Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted this bellow in one of the other threads but the thread took a topic turn, I believe.
See if any of you have noticed the same thing. I don't like to always see a small dragon get pinned with a sticker,,(inbreed, etc. because they are smaller than their clutch mates, esp. at such a young age.)
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I keep my clutches which have been around 20 each, give or take a few, in two bins, half in one and half in the other. By the time they are a couple weeks old, I have to do some rearranging. They form a definite pecking order and the difference in a day or two from hatching can make a "huge" difference in their position of hierarchy. By the time they are six weeks old I have switched dragons back & forth several times, keeping the size somewhat close to each other in the given bin.
My first clutch I kept around until 9wks before I started selling them and the size difference between the two bins was incredible.
I sold one of the smallest ones fairly cheap because of his size and the person who bought it said it had almost doubled in size within a few weeks. They named it horse because it eats so much. He was not an overly aggressive eater when I had him.(still waiting to see pics,,hint,hint)
The reason I believe that happen was because it was taken out of its pecking order (he was close to the bottom) and he was put with other dragons who he dominated and became the top one who is growing like a weed.

So,,, just because some dragons may be smaller than their clutch mates does not mean there is a problem with them, like inbreeding, etc. It can be the individuals place in it's pecking order.

If there are any other signs which would indicate any health issues than there may be something to worry about but size does not necessarily indicate a problem, especially when at such a young age and it's kept in a group environment.

Don't get me wrong, if it's 6 months old and look like a 2month old, there is a problem. I'm talking about young ones.
And I am not saying that inbreeding does not cause such problems. I'm just saying, if you see a small dragon at such a young age,, it does not mean it's a cause of inbreeding or even early breeding. I should have added , I did not allow my female to breed until she was around 2yrs.

These girls are all from the same clutch at 7wks. The two big ones were from the larger bin and the small ones from the small one.
The size difference is close to the same of the one I was talking about above where when it was placed in a new hierarchy, he took off and almost doubled in size within 2 -4 weeks.

Has anyone else noticed anything similar?

Just my opinion,and observations.
Joel R

Hey joel,
These two males were from the exact same clutch and only three months old. There is defintly a pecking order within a clutch. kinda like african cichlids. The most dominent one gets most of the food and is under the least amont of stress. So that one grows the fastest out of the clutch. I've noticed that when I keep hatchlings back and raise them together they tend to grow slower then if I raise them individualy. I also have a red female that has been raised by herself for two years that is the size of the smaller male in this picture, and she was the biggest one out of the clutch.
You're probably looking for a response form some of the larger breeders, but I thought I would put my two cents in.

peace,
nathan

Yea, I agree there are different levels of aggressiveness inside each clutch, and you do have to be careful of the size difference. Aggressive dragons will show their dominance over others and take a variety of the best things for his/her self. i.e. food, branches, hide spots...

But, it's also important to note that it's not always a dominance issue with a dragon that grows slowly. Sometimes it's just because that dragon is a very stressed out dragon or just not as strong for whatever reason. I've had a few dragons that I bought elsewhere and when I raised them up in a trio.. one small female didn't eat much at all and refused to grow.. after two weeks of "settling" in she never adjusted so I put her in her own cage and she still did not thrive. She had everything under the sun, but she was just picky. She would not even eat crix if there was a person in the room. She would watch the crix for like 5 minutes before she would begin to eat. If she heard or saw any movement, she would not eat, and she was in a tank all by herself with solid sides so she could not see other dragons.

Women LOL JK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

I should clarify, I'm not at all saying that if a dragon is falling behind that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

There can be a huge array of things that could be wrong.

I was just making the point that it does not mean that there is definitely something wrong either. My main point being "inbreed just because of size".

Thanks for making that point a little clearer than I did.
Joel

Didn't mean to sound like I was correcting your post or anything like that at all... your post was very true.

I was just saying for others out there reading this that are not as familiar that other things cause it as well. You are absolutely correct, it's not always inbreeding or overbreeding for that matter... it is just like humans.. take 100 human babies and some will not thrive as well as others for a variety of reasons.

Good post Joel. Good info.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

I have to agree with you Joel in that inbreeding could possibly be a cause, but more than likely is a quick label.

Hierarchy, both physical and social, plays the greatest role in growth rates in my opinion. I have however received 8mo dragons that appear as if they were 3mo. Once seperated and relieved of pressures of dominant individuals they usually triple in size in approx. 45-60 days.

Each breeder has a different feeding regimen which plays strongly into their growth as well.

It is very common to have remarkable differences in size with comparison to other clutchmates. Each dragon has it's own metabolism and physical agenda. This can be witnessed well with large groups of hatchlings. I currently have seven to eight week old dragons that resemble 4 week old individuals.

If you have space, seperate half a clutch individually and see what your results are in comparison to grouped dragons. You might be surprised.

All in all, we will probably never really determine the genetic or inbreeding component that may cause runts, etc., but you really have to look at what you are producing and the amount. We are still at pretty good odds considering the relatively small amount of founding stock that has evolved into what we now produce.

Not too many SFY/Red Flame het Leucistic X Citrus/Orange Glow dragons running around Australia! LOL
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Galen Clark
www.captivescience.com

n/p

Am I making this point because of the two in the pic as a sales thing?,,
No. I am going to be holding on to them to see how their growth changes in different settings.

I just didn't want anyone wondering. LOL

Joel R