Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all, sorry for being a stranger. I've been super busy getting snakes ready for breeding, completely overhauling my entire reptile setup (in order to allow me to expand my collection without having to move to a larger facility), not to mention losing my job of five years (which was a good thing) and starting a new computer repair company.

With all of that going on, I've made every attempt to be as efficient as possible with both my time and money. One of the things I've done is switch from the old babyfood/CGD mix to straight CGD.

Another thing I've done is gotten together with a cage manufacturer to come up with a system of racks specifically designed with the breeding/rearing of Rhacodactylus in mind. You'll all hear more about that soon enough.

Anyway, back to the Crested Gecko Diet.

Part 1

First of all, I'd like to address the assertions made by some of the resident "experts" here.

1. Crested Gecko Diet is "unnatural."

I'll be quite frank here. That assertion is pure garbage.

While they seem to work quite well, yogurt (a dairy product), babyfood and domesticated crickets are just as "unnatural" and the people who swear that they're so much better than CGD have no room to be making this accusation. My thoughts are that if I'm going to be using something "unnatural," I'll stick with the pre-mixed stuff where all I have to add is water. Anyone who has gotten a gecko from me in the last three months will attest to the fact that my geckos are as healthy as any out there.

2. Crested Gecko Diet is not a good complete diet.

Coming from a fitness & nutrition background, I have to chuckle when I hear people say that because it just demonstrates how ignorant (in the true sense of the word) these folks are when it comes to nutrition. CGD has all macronutrients (carbs, fats and proteins) and micronutrients (vitamins, minerals, etc.) covered...Back in the day when I was lifting five days a week, I would've killed for an MRP for humans that had those bases covered. CGD has honey and banana powder (there's our natural fruit/sugars), plenty of fiber, healthy fats, whey protein (the same type that professional bodybuilders use), vitamins (including D3), minerals and calcium...and that's not to mention the pigments that help to enhance the geckos' natural colors.

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Part 2 - "My geckos won't eat it."

There have been many people (including myself) who have tried to use the CGD, but their geckos didn't take to it.

After having a lengthy series of discussions with Allen Repashy, we discovered that I was mixing the diet too thick. As soon as I started mixing it exactly as shown on the label, I was amazed at how quickly my geckos adapted to it.

By mixing it by the label, the diet will be very runny, with a consistency more like soup than the thick baby food. After I add the food, manny of my geckos will literally drink it as soon as the lights go out. After about 12-24 hours, the water will begin to evaporate and the geckos will continue to eat it...leaving visible tongue "tracks" in the food.

Here's a good example...this gecko doesn't exactly look malnourished does it?

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Part 3 - Live insects.

Geckos go after live insects due to feeding response...not because they need them. It's called an opportunistic feeding response. The best example of opportunistic feeding response that I can think of is the Burmese Python's habit of eating every time it is offered food, even when it's not hungry and already clinically obese. This is because the animals are hard wired to eat when given the chance. The movement of the live prey is the trigger to this response.

I feed live prey on a regular basis because I'm a breeder and I want my geckos to eat a lot and grow as fast as possible...not because they're healthier that way, but simply because I like to see my babies grow up faster.

On the other hand, for the average pet owner keeping crested geckos, I feel that CGD by itself is sufficient, especially for geckos that have already been raised on it without added babyfood.

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Part 4 - Making the switch

(Some of this is pulled directly from the "Crested Gecko Basics" section of my website.)

I used to mix up a concoction of baby food and the higher protein Gargoyle Gecko Diet, but have recently weaned all of my animals off of the baby food in an attempt to make things more simple. Although it did take some time for my geckos to adjust, it was easier than I thought it would be and didn't take nearly as long as I had expected.

In fact, I waited until it was time to shut down my females for the year before making the switch. Many of my breeding females actually took to the CGD before they stopped laying, so in some cases, I had to reduce the amount of CGD that I was giving them.

All in all, it took about 2-3 months for my animals to get used to eating the CGD without the added flavor of the babyfood.

