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Lindsay posted "Two different mutations/genes?" His question is,"Are there reports of breeders unexpectedly hatching normal-looking brooksi/floridana?If these are separate mutations wouldn't that inevitably start happening{due to axanthic x anerythristic breedings or mismatching of "definite hets"?" To answer his question,I say no,we have not experienced these situations.With this information in mind,I retract my statement in my discussion with Brandon.I once again say they are NOT anery and axanthic.I beleive they are genetically axanthic only. Anyone beleiving they are anerythristic,please inform me as to why they are anerythristic.Thank you,Tim Ricks

tim-
I posted a bit down wondering this, anery ve axanthic. the reasoning behind it was, looking at the extreme red lavender albinos, apparently some are offspring of snows, the homozygous expression of lav albino and axanthic. i questioned if both genes ( high red albino and no yellow) are homozygous in the snow, why don't we see the red in the snow morph?

you might know of one but i can't think of another example where anyone crossed a high red animal( talking brooksi/floridana here) to an axanthic to see what the result is and see if red is expressed over axanthic. ...but then of course over on the bull/pine forum the consensus is that red coloration in bulls is not controlled by simple recessive genetics so who knows if "anerythrism" exists in fla kings or???

if someone was able to demonstrate red in what we call axanthic brooks/floridana that would be the easiest and most concrete evidence in my book for plain "axanthic".
i agree on the definition of the terms (axanthic/anery)but what i have seen doesn't jell with the definitions 100%.
-dave b

You bring up good points and questions,some of which cannot be answered at this due to lack of knowledge of what is happening with reds in south florida kings.What I do beleive is before we have an animal and call it anerythristic,{meaning no red}we must first have adult animals that do express red.What is called anerythristic brooksi/floridana did not come from a lineage of red adults.

"What is called anerythristic brooksi/floridana did not come from a lineage of red adults."

But the amount of red produced by your line of snows and lavender albinos says a lot more than that. Are your snows producing red pigments? The het snows and lavenders that come from your lines are high red. Wouldn't that make the snows anery too?

Brandon Osborne

I will not say that the snows are anery as you ask for the simple reason I do not have animals that I can guarantee will produce reds from a pair called het for anerythristic.

white brooksi?

Thanks shannon

i agree, there has to be a line of brooksi that can be shown to produce red adults and i would like it preferrably without the influence/ confusion of other recessive traits- squeeze the red out of the extreme lav albs into a nice normal line until the albino influence is no longer expressed, but leave the red in there! i don't think the erythrism or i should say the anerythrism that we are trying to prove or disprove has to be a simple recessive gene either judging by the complexities showing up in milks & bulls with these sorts of issues but it would make it "easier".

we've been going around on this issue each year in this forum for as long as i can remember!! some has been real good, sometimes it got ugly. i say, let's find a professor or a lab that is willing to do the genetic testing, everyone contribute one axanthic offspring to the test and let's find out. no guts no glory. of course if we find out, what can we argue about ?!?!?

good night/morning
dave b

p.s.the snake below is axanthic and anerythristic

I agree, it would be nice to see a line of reds without the influence of other recessive traits.If Brandon's white line does not carry any recessive traits,it may be the prime candidate for breeding into different locales of floridana/brooksi in attempts to lighten the melanin affect of normals in hopes of expressing reds.

Would someone please figure this all out?!!
I have noticed that we seem to use only a few terms when describing "colors". Say erythrins (red), xanthins (yellow), and melanins (black). Leucosins?? (white)
(*Please forgive spelling and/or correct terms, I hope you know what I'm getting at.)
Is that all there are??
Is what we SEE really what is present/absent?? Basing so much on what we see may be a snag in finding out just what we're looking at. On some animals we see only white, but is it the presence of white or the absence of all others? Same for the rest. And obviously we're dealing with reflected light, right?
Would/should an orange snake look the same as a red one if we could remove the erythrins? How 'bout a yellow one vs. a golden one if we could remove the xanthins?
Doesn't seem so to me.
There has to be more at work.
How deep or how many layers of "color" are there in any given cell? How does one act on/with or react to/against another? Are they all created equal?
I'm very unknowing here and simplistic in my overall view, so bear with me.
Until the physicists, geneticists, biologists, and all those other smart guys figure it out so my simple mind can comprehend, may I just call mine "cool looking snakes"?
Happy Holidays everyone!!
:Mark

...simply because they lack red pigmentation. They also lack yellow pigmentation, which is why I believe they are also axanthic. Whatever gene carries the mutation apparently creates a defect that blocks both the production of xanthophores (yellow pigment cells) and erythrophores (red pigment cells).

If an example can be provided of axanthic floridana/brooksi producing red pigments, then they are not anery. If you've seen bluerosy's ads for his New England Axanthic/Het Axanthics, it's pretty clear that they are anery. The hets have a lot of red on them, while the red (and yellow) is completely absent from the homozygous form.

