Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a question about what kind of offspring would be produced if a snow male Florida king was breed to an Anerythristic female Florida king. From what I understand king snake genetics are not the same as corn snake genetics and they have more co-dominate traits than corns.
any info will be greatly appreciated.
robert

a snow bred to an axanthic ( given that the snow is true homozygous axanthic and albino) would produce axanthic offspring 100% het albino.
dave b

Thank you for the info dave,
but I did not ask for what an axanthic breed to a snow would produce, I asked what a snow and an Anerythristic would produce. I really do appreciate you answering the question even if it was misread but if you can answer this question it would help me out a lot.

robert

Axanthic and Anery Florida king are the same snake.
thanks
Jeff

Jeff is correct they are the same.

here is a pic of a what has been reffered to as an "anery" floridana (BHB Enterprises) and New England "axanthic":

Sorry about the low quality of pictures. I took them with a low resolution. The genes are allelic:

sorry for the confusion.
So how would a snow be produced?
robert

A snow is an anery (or axanthic) crossed with an amelanistic animal.

A ghost is a hypomelanistic crossed with a axanthic or anerythristic animal.

It probably would have been alot easier to ask how to produce snows when I have a male snow florida king, what do I breed to.(obviously a female florida king, but what morph other than a snow)
you all have been a lot of help and given great info.
thanks
robert

Well you can breed your snow to a axanthic/anery and get axanthic anerys that are het for snow and normals het for snow. Or you can breed him to a lavender which will give you lavenders het for snow and normal het for snow.

Or you can breed him to a het anery/axanthic X lavender but you have to be careful WHICH lavender gene was used to produce your double het female. They have to be the same lavender gene in order to produce snows. Many fake lavenders (amels) were produced by crossing the calif kings into florida kings. These "other" amels are not allelic with each other.

rainer,

You wouldn't get any normals in the clutch?They would all be anery het for lav if a snow was bred to a anery.Were would you get normals in that mix?The snow IS already a anery?

later shannon

..just had to check if you were paying attention

.

I don't necessarily believe that you can use the term Anery or Axanthic interchangeably. In my post I was saying that some people use the term Anery to refer to an Axanthic Florida King. I always call them Axanthics. They only problem I have with that is their has never been an Axanthic with any amount of red in them. Maybe we can discuss this a little more.

Jeff

Anerythristic pretains to no red pigment.Axanthic pretains to no yellow pigment,therefore they can not be the same.Since red is expressed through erythophores and yellow is expressed through xanthophores,therefore they are not allelic.Rainer,the two snakes you posted, one, an extreme South Florida King "Brooksi" and the other,a South Florida King "Floridana" are both Axanthics regardless of locale.What both have in common is they express white where yellow is expected to be.It would stand to reason that an axanthic brooksi would be lighter than an axanthic floridana since normal brooksi are lighter than floridana. Tim Ricks

This is an old debate on this subject.
I asked the Dr. in person and he tells me the terms can be used interchangably for the brooksi.

Check the archives.

Well did you try and say "red leather yellow leather 10x real fast yet? Its funny because you get so mixed up its annoying.

BTW thats Dr. Bern Bechtel I was referring to.

If my definitions and explanations are wrong then please correct me in your words.Explain to me why anery. and axanthic are the same.People log onto this forum with the intent of learning something from people that may know something.So far all you've done is showed us pictures of what BHB calls anery and axanthic,told us that you talked to a doctor and that we should check some archives.You haven't given one logical or intelligent answer of your own as to why the two are one and the same as you say.Your heading about red leather yellow leather has nothing to do with this issue.Your heading is lame ,shows a degree of ignorance and does not address this issue.I feel we can carry an intelligent conversation,It's up to you. Tim Ricks

Rick,
I have discussed this many times in the past. Its very nice of you to consider my expertise but I am have gone through this stage myself. I have discovered it best to give out little guarded tidbits causing someone to do some thinking on their own. Much in the form of a buddhist teacher who hands out a small rock and asks the student to contemplate it. Someday you will understand my actions.
I would much rather discuss how someone can invent a way of perousing the internet without a computer. I would just love to make squiggly little lines in the air like Tom Cruise did in that movie(?)

Rainer ,I don't understand what you are trying to say in your last post and I'm wonder if anyone seeing that post got anything out of it.I'm out of here until anerys and axanthics come up again. It will never be an old debate as long as people keep asking are anerys and axanthics the same.Have a Good Night,Tim Ricks

astaXANTHIN is a natural RED color enhancer currently used in fish food....does Xanthism refer to red and yellow or ? Chris

can anybody define codominant mutations and then give me examples of any that occur in corn snakes or milk/king snakes? still trying to learn. td

Codominant traits are somewhat of a misnomer. What happens is that in a "normal" dominant/recessive allele pair you have one allele (version of the gene) that produces a product (e.g. melanin) and the other version, the recessive, that doesn't work.

So if you get two working copies, you produce melanin.
If you get two non-working copies, you produce no melanin and are albino.
If you get one working and one non-working copy (a het), you produce melanin and look normal. This is why we say the melanin producing allele is dominant over the albino allele.