For those interested in switching your geckos, I would strongly advise you to make the switch "cold turkey" instead of cutting back on the babyfood little at a time. Sure, your geckos may get a little more hungry that way and they might even lose a little weight, but being hungry is actually a good thing when you're trying to get them to eat something that they're not accustomed to. The faster you make the switch, the faster your geckos will gain all that weight back.
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

I was one of the people that posted that I felt eliminating crickets all together wasn't necessarily the best thing to do. And I can admit that I posted it, I'm not embarassed

In my opinion, and I still hold to this, it isn't natural to take away an animals natural instinct, which is to hunt prey. GRANTED they may not hunt crickets in the wild, but perhaps some other insect, but my geckos are growing extremely well and they love their crickets.

In the past I have considered weening them off baby food and switching to CGD, but I had a hard time justifying the switch since my geckos are so healthy as it is. And to be totally honest, I didn't see any reason to spend the time getting them accustomed to a new diet when they were doing so well on their current diet.

I have also read, and been involved with many discussions with other breeders and hobbyists alike, that have differing views, some swear by CGD, others tend to favor the same system I have. I also know some that use CGD and Crickets in combination.

I really think what it all boils down to is personal preference, and I'm not knocking CGD at all, i know someone posted that they didnt think it was any good, I think its great stuff especially if it helps hobbyists keep their Rhac's healthier, I just personally dont use it because what I do works, and i have the "if it aint broke" mentality, that if what im doing works, there isnt any reason to change.

As Anthony knows though, I am on his list waiting for Reds, so maybe ill do a little experiment and raise a couple reds on only CGD, and raise a couple reds on my current diet, that would be some interesting material in my opinion and it would really bring some science into this whole debate.

all in all i think its personal preference, and i think if MRP diet can be made that keeps rhacs healthy and makes it easier for hobbyists to keep them, well then thats awesome. i just dont like being told my way is wrong, everyone has their own system that works for them.

. . . that KOZ used the word "Fact" a lot. If I recall, you said, "I'm glad someone else agrees with the FACTS" - or something akin to that. For some reason, that whipped me up a little - because I knew it was opinon - and not necessarily fact.

That being said, I had no reason to bite your head off. And for coming off snappish in previous posts, i apologize.

Now that I've cleared the air - the one thing I have noticed, is that my babies do grow a little slower on strict CG or GG diet. They look fine, are active and healthy - just not that huge growth spurt. But I still admit to beind a novice, with only a little over 2 years with Rhacs, so I've still a lot of learning to do.

Anthony - I do appreciate the info on the mixing. I have NOT been measuring - just mixing until it looks right. I will try measuring out exactly, and see if they eat more or less.
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Monte Meyer
Powergeckos
Email

I agree with what Anthony said, and I have always fed the CGD, but everything under 1 year old also gets crickets once or twice per week and when compared to acquaintances who ONLY feed CGD, mine do grow faster. I know there are always lots of variables but that's been my experience, and anyway I enjoy the entertainment of watching the babies hunt! (thunk, thunk, thunk) I recently tried substituting the Bolthouse Strawberry Banana Smoothie(all fruit juice, no sugar added) for the water when mixing the CGD and half of my geckos turned up their little noses at it, although I thought it smelled GREAT!! It seemed like a good idea at the time.....
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Terri
4:8:7 crested geckos: Popcorn, Goldfish, Harley, Bear, Big Red, Olive, Smudge, Blackie, Belle, Brilliant, Tina, Brick, Toni(y), Kermit, ChiliPepper, Spot, WildFire, WildTiger & Randy(i)

I myself made no assetions and hope noone took my comments as such. I respectfully disagree with your opinions and will until multigenerational tests have been run using CGD, meaning that I will trust this product in about 15 years when all the geckos initially raised on it as test animals have lived out full complete lives and their progeny are on the way to doing the same. Under any other circumstances it is irresponsible to assume that this is a "complete diet", in my opinion.

That said I do use cgd and I stil hold firm that its greatest asset is its color enhancing compounds (pick up a jar of human grade spirulina and some bee pollen to acheive the same thing much more cheaply).

