Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It seems that this subject is seldom discussed anywhere that I know of. Is it too dangerous? Is it bad for business? Is it too politically sensitive?

This is talked about privately between individuals, but I've NEVER seen it publicly dscussed. (If you can point me in the direction of public forums on this, please do - I'd be keen to read them.)

Let's talk about it.

In email communication last year with Adam Britton, he mentioned to me the moral question of forced hybridization: Should we humans be toying with the gene pool?

We know nature does this, notably with the populations of C. acutus x C. rhombifer in Cuba. Should man, for commercial and personal reasons, cause it to happen?

Flora and various fauna have been hybridized for centuries, from orchids to dogs. In the crocodilian trade, hybrids are becoming more popular. For instance, the genetic purity of many circulated C. siamensis specimens is highly questionable. (One hopes DNA-reading technology will advance quickly enough to keep up.

Are we actually endangering species by hybridizing them?

And how about the value of hybridization for research purposes?

I recently visited the excellent Alligator Adventure park in South Carolina, and had the pleasure of encountering the giant Utan, the C. porosus x C. siamensis hybrid from the Samutprakarn Crocodile Zoo in Thailand. Certainly, his popularity as a spectacle raises public awareness of crocodilians and nature in general, surely very important subjects in or time. Is the super-growth value of these hybrdis worth it?

I have been uncomfortably anxious on this issue for some time, and have not reached my own conclusion. I'd like to hear what you have to say. Care to share your view?
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Israel Dupont
Winter Haven, FL

it seems i have posted a few questions about hybreds and recieved only one answer but not on the board i was emailed instead .i even asked if utan was a hybred you have now answered this for me thank you my view on this subject is in conflict with myself. ihate snake hybreds.no two ways about it on the other croc hybreds are the only way i can have one so this makes me selfish and self serving.even tho my croc is getting the best of care it still only serves me.i am in the opinion that if youbreed any animal you should have the right to do with it as you see fit provided that the animals are cared for properly .as long as hybreds are represented as such i see no problem.breeders have a huge over head and are entitled to get some return on their product after all the whole animal bisness is for profit. but is mostly done by true animel lovers that dont see much profit very often

I copied this from another forum. I thought you might like to read it.

Hybridization in private collections will in no way
lead to extirpation of the species. The animals in our
collections are quite removed from natural populations
anway, pure blood or not. One could argue that
breeding two same species animals together that are
both poor specimens would be more detrimental to the
species than breeding two non-same species animals.

Hybridization has sometimes played a significant role
in evolution and natural selection. So (in the wild)
if the hybrid is a successful animal than it could
replace both previous species, or it could fill a new
niche that neither parent species filled. If it is an
unsuccessful hybrid (in the wild) than it will quickly
die out and be of no consequence. That is the beauty
and simplicity of natural selection.

Hybridization does open the genetic flood gates.
Recessive traits like albinism are often detrimental
and unsuccessful. The more genetic diversity in a
population, the less chance of recessive traits.
Hybridization is often unsuccessful on the species x
species level, but this is because it is a giant leap
in terms of evolution. Evolution usually takes baby
steps. What happens more often is hybridization on the
sub-species level. Such as in dogs or humans. The way
Dr. Rabin (my mentor at the University and a brilliant
world renowned biologist/ethologist) describes it is
like this. The term breed (like in dogs) and the term
Race (like in humans) are synonomous with the word
sub-species. By definition a labrador breeding a
doberman or a black man "breeding" a white woman is
sub-species hybridization. In both cases, the
offspring have FAR fewer health problems than either
parent sub-species. The hybridization increases the
genetic diversity exponentially. It is in genetically
UNdiverse populations where problems arise. Dalmations
are often deaf, pugs can't breath, many breeds have
hip dysplasia, most albino tigers (cats not retics)
are cross eyed. Mutts don't have these problems by and
large, and each generation that is more "mutt"
exponentially decreases the chances of having these
problems.

I researched a study on dogs. They looked at dogs in
the 30 biggest cities in the world. I mean London, New
York, L.A., Bangkok, Buenos Aires, Hong Kong, Madrid,
Paris, etc and what they found was the same everywhere
they went. All the dogs from around the world that
were successfully living on the street and being, well
successful at meeting their needs all looked the same.
They were all medium haired, medium colored, medium
sized dogs. This is due to sub-species hybridization
on a global level. This kind of thing doesn't happen
right now in Pythons, even a small group like Pythons
look drastically different depending on where you are.
Spotted vs Calabar burrowing vs Retic vs Chondro etc.
Colubrids however which are more evolved are much more
uniform.

