Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This article is a good example of what the humane society and organizations like them are doing for us. In the ad link, you will see the article that was published today. The law goes into effect Jan. 1st 2005. Andy

Link

I don't like the idea of enacting any kind of law to regulate or prohibit the ownership of any kind of animals, but considering how poorly so many people keep, for example - burmese pythons, I can't help but agree that there should be some kind of regulation.

If people were just responsible about keeping such animals it wouldn't be necessary in the first place to even consider these laws.

I don't like it, but I feel it is necessary. And I believe it is largely on account of those irresponsible people who don't properly care for the animals and those who exploit them because they think its 'cool'.

- Mark
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>>This article is a good example of what the humane society and organizations like them are doing for us. In the ad link, you will see the article that was published today. The law goes into effect Jan. 1st 2005. Andy
>>
>>Link

People who are caught practicing poor and dangerous husbandry should loose their animals. Granted their are too many of those people but their is not a huge problem. I would be willing to take in quite a few of these animals (especially females) so I am sure this can be handled without laws and bans. These laws affect primarily the most dedicated and responsible people. People that should not have them are not that sad when they get taken away. It is the responsible people who are loosing their animals for no reason other than a ban who are affected. I am not a fan of any new laws to regulate. However, I would be in favor of distributors being placed with some blame and charges if in fact they sold to a person who was irresponsible. This would cause the industry to regulate itself and keep the responsible people in without problems.

I think you're right - these kind of laws would work against those who do keep the animals responsibly. But I think it would be exceedingly difficult to enforce a law that holds distributors liable for selling to irresponsible keepers.

I think the best approach would be to setup a permitting and inspection process. That way, those who prove they can responsibly keep the animals would be able to continue doing so, while the 'others' would be weeded out.

- Mark
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>>People who are caught practicing poor and dangerous husbandry should loose their animals. Granted their are too many of those people but their is not a huge problem. I would be willing to take in quite a few of these animals (especially females) so I am sure this can be handled without laws and bans. These laws affect primarily the most dedicated and responsible people. People that should not have them are not that sad when they get taken away. It is the responsible people who are loosing their animals for no reason other than a ban who are affected. I am not a fan of any new laws to regulate. However, I would be in favor of distributors being placed with some blame and charges if in fact they sold to a person who was irresponsible. This would cause the industry to regulate itself and keep the responsible people in without problems.

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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile Breeders
sonoranreptile@cox.net

That would be fine...the problem is that kind of enforcement takes a lot more time and money for inspections when a simple confiscation and fine is easy and pays for itself over. This is why I like to stay away from any new laws period.

This is not a reply to any 1 person, but to all.

I'd be willing to bet there are already sufficient laws in place regarding the care of nearly any pet. They do not enforce the laws already in place. This goes for just about everything we do. Creating more laws we will not enforce, or that punish the law abiding, is yet another example of how far off our country is. If someone is going to be reckless in their behavior, regardless the scenario, then they should be held accountable! They are not! I've mentioned this before! Drunk driving, theft, rape, murder and yes, horrible pet owners. There's this concept called deterrence which we have forgotten how to use. It starts with discipline which we complain about. Until we, you, us can realize all we need to do is fairly and consistently enforce the laws we already have we are all beating our heads against the wall.

ALL YOU PET OWNERS WHO THIS PERTAINS TO...YOU NEED YOUR ANIMALS TAKEN AWAY...AND YOU'RE LIFE AS YOU KNOW IT TURNED UPSIDE DOWN! I'm talking heavy fines, jail time, or maybe even treated the way you treated your pets. Our country could make back some of the money this would cost and YOU SHOULD PAY FOR IT! Oh...but wait...we have rights! Act like an idiot and you just waved your rights!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

1.0.0 Burm, Moses
0.0.2 Ball, Chico & Chewy (rescue, many scars)
0.2.0 Cats, Merideth & Hannah
1.0.0 Black Chow, Pivo RIP Oct 23
1.0.0 Blue Chow Puppy, pick up 18 Dec
1.4.0 Rats
0.2.0 Humans (a little obnoxious though)

pretty well said...but it still comes back to money. It costs money to punish people with jail time. Anything that is likely to end up with a lot of time in court is also avoided. Fines and confiscation is usually simple. But in order to enforce that to neglegent people, they will usually just place a ban so their is no question. They have it...so they pay it. Proving neglegence needs to be proven. I agree, this counrty is very very messed up.