Anthony I do have to say though that I find your comparisons to human and gecko nutrition a little out of context and misleading, being someone with a small background in nutrition, I know for a fact that no doctor would ever recommend someone eat a singular diet no matter it's composition. The risk is ALWAYS there for nuritional deficiencies. I just find your comparison a little off, no offense. As I aid before it is arrogant to assume it is a complete diet, and I hav to say this as well, if you do a little research you can find all the ingredients in cgd and ggd and mix large batches yourself at a fraction of the cost.

Also I don't know who the comment "resident experts" was referring to, but that disparaging attitude towards your fellow hobbyists will take you nowhere, in fact it gave me the impression you had your hackles up for some reason, and I certainly wouldnt want to see you as the type of individual who is threatened by the fact that other people out there may disagree with what you think.. so you have to go and be derogatory.

You breed awesome animals and you're definitely one of the more experienced individuals out there with them (you have definitely accomplished alot in what, a year and a half with these animals?), however I still know droves of people (a few of whom own in excess of 100 gecko species), and these "experts" see the cgd and ggd as a good product, but not nearly what it is cracked up to be.

That said, I will continue to go with every book but one, and every person i have talked to that is truly an expert on the subject of reptile nutrition, who do not stand to make a buck or lose a buck off the answer they give.

MWHS,

I have no idea who you are because you haven't bothered to reveal your name, but you sound exactly like another guy I know who incessantly beats his chest about of the number of gecko species he has, how the basics of gecko nutrition is somehow different than that of humans, how it will take 20 years to know if it really works, blah, blah, blah...I've literally heard it all before. In fact, I'd be willing to bet money that you know exactly who I'm talking about because just like you, that guy can't tell me what's missing from CGD either. Don't bother denying it because we both know exactly who I'm talking about.

The nutrition part of my post was very simple, but apparently you (and the guy who you're parroting) just don't get it. Humans and geckos (and every other living thing) have basic nutrition requirements in regards to certain macronutrients and micronutrients. It doesn't take a nutrition expert or a gecko expert to understand this concept, but unfortunately for some, it does take a bit of common sense.

You (and "you know who" claim that something's missing or something might be missing, but none of you can tell us what it is or even give us an idea of what it might be. Heck, you can't even tell us if it's a vitamin, a mineral or even if it's a macronutrient or a micronutrient. All you "know" is that it can't be right.

You (and "you know who" claim that one would need to use CGD for something like 20 years to know that it's OK to use, but not a single one of you have been keeping Cresteds that long, let alone "testing" your babyfood, yogurt and cricket feeding regimen on them. All that said, somehow you want to pretend that you are qualified to say that Allen Repashy (the guy who developed CGD, for those who don't know) doesn't know what he's talking about, when the fact is that he's produced more Crested Geckos than you and all of the other "experts" combined. And somehow you rationalized calling me arrogant? Please.

I have no qualms admitting that I've only been working with them for two years and I have a lot to learn. However, I am quite confident in saying that by keeping and producing as many as I do, I'm learning at a very fast clip. You can call me irresponsible all you like, but I have yet to kill any of my chubby little geckos, so I would have to assume I'm doing something right. It's no secret that the success I've had with them has bruised the ego of a few Crested Gecko veterans...it's just a shame that you've chosen to listen to one of them. Some people just take this hobby way too seriously.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, but I'll agree with you that anyone can go out and buy the ingredients of CGD and mix them up. Heck, if you want to get into that, we could all go out and buy a cow instead of buying a steak...we can all go buy peanuts and make our own peanut butter, we can all grow our own barley instead of buying a sixer of Budweiser...you get the point (hopefully). The fact is, though, that some of us find our time to be a little more valuable than the dollar or two we might be able to save.

Like all of the others I've had the pleasure of listening to, your argument (if you can even call it that) is weak at best.

Oh and make sure that when you talk to "you know who", tell him that I said hello.

