Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Though I've considered this for a while it was'nt until my dear wife determined to prepare some marinated chicken wings that the opportunity presented itself (at which time I snagged some small drumsticks which where thawing) and hid them away in the fridge. Later that evening (last night) I warmed the wing pieces and offered one to my Red Belly. This was accepted in about thirty seconds, and swallowed! Then, the Northern ... who was interested but refused until ... the chicken was wiped with a fish and then (while he was busy eating) I scented a third peice and offered it to the Yellow Belly who snubs most anything save fish. His interest was sparked immediately though it took him twenty minutes to creep to his dish, grab the morsel and swallow (three minutes). Returning to the Red Belly, a second portion was taken right off!
On sale the chicken wings (itty bitty drumsticks & wings) where about $1.98 for 16 pcs. (numbers approximate). By weight, much less expensive than fish or mice. Total nutritive value, likely quite a bit less than the aforementioned two items but, as furless food goes, a nice change and convenient filler?
Michael

I would think chicken parts are of limited nutritive value but this could be partially remedied with vitamin dusting. My main concern would be the snakes being able to digest the large bones inside chicken wings/legs. But I can't think of a cheaper way and easier way to provide a non-fish meal to large watersnakes.
-----
Pierson Hill

Herpetology and Herpetoculture

For a certainty I fretted over the size or volume of the bone in the drumettes (in this case not the actual leg). Even went so far as to discuss my concerns with my wife ... at which time she said "you gave them bone in!!?" Well, too late! I figure the stomach acids should claim the calcium but, the wing tips do have much smaller bones. And I considered that perhaps they might be more similar to a spiny fish, maybe next time.
Sorry, gotta run ...

You know, I stood there feeding these guys and considered how easily vitamins would stick to the chicken (at least as easily as that STUPID SUBSTRATE BARK)!! Anyway, I understand very little about vitamins; type, amount, frequency, hazards or shelf life. I've maintained (perhaps erroneously), that a varied diet might be adequate? However, I recognise that my snakes receive no unfiltered sunlight, eat too much carp-fish and consume nothing natural from their un-natural surroundings.
So, any suggestions advice would be appreciated.
Michael

Mike, get a 12 dollar cast-net and thow it in the lake or canal near you and load up on natural fish and feed some and freeze some. Takes 20 minutes to learn how to throw the net and is more fun then you might think. Also, frozen smelt is an inexpensive alternative to rodents. Or better yet, go out and catch some some frogs, or get research on the net a biological supply company and order about 100 frogs and freeze them and use them as needed. Tell them you need them cheap and they will understand your needs. You can get big leapord frogs or bull frogs of what ever you need from them. Also, I do not know what State your in, but if your on the east or west coast perhaps you can buy a 5 or 10 pound block of sardines or pilchards or some other bait fish at a fishing bait store and defrost them as necessary. Actually small to medium shinners are a great alternative to smelt as they are alive and the snakes love them. But do not stick with feeding your snake defrosted fish as I heard that this may lead to problems but not have experience them, and change the diet from fish, to frogs, to rodents from time to time.

The largest water snake I ever saw or found was a 5 foot plus Florida water snake which was located quite a distance from its canal, but just feet from a busy road. When I found the snake in the tall grass, it had just finished consuming something very large. The bulge looked like it had just swallowed something between the size of a soft ball or bowling ball. I figured since the bulge was not long or narrow, it must have been a very big rat it had eaten.

The snake could not move an inch as it was totally exhausted from eating or fighting its prey. Since it was just a few feet from the highway, I mistakenly thought to help it and picked it up by the tail a few inches off the ground and pulled it toward the canal to help it back into the water. The snake began to regurg and although I let it go right away it continued to throw up.

Out came an adult red nosed coot or some bird of that nature. But the bird was big and looked freshly killed. I did not notice any scars on the snake, however the bird could have been hit by a car and the snake could have found the bird dead or injured and ate it? But I figure the ants would have been on the bird, but who knows as this was over 25 years ago and we did not have fire ants like we do today. Today, the bird would last 10 minutes before the fire ants took over the bird and the snake.

I have seen other water snakes eating carrion in the wild such as dead rotting fish and rodents but never saw a bird being taken. I did see a cottonmouth scraping, and I mean scraping with its mouth and pulling off a piece of smashed stuck on hair from a coon that was killed days before. Also, the cotton could not see me as it was dark and my flashlight was in its face, so I handed it a big dead frog that was nearby. The cotton could not strike and did not want to as it was overcome with the sense to feed. It ate the frog and continued to look for more road kill but I scared it off the road eventually.

I think I saw one time on television where this water snake ate a baby alligator. That most likely was set up by someone, although it seems like it would happen in nature. And I believe that most wild snakes will eat just about anything if hungry enough and some in captivity have proven to do so to some degree.

However noted, chicken is known for developing several toxins that if not kept at the right temperature could kill or sicken humans. As such, if you give a big chicken dinner to your water snake, the chicken could possibly develop these toxins and hurt your snake if not quickly digested. I would keep it down to small pieces. And I bet that chicken poop your snake is going to dump in a few days is going to make you throw out all the chicken in the house.