Agreed!
Unfortunately it's not going to happen any time soon. Nor is the "fair and consistent" enforcement of the laws. To many of those in the position to do so abuse the power they have. Seems to me we have a couple options though. We can fix what ails this society... or we can move. Just my two cents.
Bill
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1.0 normal burmese
1.1 coastal carpets
0.0.4 ball pythons
1.0 amazon tree boa
8 assorted mammals

This law is BS. Yes there are irresponsible owners but banning/regulating ownership wont do anything. There will be a black market anyway. Look at marijuana. It is illegal but it doesnt stop people from smoking. The laws regarding ownership is a blanket solution that will hurt everyone including the responsible owners who have a passion for reptiles. And why should I pay $80 to keep a permit? Thats nonsense. Also, I agree it will be hard to crack down on breeders that sell these animals to irresponsible owners. There isnt many ways to enforce that. But I think breeders should be forced to give a pamphlet to all customers that contains detailed care sheets regarding proper husbandry. This has always been my thought. Most people dont provide proper husbandry not because they want to harm their pet, but rather ignorance....they dont know how to properly care for them and arent aware of their requirements. Look at this forum for example. Many people ask questions that should be given to the owners when they buy the reptile. Asking questions is good, but having the information from day 1 will benefit these animals and the trade as a whole.
They should also be informed of their size potential, rather than withholding that information to make a quick buck.

As many have mentioned, owning a burm is a large responsibility. The previous poster gave me an idea, although the system will ban before enacting such an idea. Perhaps before owning a burm you should have to go through training. Not allot, but just enough to ensure you are educated on what you are about to purchase. The consumer pays a small training fee and gets a certificate to prove training. This certificate is the only way you could purchase such an animal. Yes, it is controlling but we wouldn't be complaining about this ban. It would also weed out the impulse buyers and possibly those who could not afford it. Unfortunately there are not enough snake owners out there willing to come together and help each other solve the problem. The system will bandage (not fix) this problem by banning our pets until we can find a way to fix this problem for them.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

1.0.0 Burm, Moses
0.0.2 Ball, Chico & Chewy (rescue, many scars)
0.2.0 Cats, Merideth & Hannah
1.0.0 Black Chow, Pivo RIP Oct 23
1.0.0 Blue Chow Puppy, pick up 18 Dec
1.4.0 Rats
0.2.0 Humans (a little obnoxious though)

Good idea! A permit system similar to the one they have for concealed carry might work. Not just for burms but for snakes in general.
Bill
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1.0 normal burmese
1.1 coastal carpets
0.0.4 ball pythons
1.0 amazon tree boa
1.0 lovable mutt
1.1 mice
1.1 guinea pigs
1.0 ferret
0.2 silly cats

I have very mixed feelings on this issue. I don't believe that truly responsible folks should be punished and they should be allowed to keep their burms; even if that requires a special use permit and an accompanied fee. Most of these individuals do a number of education programs and rescues thus giving their cause some level of legitimacy. Unfortunately, those folks are few and far between. Our facility alone rescues over 50 burms annually so it is a MUCH BIGGER problem than what most people think. Most (at least 95%) of these burms that come to us have some level of RI problems. Why? Because they keep them TOO COOL, TOO DRY, and in CRAMPT conditions. Oh yeah, some "expert" here says that you should hibernate burms....only if you want a nice taxidermied animal on your wall!