Anthony

>>I myself made no assetions and hope noone took my comments as such. I respectfully disagree with your opinions and will until multigenerational tests have been run using CGD, meaning that I will trust this product in about 15 years when all the geckos initially raised on it as test animals have lived out full complete lives and their progeny are on the way to doing the same. Under any other circumstances it is irresponsible to assume that this is a "complete diet", in my opinion.
>>
>>That said I do use cgd and I stil hold firm that its greatest asset is its color enhancing compounds (pick up a jar of human grade spirulina and some bee pollen to acheive the same thing much more cheaply).
>>
>>Anthony I do have to say though that I find your comparisons to human and gecko nutrition a little out of context and misleading, being someone with a small background in nutrition, I know for a fact that no doctor would ever recommend someone eat a singular diet no matter it's composition. The risk is ALWAYS there for nuritional deficiencies. I just find your comparison a little off, no offense. As I aid before it is arrogant to assume it is a complete diet, and I hav to say this as well, if you do a little research you can find all the ingredients in cgd and ggd and mix large batches yourself at a fraction of the cost.
>>
>>Also I don't know who the comment "resident experts" was referring to, but that disparaging attitude towards your fellow hobbyists will take you nowhere, in fact it gave me the impression you had your hackles up for some reason, and I certainly wouldnt want to see you as the type of individual who is threatened by the fact that other people out there may disagree with what you think.. so you have to go and be derogatory.
>>
>>You breed awesome animals and you're definitely one of the more experienced individuals out there with them (you have definitely accomplished alot in what, a year and a half with these animals?), however I still know droves of people (a few of whom own in excess of 100 gecko species), and these "experts" see the cgd and ggd as a good product, but not nearly what it is cracked up to be.
>>
>>That said, I will continue to go with every book but one, and every person i have talked to that is truly an expert on the subject of reptile nutrition, who do not stand to make a buck or lose a buck off the answer they give.
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

is on the manufacturers, not me, I don't believe in the product and have given my reasons, so whats the big deal, maybe Im wrong maybe Im not. It hasn't been in use long enough to see if anything is missing, or just as importantly if there is too much of anything in it. It may good for the here and now but there has been no long term testing and any arguments otherwise when dealing with a lizard that has a 20 year lifespan is pure garbage.

The burden of proof that something won't go wrong in twenty years is on the manufacturer? So now we're all supposed to believe that they need to prove that something won't go wrong in twenty years because you (who we know nothing about) say so. Do you not see how ridiculous that sounds?

You're the one (well, you and "you know who" ) making all these ridiculous assertions, so logic would tell one that you (and your buddy) need to start backing up the claims that you're making...or continue to look ridiculous.

>>is on the manufacturers, not me, I don't believe in the product and have given my reasons, so whats the big deal, maybe Im wrong maybe Im not. It hasn't been in use long enough to see if anything is missing, or just as importantly if there is too much of anything in it. It may good for the here and now but there has been no long term testing and any arguments otherwise when dealing with a lizard that has a 20 year lifespan is pure garbage.
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

that was my mistake, i should not have used the word "fact". not a big deal though, its fun to have a little heated debate once in a while, it really shows how much we care about our animals.

I could really learn a lot from all of you. How many years of experience do you guys have?

I use it. I mix it in with babyfood though. I know, I know, it has everything they need! But still, I just "feel better" feeding mine a variety of foods. They get gutloaded crickets, roaches, a variety of babyfood mixed with CGD. I supplement with Rep Cal and Herptivite.

I got my first trio of crested geckos in 1998. Just plain buckskins but man were they expensive! And very cool! I raised all three from babies and they were fed a diet of gutloaded crickets supplemented with calcium and vitamin powder. No baby food, and obviously no CGD. Never had a problem with any of them, and they did reproduce successfully for me.

The moral of this (sorta lame) story? What each keeper chooses to feed his or her geckos is a personal choice, and as long as the animals nutritional needs are met then there is no right or wrong choice. This kind of reminds me of the sand vs. paper towel debate we have been having for years over on the Leopard Gecko Forum (Monte will know what I am talking about :0)

The important thing is that we are properly caring for our Rhacodactylus and not housing them as PetCo recommends (yuck!)