But what if both alleles produce a product? In this case, the heterozygote will get both alleles and produce both products. Your phenotype therefore will either show both characteristics (codominance) or be intermediate between the two (incomplete dominance).

Are there good examples in snakes? Maybe a few. I believe Cal King striping works this way. There is a banded allele and a striped allele. They are incompletely dominant, so if you are heterozygous, you show some banding and some striping. People usually just call this codominance.

Unfortunately, there is a trend in the hobby to try and reduce all genetic traits to either dominant/recessive or codominance. If it doesn't show turn out to be dominant/recessive, it automatically gets labeled codominance. Of course, this a tremendous oversimplification of a very complex system and I suspect it is wrong most of the time. There are too many other variables that can affect inheritance of phenotypic traits.
-----
Chris Harrison

Chris,terry,

There are a few true co-doms in the hobby.If you take a salmon hypo boa and breed it to anything half the clutch will be salmon hypos?By putting two of the salmon offspring together you will prodoce about half the litter super salmon.
The same is true with pastel and spider balls and maybe a few others.
In colubrids I have only seen this with patterns?I have some aberrant siniloans that will produce aberrants to patternless no matter what I breed them to?

With true co-doms is very easy and fast to get the dbl homo's.Look at all the sunglow(hybino) boas that were produced in just a couple years.You breed a salmon to a albino and half the clutch are hypo het amel and the rest are all dbl-hets.

Anyways,you get the idea.

shannon

Tiger in the reticulated python is probably the best example of a codominant mutant gene in snakes.

Salmon x salmon produces (statistically) 1/4 homozygous salmon, 2/4 heterozygous salmon, 1/4 normal. But the guys on the boa constrictor forum say that many homozygous salmons cannot be distinguished from heterozygous salmons. So salmon is probably better described as a dominant mutant gene that shows variable expressivity. Striped in the California king snake is probably also a dominant mutant gene that shows variable expressivity. At least, I do not know how to tell a homozygous striped king from a heterozygous king with a good pattern. Some years ago one of the nicest-looking striped kings I've ever seen came from a normal mated with one of the poorest-patterned striped kings I've seen.

A big thread about pastel started a few days ago on the ball python forum.

From what I have gathered on the boa forum, most of the sunglows are heterozygous salmon and albino instead of homozygous salmon and albino. And double homozygotes are just as hard to get with codominant mutant genes as with recessive mutant genes. In both cases, the double homozygotes are 1/16 (statistically) of the offspring from mating a pair of double heterozygotes.

Paul Hollander

>>...But what if both alleles produce a product? In this case, the heterozygote will get both alleles and produce both products. Your phenotype therefore will either show both characteristics (codominance) or be intermediate between the two (incomplete dominance).
>>
>>Are there good examples in snakes? Maybe a few. I believe Cal King striping works this way. There is a banded allele and a striped allele. They are incompletely dominant, so if you are heterozygous, you show some banding and some striping. People usually just call this codominance.
>>
>>... There are too many other variables that can affect inheritance of phenotypic traits.
>>-----
Chris,

Thanks for the explanation. Your recessive/dominant example dealt with a color morph (melanin production). Is there any color example of codominance (complete or incomplete) that comes to mind? The cal king pattern example confuses me because all of the hondo pattern traits so far seem not to be simple recessives and i'd concluded they were the effects of multiple genes. In your cal king example, a banded cal king would be "pure" for that allele, and so also the striped? So if you cross a banded & a striped ALL the babies would be carrying one gene for each allele, and thus showing the mix of both--some striping, some banding, on each animal? Is that the way it works?

The COLOR-related example this reminded me of is the tricolor & tangerine honduran. But if they are examples of codominance then tangerines would be "pure" and tricolors would be "pure". Crossing the two would produce babies ALL of which would show BOTH characteristics, right? But in fact, cross a tangerine to a tricolor and you'll get some of each and some in the middle, seeming to show a mix. This would mean these morphs are NOT examples of codominance, right?

terry

So if you cross a banded & a striped ALL the babies would be carrying one gene for each allele, and thus showing the mix of both--some striping, some banding, on each animal? Is that the way it works?

That would be how it would work, if that is how striping worked, but I am not too sure about if that is the case.

But if they are examples of codominance then tangerines would be "pure" and tricolors would be "pure". Crossing the two would produce babies ALL of which would show BOTH characteristics, right?

More likely, the hets would be sort of half way between tangerine and tricolored.

But in fact, cross a tangerine to a tricolor and you'll get some of each and some in the middle, seeming to show a mix. This would mean these morphs are NOT examples of codominance, right?

Correct. These traits are obviously more complex than a simple pair of alleles.
-----
Chris Harrison

Recommend that you go to Wilmer Miller's site, move to the Contents page, find the "Science & ..." section and read two pieces, "Dominance, codominance, and epistasis" and "Advances in classical genetics".

Paul Hollander
Wilmer Miller's web site