Just look at this forum....it continues to boggle my mind by the absolutely HORRID advice I see. You have people who keep a SINGLE burmese python speaking as if they have been keeping and working with this species for decades (I HAVE!!...but I don't proclaim to be an expert, I just share my experiences which includes not only working with 100's of burms but having kept several into their 20's/30's). When I see people using the word HIBERNATING and BURMS together I can only laugh....but then I feel terribly upset that some newbie burm owner is going to read some of this garbage and then cool down their burms. Guess what happens?...They get RI and battle it for the rest of their life or pass on!! Okay, enough ranting.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Like always Rob...I will back up your post. I do not think nearly as many people should be keeping the burmese python and I blame the albino for most of this. Somehow this creature has been an acceptable pet store snake for quite some time. This makes absolutely no sense to me when P. sebae and E. Murinus are rarely seen in a store. While I support people being able to have these animals as much as I support them being able to lose them when they are caught practicing improper husbandry. If you read my post "Rob..." in the thread on the exotic pet thread you will see a lot of my opinion. I think none of these animals that regularly grow over 10 ft should be in stores where people come in to buy "a snake" and have no idea what they are getting into. I also believe Green Iguanas should be 500$ each. You are going to see terrible advice in these forums because tons of people have this animal and they feel they know. The only way to help fight it is to offer correct advice. Some people will undoubtedly be stubborn. It is amazing that when I am in the anaconda forum it is pretty relaxed and good advice is given. And if something is incorrect you can usually count on Kelly Haller to correct it and the entire forum listens. While in the venemous forum you do not see the massive levels of irresponsible advice either. I am glad to see that in these 2 forums but I feel the burmese python is no different in demanding care. just my opinion. PS. hows that baby albolabris doing : )

I'm going to have to agree with rob on this one as well. Of course we all get upset when we hear about anything that threatens our liffestyles and for some of us our livelyhoods, but for the love of god, let's not try and plead our case by saying "it's no big deal". IT IS A BIG DEAL!!! it's a 20' long and 300 lbs type of big deal. If you think that 50% (my guess) of the people who have reptiles in general and 75% of the people who have burms(if not more) are irresponsiblble keepers than you are sh***ing yourself. Like green iguanas and sulcatta tortoises, the burmese python market has spun out of control and it NEEDS to be corrected. We can get upset at whoever we want to..the govt, new york state, pet stores, etc.. But the fact is that this is a problem we have caused for ourselves. There are too many people out there taking advantage of the fact that these great animals breed so well in captivity and slamming them out in ridiculous numbers only to be sold to any mook with $35. Earlier this year, I saw a guy at I.R.B.A sell a baby burm to a lady who knew absolutely nothing about burms and was buying the snake for her 7 year old son! It's crazy. Instead of taking the time to explain to her what a catastropic mistake she was about to make, He just put the snake in bag and handed to the little boy saying "aww.. did mama get you a little burm? you gonna take it to college huh." So who's to blame when that snake is a sickly, drastically underfed 6' two year old living in a 20 gal tank that gets dropped off on the local "snake guy's" doorstep? Or when it's the next snake to be on the news for hurting (or worse) a child? It certainly isn't the little boy's fault. And did His mother have any Idea that that 18" baby would get that big that fast? Of course not, no one ever thought to mention it! So who's really to blame then? That guy at the show. Although it was extremely ignorant of that woman to buy an animal without doing her research, He should have known, and done better. He takes the guilt and shame in that case far more than the irresponsible owner. These same situations happen all the time, in every city, in every state.. And yes, even on KS. IT HAS TO STOP!! Are laws the best way to stop it? No. The perfect situation would see way less burms produced each year and none imported *ever* and every potential buyer going though an approval process. But.. that is not going to happen because people are way to greedy to let it happen. So what can we do now? Its time for regulations! If even a small handful of pet stores and unscrupulous breeders stopped selling burmese pythons to every idiot that decided it would be cool to have a big snake to show all his buddies as the result of this ban, the world will be a better place for all those involved, especially the burms themselves and those of us charged with cleaning up these moron's mistakes. If you haven't had at LEAST 5 years of experience working with boids and you're thinking about getting burm, do us all a favor...DON'T!! They are not toys, these are huge, long-lived animals that need expert care and can seriously hurt a person. Most are mistreated, and in the end we have no one but ourselves to blame. To keep the same thing that has happened in New York from happening where we live, it is up to us as hobbyists, breeders and responsible keeprs to fix our mistakes and move on.

