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The best way to stop bad laws like NY's...

Doug T Dec 11, 2004 06:33 PM

I've seen a lot of chatter about what people can do to stop bad animal laws that effect us herpers from passing. I think that there is something totally being missed.

People that have hots, big lizards or snakes in state that allow them can do so mostly because those states don't have any laws regulating the keeping of those animals. If your state has no laws pertaining to those animals You should talk to your legislators about introducing legislation that will keep your herps legal.

Introduce an idea to your local representative or senator that will require licensing of these types of animals. Then if groups like the USHS tries to implement a bill to ban the keeping of the animals, your state will already have leglislation covering them, and the licensing will be considered a revenue generator for the state. Don't be paranoid thinking that stormtroopers will smash down your doors if you have a license. Trust me, you want licensing. Licensing allows the keeping of the animals in question.

Ask anyone in a state that bans herps like NJ or NY if they would prefer a licensing system over a ban and they'll say they wish they had it.

I have 100% certainty that nobody reading this will do what I suggest. But when the day comes when your state bans your animals, you will think back on this post and realize you blew the chance to protect yourself.

Don't think someone else will do it... Just go do it.

Doug T
Doug Taylor Reptiles

Replies (4)

thecaiman Dec 12, 2004 09:04 AM

Please don’t any individuals try to do what he said.

Many of the states that don’t have laws its simply because no one has ever tried. Honestly do you think any politician that looks at a piece of legislation attempting to keep venomous snakes, crocs etc legal is going to say "sure". No, they are going to say give me one valid reason you should be allowed to keep a spitting cobra, nile croc or a croc monitor. The 3 prior mentioned animals there is none. The only reason a citizen will own any of those is because they want to. Or because they think it is their right, you tell a law maker you should be allowed to own a cobra because its your right as an American and he’ll laugh in your face. Education? well that’s what zoos are for. The thing we need to realize is there is NO valuable reason for any of us to own boas much less any of these reptiles except for the fact we want to. The only valid reason we can use is education for conservation, teaching future generations, that can be shot down by saying take the kids to a zoo.

And don’t try to use dogs to compare the problem is that when regulating dogs it’s a fine line. It is not a fine line with reptiles. Granted there are dangerous breeds of dogs but dogs are companions, its been proven that having a dog or a cat can lengthen an elderly person life because of the companionship. Dogs are used for work, dogs can lead the blind, sniff drugs etc. Granted more people are killed by dogs ever year then reptiles etc etc but no one on a state level is ever going to touch dogs so it really has no relevance. Its like alcohol compared to pot. Far more people are killed every year by booz we all know this. Personally I think pot should be legal. I don’t smoke it anymore myself but in my younger days I did. We got stoned we sat around and vegged we kept Doritos in business. We got drunk, we got rowdy and wanted to go cause trouble. As far as wear and tear on the body, alcohol is by far more toxic then pot(im just talking straight pot, they mix all kinds of crap in it these days) But pot isn’t socially accepted, alcohol is. Try and use all the stats proving pot is a safer drug then alcohol to legalize it and they will laugh at ya, why? Not because the stats mean anything but because alcohol is socially accepted. Either both should be illegal or the safer of the two legal, where’s the sense in it. Its Pretty much the same thing with the dog verses reptile argument. One is socially accepted and one is not.

Dont get me wrong I have spoken to many people about a permit system like you speak of I know some people dont like the one in FL but like you said its is better then nothing. The thing with those permit systems or take the great state of PA heres their state wide law towards none native reptiles “No restrictions on the possession of non native species”(for anyone reading this township or city laws supercede state laws, so that’s why their may be laws in your area.) I don’t have the dates when they were enacted but guessing from the writing the law quoted above from PA and I am sure the permit system in FL were done back in the 70’s, 80’s or maybe even before that. In the other writing from PA there scientific names that havnt been used in yrs, that’s why I say that. My point is they were done in a time when people were more open to things they were not as quick to just slap another law down and be done with it. Today what do law makers do? They have one law that doesn’t work quite to their needs, instead of fixing it they slap 5 more on top of it.

When single people or small groups approach these law makers they will do the same thing. If you never owned a snake and had no understanding about these animals and you came to find out that your next door neighbor owned a cobra, would you want that next door to you children? , in a house 15ft from the grass your kids play in? Now I am not the type to get involved in other peoples business but being open minded about the situation that would make me nervous. Even today after 17yrs or so I have had reptiles, Ive kept cobras, rattlers, gaboons etc it would make me nervous. The thing is accidents happen, animals get lose all the time, go open all your cages and after 15 minutes see how many are still there. These animals want to be free nothing wants to be caged. In any event the only way these laws will be stopped or made reasonable is by organization and mass numbers. Law makers answer to power and nothing else and when you have thousands standing behind you chanting the same thing as you, you have power. They know if they do wrong by you it could be the end of their political career.

