Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is it true that a spider ball are more likey to do weird things with its head? Such as inability to keep its head up, or flipping its head 360 degree backward? I thought this is signs of neurological problem? Anyone can clarify?

That definitely sounds like a Nerological problem. I would highly suggest having the animal seem by a qualified Vet A.S.A.P.
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Rob Trenor
RK Reptiles
www.rkreptiles.com
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"I don't know about you...but I find comfort in that." -- Cowboy

Since I'm planning on picking up a couple of spiders next season, I was wondering if someone could tell me more if this was true and is it something really obvious? If you get a baby online from a breeder there wouldn't be anyway to tell, right? I guess I'd better do a little more homework on these guys.
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Tosha

1.1.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy)
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I purchased my male spider a few years ago from Kev @ nerd. For some reason all spiders and spiders crosses (ghost spiders, albino spiders, bumblebees, etc.) have the wobble heads, they all do it! It's nothing neurological!!. I picked My original male up at Kevin's facility, every spider he had did it. He told me not to be worried, and that all spiders do it for some weird reason. Every spider I produced does it. It's nothing to be worried about at all. They also have great personalities, all of you spider owners now what I'm talking about. If you have any other ?'s feel free.
Jay Cassidy
Caveman Reptiles
cavemanreptiles.com

I have been gawking at mine for a half hour now, even poked at him and picked him up. No wobble head. Maybe I got ripped off?
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www.NEWReptiles.com

Now that's funny!!

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www.8ballpythons.com

Maybee wobble head was a bad choice of words. They don't really wobble, but they tilt their heads backwards at times, usually while they cruse there cages, and even sometimes while being held. I hope that clears things up a little.
Jay

I see some spiders with the head wobbles and others don't really show it. I don't know why they do it but that is part of what may make spiders have their out going personalities. Some just seem a bit goofy, this is not IBD. Sometimes you can see them doing it when they are moving around the cage and then they snap out of it when they get disturbed.

My pearls(super woma??) had the wobbly head, but worse! I have outbred my males to breed back to the girls to see if I can fix it. I have produced the pearls from my two original parents and I will now use the outbred males as new breeders.

Kev@NERD
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www.newenglandreptile.com
The Most Extensive Collection of Ball Python Mutations in Captivity

Kevin,

Isn't that neurological damage somewhere in the genes if most spiders exhibit this type of behavior? They're brilliant animals but all in all, they are still morphs and morphs have gene(s) that differ from normal animals.

Could it be that the spider might carry a gene that affects the neurological system in the ball python? We have similar genetic defects in humans so it seems plausible to me.

Please clarify if necessary.

thanks,
Ron

I wish I could say I know exactly what makes them do it but I do not. It seems inheritable. If I could change it would I? No, I think they are the most outgoing ball python out there and I regard it as part of their personality! I have no more ideas on it and it has never really been a worry to me, they eat great and obviously breed well!! Kev
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www.newenglandreptile.com
The Most Extensive Collection of Ball Python Mutations in Captivity

What's up Kev.
That's what I meant, It's not a constant thing, like IBD it's more like you said they are goofy. Sometimes some of them will tilt their heads backwards and upside down (all mine do it). Sorry If I confused anybody. Sometimes I don't get my words out correctly, I guess that's why I'm just a big Caveman. Later
Jay Cassidy

Yes, some spiders do seem to have a neurolgical "twitch". Last year when I produced my first, I had 10 babies. About 2 weeks after they were born, 2 of them were doing a Backward Loop. I was FREAKED out. I thought it was a BIG problem. They weren't that bad, but they just seemed a little "Quirky" and they settled down. It seemed they did it more when they were excited. I talked to a few other breeders and they told me they had the same thing in some of theirs, so I didn't worry about it.

This 04 year I was able to produce a Very good number of spiders. I noticed this in about every 4th spider. Some had the "twitch" a little, and I had one that completely had almost no control in his neck. I thought for sure he woudln't do well. However, he has been the Best feeder of them all. We all know that Spiders are VERY hardy and agressive eaters, but it seems these ones with the "twitch" are even better feeders. Here is the point. After about 500 grams they all totally grow out of it. Even the animal I mention that flipped his head from side to side now almost has NO twitch at all. He is 450 grams!!! I noticed that the 2 spiders I had last year stopped doing this "Twitch" after 500 grams. So, for whatever reason, there are some that have this little "Twitch".

I believe it is nothing to be scared of, and the animals turn out completley fine. You can have a Spider adult pass this one even if he didn't have the twitch which was the case with me and my original male. HE never had this twitch yet some of his babies did, and some of their babies did too. After about 500 grams they don't exhibit this other then the fact that they look to the side a little. I have also noticed that the "NORMALS" that don't get the Spider gene in the clutches don't have this twitch, so it is definatley a Spider gene thing.

Even with the "twitching" the Spiders seem to be the Hardiest and fastest growing of all My ball pythons. The Spider Gene is Very strong. I think it is kindof cute now, and it ads a little personality to them. If you get a Spider that shows this, don't worry. Feed it and you won't see it much longer. I have noticed that ALL of my animals do this like the other person mentioned in the thread. I see it in about one in 4 to 5 spiders. Hope this helps. I LOVE the Spider. There are soo many variations in the looks, and that makes them a very fun snake to keep and breed. The Spider is a MUST have in my opinion. It is a VERY Solid snake. My 2 Cents. Jeremy Stone

Thanks for taking the time for that detailed explanation and especially for the numbers from your experience and the inheritance information!

Since I've never even seen a spider in person yet it wasn't that surprising that I didn't know about this until yesterday but I guess it's a testament to the secrecy in the ball python industry that even you didn't find out about it until your hatched some in 03. It certainly doesn't sound like it's much if any of a negative but I guess with big dollars at stake it isn't surprising that there was apparently a concerted effort by the many spider owners to keep it out of public knowledge until now. Kind of like all the morphs you can't get belly pics of except that I suspect that is repressed positive information that might help competitors.

I’m not singling any particular breeder out here as many people owned spiders before yesterday and didn’t say anything and secrecy seems to be the general rule across the ball python industry for any morph and any breeder with few exceptions. I can see early on hoping it was a fluke that would disappear with outbreding and then after making a few sales feeling constrained to protect those customers. However, as with price fixing, my personal opinion is that free and honest flow of information (including actual normal selling prices) would be the best policy for the longterm health of the industry.

From the info in this thread I would agree with you that it must be the spider gene it's self causing this and not something that is likely to be outbred. With all the generations of spider X normal females so far it's no doubt an incredibly outbred line anyway. Your note of it not being seen in your original male but showing up only in spider offspring clears that up well.

The only negative I can see is if this trait affects their quality of life excessively but that's hard to measure in a snake. I would say given their not repressed reputation for eating and breeding well it seems unlikely this condition has a big negative effect on their quality of life. Even a moderately stressed ball python is likely to not eat or breed. Anyone work with the tumbler pigeons? Maybe this is something like that.

Do the ones with the twitch seem to be able to control it when they concentrate on feeding or does it just not interfere?

Do the normal siblings feed as well as the spiders? I guess it would be easy to bias such an experiment because you probably didn't keep the normals as long or pay as much attention to their eating. I'm just wondering if the spider gene it's self could somehow improve appetite or if perhaps just exceptional feeders have been bred into the spider line over the years (and of course the original one might have been exceptional by chance) and it's other genetics in the line that causes this reputation.

They are still tops on my want list and you can bet I’ll use my best females for that project (although it might be 2008 or so lol). Maybe after a few successive generations of being bred to the best normal females you would expect to see exceptional genetics gather around the spider gene or any dominant type gene.