Come on..you think it takes 5 years to learn how to take care of a burm?? Your the one doing the sh***ing now...The care is basic and easy..the only thing is the size. What are you going to practice on in those 5 yrs?? Boa's?? they dont get anywhere near the size as some burms....Its the same stuff the venomous people tell you...they all tell you to go get a aggresive non-venomous snake and practice with that...thats like practicing basketball but playing on a soccer team..its not the same...i dont care how you look at it.
I dont think a burm should be a first snake but 5yrs is a bit excessive
I totally understand your point about irresponsible owners but a ban isnt going to stop that.....how many people do you drive past on a daily basis that have no insurance or drivers license?? Laws didnt stop them....
I also am wondering why burms are still being imported, and balls for that matter...there is pleny here and absolutly no need to import any more....

The biggest point that I am trying to make with the 5 years statement is tha snake are way to often an impulse purchase. We've all been guilty of it at some time. Way too many go out and buy a ball, then a boa the a burm in a short ammount time only to decide ayear or 2 years later that snakes just aren't for them. I see this all the time and I see this especially true with the burms. I think if someone has had a few species over the course of a few years and managed to keep them all healthy, and they are still in love with the hobby then they areexperienced and commited enough to get a burm. Do you think that some guy who has had corn for a year and read a couple posts on KS is ready to own a burm? of course not! Burmese pythons are not for everyone, espeacially young kids and anyone without a good chunk of husbandry experience to back them up, PERIOD

If you are the tupe of person that goes extreme into things and spends all their hours of the day reading up on their animals and participating in KS threads then it is likely you can speed that time up. A person that is truely dedicated to an animal they love and has a true passion for burmese pythons can get away with it in less time. But these snakes can grow 10 ft in a year (I know they can) so I do think plenty of experience needs to be had before purchasing one. If the care is so simple then why do I come across so many that are overweight and have RI's? And as far as venemous..you need experience. If you dont have any expereicne with an arresive snake then you have no business with venemous. You need to spend you time planning out you caging and layout of the roon before you get your first venemous. You need to have ALL of your safety tools like tongs, hooks, tubes, telephone, etc. before hand as well. You need to prepare medical information to be put in the room you have your snake(s) as well as mutliple parts of the house including a list of what you have, the correct AV and proper dosage, the species and a description, and any other information about yourself or people you live with that is important in case a bite occurs. This is not something you take lightly. Do in the venemous forum and read W von Papineu's posts of articles involving venemous snakes. For a snake keeper to think they can get the experience from having the snake is rediculous. You need plenty of experience before hand and should have worked with anything like that before you decide to take on the responsibility on your own. The hobby is getting these laws because people think they know everything and it isnt until they are told or the mess up and are placed in the hospital that they know the huge mistakes they were making. venemous and large constrictors are not to be taken lightly. How many of you have LOCKS on your enclosures and have them in a separate room? And how many of you have them in an aquarium with a heat lamp and a heavy rock sitting in your living room? Venemous snakes and huge constrictors are not "pets," they are a huge responsibility and if you do not show that you are the responsible person and fight for educating and promote extremely responsible keeping, then you are representing the irresponsible population and are the reason the laws occur. People are afraid of snakes...you need to show them why there is no reason to be afraid of your snakes because they are secured in a room in securely locked enclosures and you take NO chances and have plenty of equiptment in cases of emergency.

sorry for the spelling errors..I just read through right after I posted...venomous, go (instead of do), etc. I was typing extremely fast there and did not catch most. I get extremely worked up over this issue. I can tell when Rob Carmichael is serious about something as well because his typing gets lazy too : ) It just shows the passion for animals

That is a good question and I think 5 years is actually a pretty fair assessment as to whether someone is ready to take on the responsibility of keeping a burm or not. BUT, there are many important variables that dictate whether a person is ready or not: maturity, age (BURMS SHOULD NEVER, EVER BE KEPT BY MINORS...sorry), commitment, physical ability, resources, space, just to name a few.

