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Strange change in sleep cycles...

boidsntegus Dec 11, 2004 02:11 PM

My tegu is about a year old. He hasn't hibernated this year and is still an eating machine. But he has changed his waking hours gradually over the last 2 months from waking at 4pm to waking as late as 11pm now!! Recently I have been waking him as soon as I get home for maybe 3 days in a row, then seeing the 4th day if he wakes earlier on his own. He continues to rise at a later and later hour. I leave food for him and leave the lights on He's in excellent health. But I don't get to see him as much unless I go through the trouble (for me and him) of waking him, or unless I am up late that night. His old schedule was perfect, he woke about an hour or two before I got home, then went to bed right before I did. Anyway, has anybody heard of this before? Does anybody have any idea what to do about it? Thanks for any advice!
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-Bill

1.0.0 Albino California Kingsnake
0.1.0 Colombian Red Tail Boa
1.0.0 Jackson's Chameleon
0.0.1 Bearded Dragon
0.0.1 Argentine Black and White Tegu

redatoryLizard@Yahoo.com">PredatoryLizard@Yahoo.com

Replies (17)

beardiedragon Dec 11, 2004 05:01 PM

the healthiest thing for your Tegu is to get a timer and put it on a 12-14 hr cycle. Time of day does not matter, length of time does. By waking him up and having him on an inconsistent light cycle you can screw with his metabolism and internal clock. Sorry to say it but you need to work around his schedule if you want him to stay healthy
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Bennett


beardiedragon.com
Home of the Florida Orange

theTegu Dec 12, 2004 12:49 AM

I agree completely. Timers are ten dollars or so, that shouldn't be an issue. I set my timer for a 12 hour period which matches our daytime schedule. The main reason is I hate sleeping with part of my house fully lit up.

Rick
theTegu.com
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theTegu.com

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edited signature file.

Edited on December 13, 2004 at 19:36:45 by phwyvern.

boidsntegus Dec 12, 2004 08:31 AM

If you saw in my first post, I am leaving the lights on 24/7 right now. I am working around his schedule. I cannot use a timer because for some reason, everyone I tried causes my floods and mercury vapors to flicker. Don't know why, but I gave up after trying 3 different timers. Anyway, he is in excellent health and always has food and heat. I am just wondering if anybody has any ideas how to get them to adjust their cycles?
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-Bill

1.0.0 Albino California Kingsnake
0.1.0 Colombian Red Tail Boa
1.0.0 Jackson's Chameleon
0.0.1 Bearded Dragon
0.0.1 Argentine Black and White Tegu

redatoryLizard@Yahoo.com">PredatoryLizard@Yahoo.com

beardiedragon Dec 12, 2004 08:46 AM

24/7 is BAD don't do that! they need to cycle and cannot do that without a photo period! He will never have a schedule until you give him one.
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Bennett


beardiedragon.com
Home of the Florida Orange

tc5000 Dec 12, 2004 09:06 AM

n/p

kofseattle Dec 12, 2004 12:13 PM

I have my floods on 24/7 and have since Tegan (my blue) was a hatchling. I have never had any problems with appetite or anything else and he is an above average sized Tegu in excellent health. When he wants sleep he goes into his hide and covers the doorway with mulch. His way of turning the lights off I guess. I have to disagree that this is a "BAD" thing.
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Peace!
KofSeattle
Reptile-Like
Here lizard lizard.........

theTegu Dec 13, 2004 12:18 AM

My goal as a tegu owner is to attempt to recreate the environment that the tegu is most comfortable, including a regular photoperiod. Is a photoperiod similar to what they get in nature good? I assume. Is it bad? I can't see how. If we were to keep the tegu on a 24 hour light cycle would it die? Probably not, but it could indeed mess up the reptiles psychometric functions (sleep behavior, reproduction, vitamin absorption). I don't have a lot of time to do the research of documented papers to fully prove this, but here are a couple quickies...

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Dystocia (egg retention, post-ovulatory stasis) is very common in many reptile species; one of the documented causes is "Incorrect lighting or photoperiod", information published by Holly Frisby, DVM, MS. Veterinary Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc

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When writing about the care of reptiles in general, Pough states, "An annual cycle of day length is usually critical, especially for breeding colonies."

