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Pro-vent a mite

crtoon83 Dec 07, 2004 11:53 PM

I just got my can of pro-vent a mite, and I have some questions on this.

The active chemical ingredient is permethrin at a 0.5% concentration. This is the exact same thing that you can find in the Ortho mosquito-b-gone. (i work at home depot, and i used to date the ortho rep lol.) In the concentrate it's actually a 2.5%, but if you get the RTU (which isn't on their website), it's only 0.5 also. AND this stuff is a heck of a lot cheper than pro-vent a mite.

If you read the can it says not to let anything breathe the vapors... this is a very toxic chemical. I don't konw if anyone remembers dursban, but permethrin is extremly close to it - will kill you if you ingested.

So i'm just wondering why i couldn't go get a $5 bottle of ortho mosquito-b-gone instead of this stuff?
-----
-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
1.1 Texas Bairds (Jose and Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Claudius)... coming soon

Replies (13)

Terry Cox Dec 08, 2004 05:05 AM

Good question. I'm not a chemist and don't know the answer, but bet someone will eventually. I do know that it works, but I'd be very wary of it. When I use it to quarantine snakes I spray the cage a day in advance, out in my garage, so it can air out w/o affecting anyone. I use a mask, because I have athsma and don't like to take any chances (recommend this). I never spray more than one or two seconds. Then I let it sit for up to 24 hrs, before putting the new snakes in. The chemicals must be dry. If they have any external bugs, it'll kill them. A can lasts me a long time, maybe 100 sprayings, so it's worth it. Also, I can't take the chance that using something else won't have some kind of adverse affect because of the other ingredients or unknown factor. I know lots of folks have tried other ways of doing this and found ways that work for them supposedly. Maybe this will work for you, if you experiment with it. Use inexpensive snakes

Let us know if it works, but be careful...TC.

If you just want to experiment on mites with concentrations of the stuff, I recommend spraying for "dust mites". I've found that you can collect the mites from the bottom of your mouse chow bags in the dust just about anytime you want. I was shocked as I thought they were snake mites at first, but now know that several different kinds of bugs live in the rodent chow (Purina) that I get in. Good luck

lolaophidia Dec 08, 2004 05:45 AM

I know this has been discussed many times on the General Snake and Herp Health forums. People have tried a lot of different things with various levels of success. You may want to try a search for snake mites and see all the different things people have tried. Hopefully, now that you've got a can of P-A-M, you'll never need it!
-----
Lora

Hotshot Dec 08, 2004 06:42 AM

I tell you what, I have found a remedy that works every time. I have used it on 3 different snakes with no ill effects and it worked great!!!
Sergeants skip flea and tick shampoo!! Thats right shampoo for dogs. I use the stuff that has the oatmeal in it. It has the same strength of premethrin that PAM has in it, but it is not in vapor form. I shampoo the snake with it, let it soak for 2-3 minutes and rinse it off. Kills those pesky little mites every time. Then i use the shampoo to wash the enclosure and everything else with. It is supposed to be active for up to a week. I have never had to re-use it on the effected snake and there were no ill effects. I used it on a yearling milk that had gotten mites from some bedding I purchased from a pretty dirty pet store. No problems. Alot cheaper and a bottle will last a whole lot longer than a can of PAM.

Try it out and see for yourself!
Good luck
Brian

>>I just got my can of pro-vent a mite, and I have some questions on this.
>>
>>The active chemical ingredient is permethrin at a 0.5% concentration. This is the exact same thing that you can find in the Ortho mosquito-b-gone. (i work at home depot, and i used to date the ortho rep lol.) In the concentrate it's actually a 2.5%, but if you get the RTU (which isn't on their website), it's only 0.5 also. AND this stuff is a heck of a lot cheper than pro-vent a mite.
>>
>>If you read the can it says not to let anything breathe the vapors... this is a very toxic chemical. I don't konw if anyone remembers dursban, but permethrin is extremly close to it - will kill you if you ingested.
>>
>>So i'm just wondering why i couldn't go get a $5 bottle of ortho mosquito-b-gone instead of this stuff?
>>-----
>>-Chris
>>
>>The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin
>>
>>A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?
>>
>>My Website
>>Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
>>
>>Current snakes:
>>0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
>>1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
>>1.1 Texas Bairds (Jose and Rosa)
>>0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
>>1.0 Green Tree Python (Claudius)... coming soon
-----


RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

RACERS
1.0 Eastern Yellow Belly racer "Nightcrawler" (MO locale)

KINGS
1.1 California king snake "Bandit and Moonstar" (Coastal phase)
1.0 Prairie king snake "Bishop" (KY locale)
0.1 Black king snake "Domino" (KY locale)
1.0 Desert Kingsnake "Gambit"

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

panther13half Dec 08, 2004 02:29 PM

your condro?

anyway.....i use a "no pest" strip

the yellow plastic one in the black swiss cheese lookin cardboard box.....used to kill bugs around garbage cans etc.