Bottom line, I am all for preserving species for
historical or even sentimental reasons, but it isn't
neccesarily what's best for the animals. Throughout
history, sometimes it is best for a species to die out
and something new and diffreent to take it's place. Of
course animals like Retics are basically dinosaurs and
are and have been successful for a long time, and with
the exception of the human factor would continue to be
successful for a long time. I'm not suggesting that
these animals are unsuccessful and need to die out,
I'm just using some hypotheticals to discuss the
hybrid issue.

The beauty of natural selection is that a hybrid can't
hurt a natural population. If it is unsuccessful than
it will quickly die out and not pass it's genetic info
to the next generation. If it is successful than it's
a success! Now I am talking wild populations. In
private collections none of this matters because none
of us are going to release ANY of our animals into the
wild anyway, pure blood or not. What you do in a
private collection should have no consequence on wild
populations whatsoever.

DITTO

There is absolutely no Pro for a targeted hybridization in private collections.

Venemousviper,

Thanks for adding that post you found. I have a response to it, which I'll post soon.

Ralf,

Thanks for offering your view. I'm interesting in hearing your reasons for that position.
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Israel Dupont
Winter Haven, FL

Izzy,
will send my more detailed comments asap, but im just too busy with my work and preparing a Thailand trip.
Ralf
Link

Well I personaly am neither for it or against it, I own some hybrid crocodilians that I find quit interesting, I have also have seen some simply amazing hybrid crocodiles.

What it breaks down to though is this, Crocodile Farmers cross breed siamensis & porosus because of the skin quality and because this hybrid will grow at a much faster rate, thus making them better to obtain farming goals.

I will have you know that Croc Farmers over sea's would charge much more to sell you a "live" hybrid compared to a "live" pure crocodile. For example you might be able to Purchase a baby Siamese or Saltwater Crocodile for $100 but it may cost you around $300 - $400 to receive a baby hybrid Siamese X Saltwater.

Here in the USA SOME private breeders are purposly cross breeding crocodile species, granted some accidental cross breedings do occure from time to time in both Private and AZA facilities, but for the most part cross breeding so that they will have crocodiles that are easier to sell, as it is easier to get by federal regulations when it comes to hybrid crocodiles.

Some Private facilities are also cross breeding to get more unique looking croc's, calmer croc's, smaller sized Croc's, etc .. (more pet quality Croc's)

Much like dog breeders do, if you take a chihuahua and breed it to a poodle what do you have (a mut) but now if you breed the puppies, then breed the puppies and then again breed the puppies ... I believe by professional standards you have created a new species of dog that can be registered with AKC and is concidered a full species, I may be wrong as I am no dog expert but I believe I am correct.

Will this or could this be the case with some crocodilians in captivity some day ?? Or inter breeding with so many differant species that no one knows what the croc is except that is a crocodile ??

Now granted I did say I wasnt against hybrids, and im not, in some situations I feel it would be ok to keep and yes possibly even breed a hybrid crocodile, but I dont feel this should be done just so you can sell crocodiles across state lines more easily, and I feel that there would need to be strict control measures or conditions with regards to these crocodiles, Archie mentioned before micro chiping .. now that I think about it that is not a bad idea.

Another thing I have seen is people passing off full species as hybrid just to make some quick cash, this is bad and very wrong. People owning full species thinking they are hybrid, or people owning hybrids thinking they are full species ..this could do serious damage to croc species (in both Private & AZA collections)that are being bred in captivity here in the USA

Just imagine if someone had a group of say 4 female Cuban Crocodiles and they needed a male to breed, they find a guy that thinks he has a pure male Cuban but really it is a hybrid ... and this male gets breed to the 4 females, thus contaminating the bloodline. And what if some were down the line these Cubans make it into a SSP to be bred and some offspring are returned to the wild.

You see what im saying, thats why this subject isnt really talked about, to many what ifs, but again i am not for or against hybrids.

I spoke to a guy earlier today about crocodiles, every time I mentioned a species of crocodile he would ask is it pure blooded, he seemed to think that pure blood crocodiles are rare, it wasnt wrong for him to ask this but its a shame that people would need to ask that !!

to bring this to a end, Ralf is correct there really are no pro's to forced cross breeding of species, but there are a lot of cons involved here

Just my 2 cents ... well maybe 25 cents
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