Dr. F. Harvey Pough; Ph.D.,University of California at Los Angeles, M.S., University of California at Los Angeles, B.S., Amherst College

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Just because some people's tegus are doing fine with a lack of a regulated photoperiod, does not mean it's 'good'. My grandmother has smoked since I was 6, she is alive and doing fine. Doesn't make smoking good for her.

A natural photoperiod is, in my opinion, better for your tegu then an unnatural 24 hour period. What is your opinion?

Rick
theTegu.com
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theTegu.com

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edited signature file.

Edited on December 13, 2004 at 19:35:23 by phwyvern.

kofseattle Dec 13, 2004 07:38 AM

I simply stated that this worked for me. My blue tegu is more than likely the biggest blue tegu you ever saw. Healthy, fat and a real sweetheart. I simply no not have the time that you do to engage in long drawn out "discussions" regarding what you have researched. I am telling you what worked in a real life experience, not what I read in a book. Just to give you something else to look up in a book; I have not used UV since he was a year old either, surely he will die now? Forgive my attitude but I am speaking from experience not what I read somewhere.

Is this the monitor forum?
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Peace!
KofSeattle
Reptile-Like
Here lizard lizard.........

theTegu Dec 13, 2004 09:32 PM

I think you are getting a little testy. The point you made, based on your experience alone, is that it's not bad to use 24/7 light. I pointed out that it 'can' be bad. Not that a tegu couldn't still live under 24/7 lighting. Just that people who actually spent years studying these effects say that it 'could' cause issues.

If using a regular photoperiod has no risk or harm on the tegu and the 24/7 does have a slight risk, then which is actually the safest route.

And if you don't have time for a discussion, then why bother bring up UVB? Looking for a discussion? Since you brought it up. I think UVB will not hurt your tegu. Do I think you need it? Maybe not as long as you use D3 suppliments, but again.. I use it because I would rather be on the safe side.

A post was replied to and you didn't agree. You posted that 24/7 lighting isn't "BAD" because you do it and your tegu is fine. I posted studies (meaning people with years of experiance in the field studying the effects) where they say 24/7 lighting could be bad. Just because it didn't hurt your tegu doesn't mean it's not "BAD".

My point is that people should be informed that it COULD be bad and let them make a choice. I have fed my tegu goldfish in the past and the tegu grew healthy and strong. Does that mean goldfish are not bad? Well, it turns out they can be. I was informed, did some research and no longer will feed goldfish to my tegus.

I was not (nor am I now) attacking you. I am pointing out that people should err on the side of safety or at least have the option to. Don't you agree? How would you feel if someone did use 24/7 lighting and it screwed up the tegu and it refused to eat, breed, etc?

Take it or leave it.. but at least we both stated our opinions.

Rick
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theTegu.com

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edited signature file [phw 12/13/04].

kofseattle Dec 13, 2004 11:12 PM

Uh Yeah, "testy" is a good clean word for my attitude towards you and your argumentative posts. I guess I am just tired of wading through all of your hoo-haw to get to the good information that use to be here. This info was from people who actually know what they are talking about, not what they read or heard. It appears that you just enjoy telling people they are wrong and quoting others so you can argue. Oviously you have little first hand info yourself.Choose to deny this if you like. Read down the posting board and then tell me I am wrong. People like you bring out my bad side and I don't particularly like "mean ken" so I do apologize to anyone I may have offended, this is unlike me to post to this kind of crap. Sometimes I just get more than my hip waders will take. Sorry I tried to keep my mouth shut, didn't work.
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Peace!
KofSeattle
Reptile-Like
Here lizard lizard.........

theTegu Dec 14, 2004 12:11 AM

You have your opinions and thats cool. We all have issues and we don't all agree. Saying I have no experiance because I quote doctors and scientists who backup my opinions is rather ignorant. They are still my opinions based on my experiances watching two tegus for years and now with the tegus I recently purchased when I had to return the tegus I had 'tegusitted' for. It just means I personally like to check my own opinions against facts and know how true they may be.

I do indeed post my opinion and because this doesn't agree with yours and you take issue, fine. That, as stated above, is your opinion.