this if hung near....will kill any parasite within the area.....mites, ticks and such! (a one inch square taped inside of the cage will work even better....but i dont like it in the cage for too long)

'it works and theres no residue or spray

just my opinion

keith
-----
I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.

crtoon83 Dec 08, 2004 03:24 PM

With the chondro I need to use a substrate that will hold humidity better than aspen...and everyone has suggested cypress mulch. However I am a little obsessed about getting all those little bugs on the mulch DEAD before I put it in my cage. I have been told by many people they wont hurt antyhing...but these cages are in my bedroom and I don't want to wake up with bugs crawling all over me. So I got it to sanatize the substrate before I put it in the cage.
-----
-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
1.1 Texas Bairds (Jose and Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Claudius)... coming soon

Matt Campbell Dec 08, 2004 07:23 PM

A few years ago I had a mite outbreak in my collection and I had bad results using a vet-prescribed Ivermectin spray earlier on in this outbreak. I had heard about Provent-A-Mite and I contacted the owner of Pro-Products, Bob Pound. I talked with Bob for a few minutes and then he had to take another call. He got my number and called me back [on his nickel], and we talked about mite control for nearly an hour [long distance]. The upshot is that Provent-A-Mite is the most thoroughly researched product for the control of mites.

The permethrin used in the product if I remember correctly is a synthetic that is engineered to become inert and harmless to reptiles [snakes are the only animals to be treated with this product], within a few minutes of application to the substrate. Actually, if I remember correctly Bob said that a snake could in fact come into contact with residue that had not dried without ill effects. Furthermore, the spray has a residual effect for up to two weeks after being used. The spray works by leaving a residue of the permethrin on the surfaces of the substrate and when a mite [reproductive females only] takes a blood meal it then drops off the snake, comes into contact with the treated substrate and subsequently dies.

The life cycle is broken within about two weeks or possibly longer if the infestation is particularly heavy. As eggs, [which are resistent] hatch out they mature, take a blood meal and then drop off and die as well. I have had the three instances of mites in my collection [only three animals, incidentally] knocked out within 10 days.

Also, Provent-A-Mite is the ONLY product licensed by the USDA specifically for the treatment of mites and ticks that prey on reptiles. Currently it's the only product licensed for use in controlling Heartwater ticks that may come from Africa on tortoise species such as Leopards and Spur-thighs. As to other types of mite/tick prevention, Bob said they retained the services/expertise of an Acarologist [mite specialist] in the development of their product. The upshoot is that mites are incredibly tough and the old stand-by of using No Pest strips is a bad method for controlling them.

No Pest strips and most other pesticides contain organophosphates which are carcinogens. They found that in order for a No Pest strip to actually kill mites it would have to be such a large piece [not the usual little piece in a small container that's mentioned in old herp books] - probably an entire strip in fact - that the concentration of organophosphate insecticide would have long-term effects on the health of the snakes residing in the same cage as the strip.

Many people have used No Pest strips and say their snakes have experienced no ill effects. However, cancers can take a long time to develop and deaths in collections long after the use of the strips are not likely to be attributed to the use of the pest strips. So, taking all of this into account and the fact that I believe nearly 10 years of research went into manufacturing Provent-A-Mite it really is the best choice for controlling mites and in my opinion any other menthod is a half-measure at best and downright dangerous to your collection at its worst.

Finally, in regards to cypress mulch and mites - I have used cypress for years and I have yet to ever have a snake appear with a mite infection after putting new cypress into a cage. You certainly can use Provent-A-Mite as a precaution but I personally don't think it's neccessary. I do however use Provent-A-Mite when I introduce new branching into a cage that is collected out in the woods. More than a fear of introducing snake mites I use the Provent-A-Mite to control things such as wood-boring insects and the like that would continue to live in the wood after being brought into a cage.
-----
Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

Terry Cox Dec 08, 2004 07:57 PM

Matt, that's a good piece, but I would advise some caution even with PAM. Worse case, coming in contact, is they could have a nervous disorder or even die. First, I make sure it is really dry. Some snakes do act adversely when coming in contact with the spray when still moist. Also, don't inhale the fumes, it could be harmful to you as well as your serpents. Thirdly, some snakes are more sensitive than others. Be especially cautious with baby snakes of all species, species that have very thin skins, skins you can see through that they shed, and finally certain snakes that are just sensitive and overreact to chemical stimulants. A couple I found, so far, are the Persian ratsnakes and Moellendorf's ratsnakes.

So, if PAM requires these cautions, think how much caution we should take with other chemical treatments.