Once again, I will just point to the statistics. Our center alone rescues over 50 burms annually; most from well intentioned people who were just grossly misinformed as to what they are getting themselves into. Burms do NOT make good pets simply because MOST people cannot provide the proper care for them...it is just that plain and simple. Does that mean someone shouldn't get a burm? Of course not, but it does take a person's honest self assessment of where they are at in their lives and whether or not they are ready for this type of responsibility.

Burms arent the only snakes that are not care for responsibly..balls corns, you name it they have all had problems...you hear more about the burms because they are big.
As far as venomous you cant get experience from a non-venomous snake..you just cant....you should practice with somone that knows what they are doing..thats what i did....
You can gain experience from owning a snake..its called learning..you cant learn everything about the snake before you have it..you have to do some learning as you go.
I didnt say run out and get yourself a gaboon with no experience, but your not going to get all the experience you need before you get the gaboon...each snake is different and your going to have to do some learing on your own
And yes i have locks on my cages, and a separate room
I dont understand how people think there basic husbandry is difficult...its no different than many other snakes i own...proper heat,humidity,enclosure,food...thats all stuff somone can find with a spare hour and a computer.
what makes them more difficult to deal with is the size and potential danger they pose.

I also do not agree. People practive poor husbandry with canines, and the public is still allowed to keep them.
Can anyone guess which breed is noted for biting the most people?
Yet we have "experts" quoted in the article talking about 15ft boa constrictors. Anyone ever seen a RTB that large?
If not, you are not an expert I guess.
If anyone has ever worked with this type of legislation, it is usually a first step towards a larger ban.
For what? Most interviewed said the complaints were few to non existent. So why was this ban needed?
I can guarantee, that all the animal rights groups banded together, and organized. Wrote letters, emails,etc...to help get this ban signed into law.
What did herp owners do? Other than those on KS, or other groups, most likely nothing.
Emails? Letter writing is better. Email can be deleted.It's hard to not notice a large sack of mail dumped on your desk.
The law is stupid and ill conceived.
Just look at the quote about underground animals. No ferrets in NYC, yet 10,000 lbs of ferret food are sold.
Enforcement of this ban? Will it take away sorely needed police resources needed elsewhere?
I mean, let's be honest, there are no other crimes, so we have to use law enforcement somewhere.
And it does'nt protect the animals we love, and enjoy.
It helps euthanize them. Euthanize...a fancy word for kill.
So what are we protecting? Who is this ban protecting?
This law was a political move, plain and simple. Something most ordinary folk could care less about.Snakes. Most people get the willies from them. And then they read about 15ft boa constrictors, or black mambas.
But who the heck keeps bighorn sheep???
I equate this law, to a politician running his mouth about gun control. Good press...a feel good law...but does absolutely nothing.
They wont enforce those laws...but they'll enforce a ban on burmese pythons...then kill...I mean euthanize them.
Euthanize...does that cure RI?
Dumb law...taxpayers money could have been spent elsewhere.
Once again, the people that wanna do right are legislated against.
And exactly why does the permit cost 80$? I doubt if it would be because of the revenue in the general fund it generates.
Sorry I rambled here. I've just been a part of fighting dumb laws, that when I see a bill like this, and then the even dumber newspaper article, with quotes by "experts". I go off a bit.
I'm off my soap box now..I promise.
Bob

np

Nice point about the dogs...i was watching animal planet last night and some person had 30 or 40 cats in a single wide trailer house with crap and pee all over the place..it looked awfull and from what i could tell smelled worse.....one of the animal control officers had his leg cut pretty darn bad by a cat.....you dont see people running out to ban cats now do you???
And the 15 RTB I've never seen one..i have seen a 10ft RTB and it was huge....15 doesnt even sound realistic

burmaboy said, "What did herp owners do? Other than those on KS, or other groups, most likely nothing."

Actually, the Western New York Herptological Society is the reason that the entire Boidae family is not banned. They provided more accurate information that wasn't available and got many species off the list. I don't know all the details, but I am sure they tried to get the whole Bodiae family off the list, but had to probably compromise somewhere. If you look at the original bill the whole family was banned, then Pataki's office contacted the WNYHS and asked for thier input. Before making blanket statements like, that make sure that what you speak of is the truth.