Do I like a good discussion? Sure I do. Thats why I am on this "discussion forum", and if you notice the stuff in the last discussions I was in, that you had to 'wade' through.. at least it brought some discussion/activity to the forum. If people agreed with me or disagreed it was fine. They participated and thats what I enjoy, as I am sure many of them do. Look at all the lurkers it brought out.

Lets take a look at my past discussions as you told me to, since I am so argumentive. There was the moss one, turned out to be an error on my side for not knowing there was a difference between a type of moss and a type of peat moss. I admit, I am not a gardener. I bowed to Stella and appologized for my ignorance on the matter. Then there was the origins of the blue tegu. The one where almost everyone on the forum became active and posted their interest. I will admit, as I have prior, that I know nothing about blue tegus. I do know that it is fact that T.teguixin is listed by scientists (ya, those whom I quote that you feel have no idea what they are talking about) as having one loreal, where the blue has two. I am interested in knowing what the actual species is. So are many others on this forum and if you are not then stop 'wading' through the posts and ignore them.

I did not personally attack you or your experience, yet you do me. If you have an issue with me then so be it. Just ignore my posts (don't read 'em) or learn how to read other peoples opinion and either view it with an open mind, prove it otherwise, or ignore it completely.

Rick

tc5000 Dec 13, 2004 03:08 PM

Again I am not trying to be argumentative only trying to offer other opinions. Additionally I understand that FR is talking about Monitors in the below information however I believe Tegus at similar enough animals to go with the same theory. Please also understand Frank has tremendous experience to back up his thoughts and observations.

Frank's words from the KS monitor forum: Fri Nov 19 22:44:11 2004
I have explained how we came to use lites 24/7. Lets try again. For the first 6 or 7 years of successfully keeping and breeding monitors, we used lites, on in the day, and off at night. But thanks to my experience with wild and other types of captive reptiles, I already understood how they use heatsinks. So I provided heatpads at night. They will use heatpads without a problem as a heatsink.

As time went by and my collection multiplied, I had many many cages and keeping track to see if the pads were working became a problem. I could not tell if they were working or not, by glancing.

Also, I grew tired of replacing heatpads, left and right. So, as a quick fix, I would leave the lites on, well over time, I saw no problems with this, in fact, I saw several benefits.

Now to change the subject a little, you see your three monitors, you have givin them names based on behavior. Do you really think one is shy or bashfull? In most cases, thats a reaction to lack of direction. The shy ones, have no options. (remember, this is only an example, it doesn't matter why or what you named them)

Please consider, there is a active dynamics in your cage. To call one dominate or another the opposite, shy or recessive, is not very accurate or useful. What we have seen is, the cage lacks options. In nature, the less successful individual, will go find a home of its own. In your cage, you do not allow this. Well the next best option is to provide, a second choice. This is the ability to avoid the others and bask or feed at another time.

Why its not useful or accurate to call one dominate or recessive. Well, its momentarily accurate, but if allowed, the recessive ones can and do gain strenght and can and do completely dominate the "dominate" individual. The point of 24/7 lites is, to allow more choices of basking. May I add, in a cage thats too small and lacks options. Which I believe, includes almost all of the cages we keepers have. I imagine the best choice is to put them in a 20 foot long cage. But thats really not going to happen very often is it? Yes I am talking about ackies. And yes, I did keep them in a cage 20 x 20 x 10 foot tall, it seems they have a chase distance of about 15 feet, give or take a few feet.

With the above said, my concern is, confusing a litebulb with the sun. I do not think monitors think or treat a litebulb as the sun. I also believe, they "feel" the sun coming up and going down. Buts thats a story for another time. The real facts are, our monitors do down in the evening and come up to bask in the mourning, no matter what the lites are doing. Except, when for reasons not well understood, they move at night without lites of any sort.

Now please, I do not think I know it all or anything like that, I simply have monitors completeing life events, in natural sun with a natural photoperiod, under lites 24/7 and using lites with an artificial photoperiod. And have for a very long period. Which should mean, I do have an opinion, and if my opinion is different then others who do not have this experience, then thats how it should be.