However if some small group of people go to them with your idea. For the sake of this argument lets call you idea the “save the reptiles law”. A politician is going to look at that and say “ I may get your 1000 votes for trying to pass this however in the next election when my opponent runs TV ads etc and says that by passing this I have endangered the masses in this state how many votes will I lose? You know what he will come up with? “Nope we cant pass the save the reptiles law as it is, first we must change the name to the dangerous animals act, next we must ban all thing dangerous to the general public” Threw his eyes he is going to think he made society safer and no body will be able to use it against him. And in his eyes what will the cost be? 10-15 a couple hundred disorganized votes, so really he lost nothing. On top of which how are most of use reptile people viewed? Most people who are on the outside, not all but most, view us as the outcasts of society, druggies etc so that politician is going to look at that and think well out of the hundred people who stood before me in support of the save the reptiles law probably only 10 out of that hundred are even registered voters. Don’t take me wrong I know better, I sell rodents to doctors, lawyers all kinds of white collar people along with blue collar people but that is how we are viewed.

Good intentions but don’t open the door to future legislation. To do anything like this your best bet is to get with your local herp society and get every herp society and herp related org within your state on the same sheet of music, contact PIJAC as well as Jeff B who runs this site. Jeff Knows a lot about legislation and dealing with these types of issues. Before you do anything do all that and see if everyone thinks it a good idea. The simple fact is without enough power good intentions can lead to bad laws.
-----
Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)


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thecaiman Dec 12, 2004 09:20 AM

And as far as revenues from licenses in NY state they are finding that this grandfather clause where people who had these animals prior to the law being enacted can keep them by acquiring a permit is going to be more costly to the state then the fees made via the permits. So in the case of NY the state is going to wind up forking out some dough for their permit system. When other states see that the permit system in NY was a financial burden on the state they are not going to be up for the idea.
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Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)


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Doug T Dec 12, 2004 06:15 PM

I suppose it doesn't matter whether it's licensing or some other legislation. I've developed my opinion because here in Washington state all hot keepers are going to lose the right to keep hots period. I have yet to see any hot keepers at any of the legislative meetings where the API is trying to ban all boas, pythons, monitors, green iguanas, turtles, frogs and hots. They attacked first and since there is NOTHING on the books regarding exotic herps, they were able to introduce a bill that labeled all these animals as dangerous.

There were no laws pertaining to exotics. Because there was no legislation, the door was opened for the bad API sponsored laws.

If you don't like licensing, that's fine, come up with another plan. Doing nothing and NOT working towards some legal recognition of the animals we keep means you WILL lose the right eventually.

Get something on the books so that when someone tries to introduce a bill that will ban what you keep, they will have to prove that the law on the books isn't working.

Good luck out there...

Doug Taylor

>>Please don’t any individuals try to do what he said.
>>

>>Good intentions but don’t open the door to future legislation. To do anything like this your best bet is to get with your local herp society and get every herp society and herp related org within your state on the same sheet of music, contact PIJAC as well as Jeff B who runs this site. Jeff Knows a lot about legislation and dealing with these types of issues. Before you do anything do all that and see if everyone thinks it a good idea. The simple fact is without enough power good intentions can lead to bad laws.

Doug Taylor Reptiles

thecaiman Dec 12, 2004 10:11 PM

My point is if you introduce something regaurding keeping hot snakes it will never pass as easy as you think and you wont get what you want. Your good intentions would get turned around on you and they would use your effort to ban the animals. But as you said No one is showing up for those meetings, no power, power is in numbers. Right there is the problem in this situation.

I have nothing against licensing, hell, id pay $1000 a yr to be able to keep hots without harrassment. Ive brought the topic up to many about trying to pass something like that in this state, but it would never fly. The simple fact is unless we all as herpers get our sh!t toghter and our heads out of our butts our days are numbered. Its that simple! Ive been around alot of years up until the late 90's every once and a rare while you would hear of a ban in some township somewhere but never state wide. 4yrs ago things on the state level started picking up then the last 2 have been none stop state after state.

"There were no laws pertaining to exotics. Because there was no legislation, the door was opened for the bad API sponsored laws."

I am assuming some politician told you had there been something on the books they wouldnt be passing that? If so it was only to get you off his butt, nothing more. Had you introduced by yourself or with a small number of people the legisation you speak of they would have turned it around on you and used the door you opened to throw you out in the cold.

Im just being realistic, while the general public is fasinated with what we do and these animal they do not want us living next door to them or even on the same street for that matter. They would sooner send everyone of us to the arctic and let us come visit so they could gauk at the animals from time to time then then send us and the animals back so they can feel safe again.
-----
Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)


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