Ok, back to feeding geckos
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

I have the CGD and baby food and have tried them both with no success yet, but my gecko is only about a month 1/2 old. He eats crickets very well and I feed them gutloaded and vitamin dusted about 3 times a week. I read that it's normal for babies not to be interested in baby food/CGD, is this true? Should I keep trying this until he eats it, and about how old are they when they do eat it?
Thanks for the advice

Babies eat such tiny amounts that sometimes you can hardly tell without a magnifying glass held over the food that there actually are tiny little lick marks. If you want to use the CGD (which I recommend over baby food=sugars and empty calories), dust the crickets with it and he will get the taste of it, and recognize it when you add it to his food dish. You can mix baby food, vitamins and minerals and calcium OR use the CGD. It's a bit like re-inventing the wheel, tho. The work has been done and it only makes sense to take advantage of that.
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Terri
4:8:7 crested geckos: Popcorn, Goldfish, Harley, Bear, Big Red, Olive, Smudge, Blackie, Belle, Brilliant, Tina, Brick, Toni(y), Kermit, ChiliPepper, Spot, WildFire, WildTiger & Randy(i)

Your baby is probably eating it, but not enough that you would notice. You have to remember that your gecko's stomach is probably about one fourth to one third the size of it's head.

I raise my babies on CGD and baby roaches and to be honest, I really don't see them eat for the first couple of months. The only way I know they're eating is when I see feces.

-Anthony

>>I have the CGD and baby food and have tried them both with no success yet, but my gecko is only about a month 1/2 old. He eats crickets very well and I feed them gutloaded and vitamin dusted about 3 times a week. I read that it's normal for babies not to be interested in baby food/CGD, is this true? Should I keep trying this until he eats it, and about how old are they when they do eat it?
>>Thanks for the advice
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

Thanks guys! I will keep up the routine then, as I can definately see him growing and pooping and all that healthy stuff.

Agreed. I got my first cresteds just before the CGD came out and I raised those on babyfood/crickets with no problems. Babyfood and crickets seem to work fine without any CGD whatsoever, so I'm not saying that the CGD is even necessary. To be completely honest, I don't think it is necessary, but I do think that it helps provide more complete nutrition and I do think that it helps the geckos' colors.

The main point of my post was not to knock the other method of feeding, but to defend my method of feeding them, which was under fire by people who probably haven't owned as many Cresteds as I have, let alone Allen Repashy.

-Anthony

>>I use it. I mix it in with babyfood though. I know, I know, it has everything they need! But still, I just "feel better" feeding mine a variety of foods. They get gutloaded crickets, roaches, a variety of babyfood mixed with CGD. I supplement with Rep Cal and Herptivite.
>>
>>I got my first trio of crested geckos in 1998. Just plain buckskins but man were they expensive! And very cool! I raised all three from babies and they were fed a diet of gutloaded crickets supplemented with calcium and vitamin powder. No baby food, and obviously no CGD. Never had a problem with any of them, and they did reproduce successfully for me.
>>
>>The moral of this (sorta lame) story? What each keeper chooses to feed his or her geckos is a personal choice, and as long as the animals nutritional needs are met then there is no right or wrong choice. This kind of reminds me of the sand vs. paper towel debate we have been having for years over on the Leopard Gecko Forum (Monte will know what I am talking about :0)
>>
>>The important thing is that we are properly caring for our Rhacodactylus and not housing them as PetCo recommends (yuck!)
>>
>>Ok, back to feeding geckos
>>-----
>>Peace-
>>Kelli Hammack
>>H.I.S.S.
>>email me
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

Exactly right Anthony. I wasn't directing my post at anyone specifically, it was one of those, "To whoever is reading this.." posts.

I had no idea about the CGD bringing out the color? Is that a permanent thing, or will the color fade if you stop feeding them on the diet?
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

The color will fade if you stop feeding it to the, but before you shrug it off as artificial, keep reading.

Allen started playing with several natural pigments (in the form of certain algaes, etc.) after several WC Rhacodactylus geckos (auriculatus and ciliatus, if I remember correctly) started losing their color after they were brought into the United States from New Caledonia. Apparently, there are certain natural pigments found in the natural diet of Rhacodactylus that add to and enhance their color. These pigments build up in the skin cells over time, thus making the geckos get brighter and brighter with age. The closest thing I can use to compare the color enhancement to is the Pink Flamingo. Baby Pink Flamingos are white when they hatch, but as they grow older, they become pink, due to the pigments found in the shrimp (or whatever it is) that Flamingos eat. Anyway, back to Rhacs...In captivity, when given crickets and babyfood or whatever, they don't get these pigments, so they lose some of their color. Since feeding the CGD and GGD to those WC Rhacs, Allen said that they've gained back all of their original color that they had when they were collected in New Caledonia.