I agree that horrible owners should be held responsible for mistreating their animals, but isn't that the case now with ALL pet animals. I could have sworn that was why the humane society has such strict regulations on who gets to "adopt" their dogs, cats, etc. What happens to the folks who have 100 cats in their house and are raided by animal control and sent to jail. I don't see anyone leading the way on banning cats as pets. How about the inbreds who keep horses in concentration camp-like conditions; underfed, dirty and near death? I'm not sure I have seen legislation enacted on banning horses as pets either. As far as I know, horses kill more people in the U.S. each year than any other "domestic" animal as well. (Far more than wild and captive snakes combined).

My opinion is as it always has been: MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN SUPPORT OF THIS LAW SEE SNAKES AS EVIL ANIMALS. Period. It is a law bourne out of ignorance and indifference. If snakes were cuddly aniamls who do everything that their human "master" wanted them to, there would be no discussion about banning them. They would simply prosecute the person(s) responsible for the abuse and mistreatment and the resposible owners would not have to reap the wrath of government interaction. Isn't that what their supposed to do anyway?

I am really wondering what's next. New York now, L.A. and other parts of California next, and then maybe on to your hometown afterwards. It is easy to sit by and say that the law is agreeable...until it affects you personally.

Banning the keeping of reptiles by all people in a region, area, city or state because certain people abuse and mistreat them is a knee-jerk reaction by close-minded people. Next they will be ban people from having children because some parents abuse them as well. Sad, sad, sad.

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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile Breeders
sonoranreptile@cox.net

"...It is easy to sit by and say that the law is agreeable...until it affects you personally."

Exactly.
The laws I've worked on are hunting laws. Outdoor sports laws.
Amazing, the different types of hunters wont support the others in many cases.
The bowhunters wont support the rifle hunters, no hunters will support the trappers...etc etc.
Until each one's own personal thing is attacked.
Then all of a sudden, they want to unite.
It is dangerous to agree with this law. Your town may be next.
Your burm may be next.

Anyone who would support something like this should be run out of town. Once the government starts protecting people from themselfs where will they stop. More people die from ant stings than all the banned reptiles put together. We need to ban ants next. Then we can start with the people who drink coffee, these are really dangerous people. No telling what people who are strung out on coffee will do. Hell we are only trying to protect you. The government always knows best I'm told. I live in California and I could tell you alot of storys about how the well meaning assholes have protected us. We hold a corner on the market of well intentended laws that have run over our rights in the name of protecting us. I just read the new law and I find no exception for dwarf Burmese Pythons that only get 5 or 6 feet long, a real danger to everyone. Gee I guess they just missed that one. I have some of them myself and I'm not really worried about them getting me in my sleep. I also have some dwarf boa's from Mexico, they only get 4 feet long, guess they missed that one also. I've also caught and had hundreds of boa's and never saw one even close to 15 ft, but of course that is the reason they banned them because they all get 15 ft. long and eat babies.
Michael Luhrs

Anyone who would support something like this should be run out of town. Once the government starts protecting people from themselfs where will they stop. More people die from ant stings than all the banned reptiles put together. We need to ban ants next. Then we can start with the people who drink coffee, these are really dangerous people. No telling what people who are strung out on coffee will do. Hell we are only trying to protect you. The government always knows best I'm told. I live in California and I could tell you alot of storys about how the well meaning a**holes have protected us. We hold a corner on the market of well intentended laws that have run over our rights in the name of protecting us. I just read the new law and I find no exception for dwarf Burmese Pythons that only get 5 or 6 feet long, a real danger to everyone. Gee I guess they just missed that one. I have some of them myself and I'm not really worried about them getting me in my sleep. I also have some dwarf boa's from Mexico, they only get 4 feet long, guess they missed that one also. I've also caught and had hundreds of boa's and never saw one even close to 15 ft, but of course that is the reason they banned them because they all get 15 ft. long and eat babies.
Michael Luhrs