This WC adult snake from near Lake Okeechobee must not be an FL king.

So far, I still agree with Dave B. and Fox Turtle on this. As Dave pointed out, if these aren't both axanthic AND anery, then why aren't the extreme red lavenders producing red snows. If these were axanthic only, wouldn't we be seeing a white, red, and lavender snake? Here's an adult Flame I produced a few years ago. These are the adult colors at around 3'. Not necessarily red, but very orange.

Brandon Osborne

I can't tell by your picture if that is an adult.What I do see is an example of a typical floridana hatchling.Floridana adults of Lake Okeechobee area have a tighter crossband pattern and are light tipped on each dark scale.

This is from a few days after I caught this snake. I've got big hands, but this snake measured 38" when I measured it a few weeks later. It's not that uncommon to find adults like this down there. A friend of mine found one almost identical a couple weeks after I found this one.

I've caught over 30 kings down by Lake Okeechobee in the past couple years. Your description fits some of the specimens I have found, but most have a bands similar to this snake I have pictured. The jet black scales (no lighter tips whatsoever) on this snake are not typical (2 out of the about 30, as far as I've found), but they are apparently more common in Glades County on the SW side of the lake.

the measurements of your snake or your discription of its locale. When in doubt I refer to Field Guides{Roger Conant,copyright 1958,1975}"A Field Guide To Reptiles and Amphibians of Eastern and Central North America",page 203,Florida Kingsnake,Lamp. g. floridana.Palest of the large kingsnakes.Each individual dorsal scale is yellowish or cream-colored at base and brown at apex.Indications of light crosslines are usually present,especially in neck region.Belly is cream to pale yellow with spots of tan or pinkish brown.That is his discription of adults,nowhere does he mention red in adults.In the young:dorsal crossbands cream-colored,yellow,or reddish yellow on a ground color of brown;many scales in the dark dorsal areas have reddish brown centers;light areas on sides have bright red centers.Range:S.Florida from vacinity of Tampa Bay to southern tip of Florida.

If you were going to call these snakes an axanthic or anery, axanthic would be more fitting/descriptive as red is generally not a prominant color in adult brooks kings.

If a pair of het for axanthic are bred togather you will produce axanthics and normals that express yellows as adults.If a pair of het for anery are bred togather you produce what you call anery and normals that do NOT EXPRESS RED AS ADULTS.This is why I say axanthic.

Lindsay, you bring up a fine example of why the snakes in question cannot be both anerythristic and axanthic.There are no unexpected hatchings,to answer your question.If they were carriers of both anery and axanthic,we would see some normal hatchlings.With this information in mind,"I stand corrected",they cannot be genetically anery and axanthic.Thanks for bringing that question up.Tim Ricks,moving to kingsnake forum.

anerythristic type B cornsnakes. They are both anery and axanthic, but when first crossed with anery type A, produced all normals. They type B anery corns have the same color appearance that the brooksi have. It's a possibility that neither axanthic or anery is responsible in the brooksi. Until cell testing is done, we have to go with what we've been told.....but I still sway towards them being both. What would you call the white phase brooksi that are normal?

Brandon Osborne

Desert Phase!

Not really, but I believe your white brook's kings are comparable to desert phase cal kings VS coastal phase. As far as I have seen, all getula subspecies show this sort of variation, with yellow/brown animals in some locales, and black/whites in others. As far as I know, Florida (brooks) kings from Turkey Creek were typically white. Other locales of FL kings have much more intense yellow than we typically see in captive lines of brooks/FL kings.

I agree with that...although the white phase aren't like the enamel white in cal kings. I just wanted to clarify that. These are more of a bone white. But in essence, shouldn't they be called axanthic? I don't think so, but there is no yellow as adults. Maybe they're hypoxanthic? lol.

Brandon Osborne

Your white line is very exceptional.I think you gave it a name that defines it well."Hypoaxanthic",years from now that could be a possability,I beleive they've defined hypoerytheristic in hondos years after anery hondos were defined.Through your experience with the white line,years and generations of out-crossing into other morphs,your results in time to come will show you if there is more than just an exceptional white to your white line.I beleive any south florida morph bred into the white line will enhance them greatly,it will also help to uncover any recessive traits that may be within the white line,if there is any.

I agree with the white phase being a variant.Here in Louisiana we rarely find holbrooki that are black with very clean white specks.I beleive your white phase is a great find.It should be highly "sort after" since it can be used in all morphs of floridana and brooksi to enhance and create a more desireable and appealing strain of any of the exhisting morphs.

is what we see, red ! maybe an intense concentrated yellow. like saffron appears red in concentrate but yellow when diluted. just a thought .L8r Chris