I'm sure I probably left something out, but I believe there may even be a section about this phenomenon in the back of the Rhac book by Repashy, Fast and de Vosjoli.

-Anthony

>>Exactly right Anthony. I wasn't directing my post at anyone specifically, it was one of those, "To whoever is reading this.." posts.
>>
>>I had no idea about the CGD bringing out the color? Is that a permanent thing, or will the color fade if you stop feeding them on the diet?
>>-----
>>Peace-
>>Kelli Hammack
>>H.I.S.S.
>>email me
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

And makes me think of something -sort of, but not really- related to this. I bought a couple jars of the T-Rex Leopard Gecko Dust when it first came out, and dusted the bugs I fed my leopard geckos for a couple of weeks. I noticed almost immediately that it brightened up their colors, and made them look way more colorful than usual. Like glowing almost. Now if I remember correctly, the Leopard Gecko Dust is identical to the Crested Gecko Dust and all the other dusts. So what i am wondering is if the dust contains some of the same ingredients as the CGD that enhance the color? Anyone? Bueller?
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

The ICB (insect/cricket balancer) has the exact same algaes that the CGD has and it does intensify the colors of Leos...the pair I have seemed to brighten up within no time. I've since switched back to Miner-all, but the ICB seemed to work pretty well. I just felt like the Miner-all was a better deal for the money.

>>And makes me think of something -sort of, but not really- related to this. I bought a couple jars of the T-Rex Leopard Gecko Dust when it first came out, and dusted the bugs I fed my leopard geckos for a couple of weeks. I noticed almost immediately that it brightened up their colors, and made them look way more colorful than usual. Like glowing almost. Now if I remember correctly, the Leopard Gecko Dust is identical to the Crested Gecko Dust and all the other dusts. So what i am wondering is if the dust contains some of the same ingredients as the CGD that enhance the color? Anyone? Bueller?
>>-----
>>Peace-
>>Kelli Hammack
>>H.I.S.S.
>>email me
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

maybe those algaes that intensify the colors would STILL not be making into their meals. It makes one wonder what other minor nutrients the average baby-food&cricket hobbiest might be missing. While it's true that animals seem to survive and reproduce with less than the ideal diet and husbandry (we were once given 3 dairy goats which were being fed hay, RAW SOYBEANS AND SHELL CORN, NOTHING ELSE!!!!), if a potentially better alternative becomes available and is easy-to-employ, it seems a bit block-headed not to try it, at least. I for one am grateful to Allan who, having observed these animals in their natural habitat, developed an easy-to-use diet at least as COMPLETE and probably more-so than anyone was likely to formulate in their own kitchen AND decided to share it with the world. He could have kept it a trade secret that only Sandfire and a few other major breeders with whom he cultivated relationships with would have access, leaving the rest of us to wonder why the brilliantly-colored animals we purchased faded to pale in our ownership.
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Terri
4:8:7 crested geckos: Popcorn, Goldfish, Harley, Bear, Big Red, Olive, Smudge, Blackie, Belle, Brilliant, Tina, Brick, Toni(y), Kermit, ChiliPepper, Spot, WildFire, WildTiger & Randy(i)

Hey Anthony, Do you have a link to the sandfire forum? I used to buy the diets in 5lb tubs, but now can only get it in 2 1/2 lbs tubs. I would like to buy bulk if possible. I go through the 2 1/2 lbs very quickly. How are you buying it?

Thanks mike

LLL seems to be the cheapest ($29.95). Allen sells it, but only in the 2.5 lb. container. I'm not sure if he offers a break when you buy two of the 2.5 lb containers or not, though.

>>Hey Anthony, Do you have a link to the sandfire forum? I used to buy the diets in 5lb tubs, but now can only get it in 2 1/2 lbs tubs. I would like to buy bulk if possible. I go through the 2 1/2 lbs very quickly. How are you buying it?
>>
>>Thanks mike
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com