, Inc., all
rights reserved.

-----Original Message-----
From: lance . [mailto:lb11778@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:02 AM
To: sales@bigappleherp.com
Subject: RE: UVB Mystic Fluorescent Light Series

Andy,
Oh, I did not know that the product was that new. I was reading how good it
was from your product discription & it just seemed too good to be true. It
is difficult to arrange a large tarrium to make sure my 2 beardies are
within 12 inches of the uvb source that is why this product caught my eye.
Thanks for your promt response.

Lance
>From: Big Apple Herp Sales
>To: "'lance .'"
>Subject: RE: UVB Mystic Fluorescent Light Series
>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:26:04 -0500
>
>Lance,
>
>I'm not sure what your looking for as far as data, we observed reptiles
>that
>were under different types of lighting change dramatically for the better
>while under our UVB Mystic Bulb.
>
>The product is already being used by a major zoo in this country and it has
>only been out on the market for less than 2 weeks. It is a fabulous UV
>light
>source for reptiles.
>
>Andy
>Director of Internet Services
>Big Apple Herpetological, Inc.
>http://www.bigappleherp.com
>800-92-APPLE
>
>Big Apple is a registered trademark of Big Apple Herpetological, Inc.
>All rights reserved.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: lance . [mailto:lb11778@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 5:19 PM
>To: sales@bigappleherp.com
>Subject: UVB Mystic Fluorescent Light Series
>
>
>Hi ,
>I was reading the product discription & you said that you tested these
>bulbs
>
> "Our testing reveals miraculous changes to reptiles in captivity once they
>start using a UVB Mystic Fluorescent Light." I was wondering if I could see
>the the data on this, if you don't mind. It's not that I don't trust your
>tests I just like to get as much information on new products before I
>decide
>
>to buy them.
>
>Thank you,
>Lance
>
>
>
>

-----
1 male bearded dragon named Lenny
1 femal bearded dragon named Jewels
1 male mali uro named Milo

How interesting. I don't think it could be from too much UVB, since the sun produces much more. My dragon has a Zoomed Powersun bulb that she has been using for nearly a year now and has never had any eye problems, and the mercury vapor bulbs also produce more UVB than the new Big Apply bulbs do.

I am not saying that it isn't the bulbs fault, it certainly sounds like it is. I would be interested in their response.
-----

A mans got to do what a mans got to do. A woman has to do what he can't.

Mom to:

1 little boy born 7/19/04
2 male RES, born 2001
1 ribbon snake, age unknown
3 FBT, ages unknown
1 female bearded dragon, born 5/2002
1 male lab mix, born 5/24/03
1 female calico cat, born 6/7/04

i would assume it had something to do with the way the bulbs produce the high levels of UVB...like, a problem from being exposed to the rays produced by the chemical inside the light or something.

I use normal flourescent UV bulbs and I don't feel any need to go for any more uv as long as I continue to supplement.

Not sure if it would be from to high UVB as some of the new mercury vapors from Westron (as well as the sun) are giving off as much as 250-350 micro watts at the suggested distances, and I have used them with no problems, and actually noticed positive changes in the months of their use. Of course with such a high UVB I give the dragons under these a choice of a fully shaded area to get out from under such lights if they choose. I'm not saying it wasn't this particular bulb that caused the problems with your dragons. Actually it seems likely if this was the only change, and since they got better when you changed them. it could very well have been the color of these mystic bulbs, or the change in design that gets this particular fluorescent to give off much higher UVB, and at further distances then all the other fluorescent bulbs.

Thanks for passing along your experience. I'd like to hear if anyone else has tried these bulbs, and if they noticed any changes in the dragons health, activities, or any problems as well? When I first saw them I said to myself finally a fluorescent that can give off almost as much as some of the mercury vapors, and for a nice distance as well. Oh well, guess I'll wait till there is more info out about these bulbs before making a purchase. Would like to know what is different about these bulbs then say a Repti-sun 5.0 as far as manufacturing, and production. How did they get this bulb to produce that much more UVB and how is it able to throw it for a longer distance? If you get any of these answers back from Big Apple please share.

I pray your dragons make a complete recovery, and hope that the short time under the bulbs doesn't cause any lasting problems for them. Thanks for sharing, and good luck with your dragons.
-----

Mystical-Dragons Web Site
Webshots photos

The bulbs strongly resemble those used in industrial tanning beds, but in miniture. I don't know if that means anything.

I am somewhat wondering if it isn't another wavelength OTHER than UVB that it's emitting that is irritating their eyes. After all it's obvious that somethings going on here that's very strange. Only other thing it could be would be infectious But between two groups who have never had any contact and be such a short reaction. Very strange indeed.

Maybe I will put the BAH bulb back on the adults and see if I can cause the signs to return. If it does then I'll be certain. (not really going to experiment on the babies, that'd be jsut mean to them, they need to focus on growing and eating )