TC

Matt Campbell Dec 08, 2004 10:31 PM

Terry,

I really wish Bob would read this thread and come along and weigh in on this as he's done in the past. I too was concerned about toxicity issues in particular since I had just had some issues with the Ivermectin spray with the mite problem I had years ago. Of course Ivermectin has been known to cause nervous disorders in some species and especially in neonate and juvenile snakes. However, Bob assured me that they did hundreds of clinical trials with P-A-M in dosages much higher than listed on the label including direct application - ie. applying the product directly to the animals. If I'm remembering correctly the results indicated that for the most part the spray had absolutely no deleterious effects on the snakes. Those that did suffer effects were neonates and the labeling cautions against using it on them. The real innovation with P-A-M is that the permethrin is essentially harmless to anything but arthopods. I would encourage anyone with questions to contact Bob Pound at www.pro-products.com and ask him your questions. I feel confident in using the product as labled on the package and like I said it has worked wonders for the few mite issues I've had whereas more traditional methods have been dismal failures. Also, as regards pretreating new pieces of wood introduced into my cages it has insured that I've never had any arthropod parasite issues with any of my animals after using the spray.
-----
Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

Terry Cox Dec 09, 2004 05:03 AM

Hi, Matt.

Thanks for the additional information. I don't mean to sound overly cautious, but I have used this product for several years to pretreat cages, etc. I've tested it on mites and my whole collection, and it works great, as far as I'm concerned. I'm just saying we should respect it as a chemical and also be careful to use it correctly which means following the directions. I would recommend this over other products I've tried through the years, but I don't have much experience with any others. I know that some folks will be kind of impatient when using this or any product and not wait very long for it to dry. I also had a problem or two when I sprayed it on too thick. That's why I'm advising fellow herpers to read the directions, several times, and use some caution. When applied properly it works great and it's good to know the info you gave about the main chemical.

I think anyone who keeps several cages of herps will probably have some problem with bugs in the cage eventually. How to take care of mites and other insects or parasites is an important issue. I think people who have very large collections will have monetary issues, however, because they might have to start buying multiple cans and it could get expensive. So, money could be an issue with some. Also, different people use different systems to house their snakes. Sometimes I use shoe boxes, but it's such a confining space. I put my baby snakes in a ten gallon tank when treated. I may be overly cautious though, as per my nature. I believe herpers will have best results when they know more and take more time when managing their collections. Not an easy subject to discuss, but very interesting. Thanks for your input, Matt.

TC

Terry Cox Dec 11, 2004 08:16 AM

Matt, I found this post from Bob on another forum. It explains a lot of things you were talking about. Very interesting, thanks....TC

Provent-a-mite post

-----
Ratsnake Haven: Calico and hypo Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains ratsnakes and corns

crtoon83 Dec 08, 2004 08:03 PM

I did some more research into this chemical, and it seems that people have chemically modified it to a number of different toxicity levels and applications. So when you go see permethrin in an ortho product at home depot its actually a different version of permehtrin from a real kill product down the asile. So basically, you have two products with the same active ingredient, but most people dont realize it's a modified version of that.
-----
-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
1.1 Texas Bairds (Jose and Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Claudius)... coming soon

nazza Dec 10, 2004 12:54 PM

I never used provent-a-mite and I needed to "fight" against mites 2 times. I was near to lost an oxycephala for using a product based on Permethrin: I sprayed this product on a cloth and after I passed the cloth on the back of the oxycephala, after I rinsed very well her down current water and put back in his (large for her size) box. After few minutes I noticed she was breathing with problems and had her last third paralized, I searched on internet and found that paralysis and respiratory crisis were the symptoms, and the intoxicated had to drink a lot and, in case of need, practice artificial breathing, I don't know if I saved her and could semm silly but for some hours I did artificial breathing and I did drink her with a probe.Before of her I did the same treatment to other snakes without problems, I think some snakes are more sensibles then others.
I found on articles on internet (i hope to find it again) that permethrin is safest on boids that on colubrids.
Sorry for my terrible english
nazzza

BillyBoy Dec 09, 2004 01:00 PM

Hey Keith. I use the same thing. I cut it up into 1" x 1" squares and will use 1 square for an enclosure roughly the size of a 10 gallon (10" x 20". I leave it in for 3 days where the snake will not come into contact with it and then repeat in 1 week. The key is to catch it early with mites and diligently check your animals for reinfestations.

Chris, if you want to use it to kill the little pill bugs in the mulch, I would portion the bedding out into a separate container and treat it first, then let it air out for a day or two. That way, you can then inspect it for any other living bugs and retreat as necessary. But I have used cypress for many, many years and have never woken up in the middle of the night with little pill bugs crawling over me! In South Florida we have much worse things like scorps and palmetto bugs to worry about. LOL!

>>your condro?
>>
>>anyway.....i use a "no pest" strip
>>
>>the yellow plastic one in the black swiss cheese lookin cardboard box.....used to kill bugs around garbage cans etc.
>>
>>this if hung near....will kill any parasite within the area.....mites, ticks and such! (a one inch square taped inside of the cage will work even better....but i dont like it in the cage for too long)
>>
>>'it works and theres no residue or spray
>>
>>just my opinion
>>
>>keith
>>-----
>>I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.

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