Excellent advice with little, teeny problems. First, if I cast a net I will be hauled away by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Only "First Nations" have this priviledge and that only to feed their families. Line fishing is acceptable though trouble is, out here on the extreme west coast, pretty much all I can get is steelhead, pink, and coho salmon and sturgeon (which must be released if babies under 6 feet). Even the smallest trout I've pulled from the Fraser River are too big for my 5 foot Red Belly! I have heard rumors about introduced bass/sunfish and possibly catfish but even so, if not a myth, bag limits are restrictive and I have many mouths to feed.
I have always looked for alternative variety (I admit, socially acceptable variety at that) but now, NOW you tell me about re-cycled chicken product. Feeding my snakes farm-raised trout was like having a flock of seagulls - but now, chicken coop poop?! This is devastating, even the Yellow Belly took a piece of chicken! Perhaps fish scented cornflakes? Niacin, riboflavin ...
Now, if I was way back east again, I'd fish every day ...
Michael

I use frozen trout piece dusted with calcium and vitamins for three years now. All seem ok...Once in a while i throw him a pinkye, that goes down well too. Whats disturb me a bit is that he dont have any uvb..i was planning to have him one but i cant find info if he really needs it...the calcium i gave him has D3. He spend 80% of his day in his cave.

-----
Mizar 21
1.0 Collared lizard (Ganymede)
1.0 Leopard Gecko (Gethsemani)
1.0 Nerodia Fasciata (Serpentard)
1.0 rescued iguana (Gomez)
1.2 Cats

Your snake looks great!! Healthy too!
I've been offering pinkies to my little guys as well and 9 times out of 10 they will accept them. One Mangrove and one Green, both males, refuse them from time to time.
So, are you getting any more nerodia to keep yours company?
Michael

Though no-one seems to argue that UVB may be useful, it has not been studied/documented well enough to be fully understood. Intensity and exposure duration must be considered ... there are reccomendations that are usually supplied with the light ... but these will vary with the "age" or hours of usage of the lamp.
Exposure from un-filtered or filtered ultra-violet radiation to skin or eyes is strongly advised against (industrial NDT inspection using fluorescent testing equipment) ... may/will cause burns, fluids in the eyes to fluoresce; protection against long term exposure required!
What are the distinctions if any, between UV and UVB with regard to living tissue? I don't know!
Do snakes sun to warm only or to disinfect?
Boy, I've got more questions than answers, that's for sure!!
Michael

I dont plan too, it's my first snake and i'm waiting to see when he will be a full grown nerodia if he will stay nice as he is now. Also, i have him for about three years now and i never seen another one like mine in a pet shop . Last year i go to an herp expo in Montreal and one guy happen to have one, beside that one , never happen to find any ! People often say to me that nerodia are too common, thats why they ALL got cornsnake, well thats kinda rare, lol.
-----
Mizar 21
1.0 Collared lizard (Ganymede)
1.0 Leopard Gecko (Gethsemani)
1.0 Nerodia Fasciata (Serpentard)
1.0 rescued iguana (Gomez)
1.2 Cats

Well, even though nerodia often darken with age, yours having a light ground colour now will most likely remain basically the same for the rest of it's life. My female on the other hand, is very dark and may go almost black in time, perhaps with a hint of the white banding remaining.
You sure are right about the corns ... and boas and kings and ...
Michael

I wasnt just referring to the color but to his temperament too I'm just hoping that he wont become four feet of agressivity,lol. Right now he's a nice snake, we handle him not very often but it always go well. He goes for my finger just one time and i must say that i was wiggling them in front of his face when he was hungry. Not very bright thing to do !
-----
Mizar 21
1.0 Collared lizard (Ganymede)
1.0 Leopard Gecko (Gethsemani)
1.0 Nerodia Fasciata (Serpentard)
1.0 rescued iguana (Gomez)
1.2 Cats

I would continue to feed the chicken occasionally, but dust it with Reptomin or some such. I'm impressed that your snakes fed on the chicken! I would leave out the big bones though. Have you thought about maybe mixing the chicken with whole fish in a blender? I've seen a "recipe" where fish are blended, mixed with a gelatin and chilled. Then pieces are cut off to feed.

Maybe your on your way to "snake sausages" for water snakes...

Actually, I do make snake sausage! All of my big snakes (except for the Yellow Belly) readily accept it. I purchased a meat grinder some years ago which is dedicated to snake food only (not kept in the kitchen per wife's instructions). I use synthetic collagen tubes (edible) and a mix of lean stewing beef (any fat I trim off), chicken heart and kidney, beef liver and whole trout. In my first batch I did add some vitamins but asked myself - why?
The trout skin, which has all the flavour or at least lots of scent would not grind well at all and ended up a tangled string in the blades. But, I gleaned from it what I could.
The snakes are offered fresh and later frozen/thawed sausage.
Due to the size (diameter) of the sausage, only the adults can eat it and they do, except for the Yellow noted above.
Problems are; this is relatively labour intensive. The ingredients are not cheap considering that for the same price I can fill my freezer with farm raised trout (I get about 30 sausages for the same cost). I must wait until my wife is gone for at least three hours to make the stuff, clean up and air out the kitchen! And most of all, is it too rich, too much liver or kidney, or ...? It does go through them like goose goo!

I feed them trout - it looks and smells like I raise a flock of seagulls.
I feed them mice and they pass fur for days.
The big snakes would get pinkies caught in between their teeth.
And the little guys are smaller than chicken wings!
Michael