Above i said, artificial photo-period, yup, thats right, natural photo-period changes each and every day and uses the sun. Artificial photoperiod, is set for long periods and uses a litebulb(not the sun) Thanks again, FR


Actual post

tc5000 Dec 12, 2004 09:07 AM

Hello boidsntegus, sorry to confuse the issue and I do not mean to be argumentative with Bennett or Rick but the great thing about a forum is exchange of ideas. I am sure I do not have the experience Bennett but I base part of my theory on thoughts and observations of Frank Rates from Goanna Ranch who is one of the most experienced and successful monitor breeder in the US. FR’s belief is than no mater what kind of artificial photoperiod cycles you provide a monitor they are still fully aware of when the sun and moon rise and set. I believe true in tegus as well. I think it is natural photoperiods that trigger hibernation behavior. My tegu schedule and behavior has been very similar to yours before and after. However since the change I have seen some odd things that you may not be seeing. I am able to come home at lunch and have been surprise to find Lucky out basking occasionally; my wife is home by 2-3 and has also found him out at unusual times. On top of that recently I have also found him out basking between 11pm-1am. I so not believe Lucky is sleeping in later he is just moving slower and just laying around in his hiding spot due to his instincts telling him to hibernate even though he knows the temps have not dropped and there is plenty of food. I think what you are seeing is a slow down due to the hibernation instinct.

I used to use a 12 on 12 off photoperiod for my tegu that is just over a year as well. However when he went to sleep for 3 weeks I decided to leave the lights on 24/7 to assure him the temps would stay up. By leaving the lights on 24/7 you give your tegu more options as to when he can fulfill his needs. You may also convince him the temps are not going to drop. My tegu is back out and maintains a sporadic schedule some days he is out for only an hour and some days 5-6.

dragonfruit_85 Dec 13, 2004 04:07 PM

I try to recreate what would happen in nature. The lights stay on right now from 8am to 6pm, or so. I used to leave his light on 24/7 and he didnt seem to mind either way. He did however stay up all day and night, I could tell because he was bumping around in the middle of the night. Along with lighting, he gets fed at different times, and not always the same thing. Today it was a fuzzy at about 12:30pm. Tommorrow, who knows. My preferance, and my tegu's it seems, is to have the light go off at some point. BUT now he does sleep regardless of when the light is on. I dont think 24/7 lighting would hurt, its just not the way it would be in nature, because they can always burrow if it gets "annoying" or something. Then again, these animals are NOT in nature, they wouldnt normally fo out and catch mice and rats that are parasite controlled, they would pick up worms and ticks and lice. Everyone has a different opinion of what is best for their reptile, and if it works, kudos to them.
-Beth

kofseattle Dec 13, 2004 06:17 PM

What happened to that poor little baby Tegu? Is that a severe case of MBD?? Poor little fellow
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Peace!
KofSeattle
Reptile-Like
Here lizard lizard.........

theTegu Dec 13, 2004 10:12 PM

I think I recall her saying that a handful of posts back. It's really sad, but if I recall she worked with the tegu and it is now doing good. I am sure she will post some more details. It is indeed a sad, sad thing.

Rick
theTegu.com

dragonfruit_85 Dec 14, 2004 09:38 PM

Well maybe you do. Yes that was a pretty bad case, but the end result was only his jaw being misshapen, and a few of his toes splaying out. I got him from petco, was told he is a girl, they also told me to get him a 20 gallon long which would be "good for a long time," and if he had grown properly, it wouldnt have been. At his size now, 21" snout to tail, he is growing pretty fast IMO. I put a lot of the blame on the petstore, but some of it was my own ignorance, I knew the heat rock was a bad idea. But they told me that as long as I had a special light bulb, he didnt need to be supplemented. Liars. So I researched him quick and found out, surprise! He needed a whole lot more than they told me, but by that time it was almost too late. A few months after getting him, he developed an abcess on his jaw (you can see the result of that) and MBD (obviously). I took him to a great vet who drained the abcess, gave my syringes and good food, and didnt charge me a dime. SO, now he is doing very well, I am almost ready to measure him again and hope he has grown a little. Long story, sorry, I just dont want people to think I did this to him, I just trusted a trusted petstore and they blew it. Thanks for your time.
-Beth

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