Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Many of you have explained that education is a good reason to keep a burm but at the same time say that someone who publicly shows their animal is irresponsible. To this I ask why. I enjoy walking with my wife. We'll bring my burm with us on sunny days. He usually rests on my shoulders or just above my elbows as I hold him. We recently moved into our neighborhood and this has unintentionally been the best way to meet people. From what I have seen most black people (I don't believe in politically correct so hate me if you want, this is not meant to be derrogatory) do not like snakes. Likewise more men are afraid of snakes than women. We live in a predominately black neighborhood and on our walks many people have wrinkled their face but, it has never kept them from coming up and asking questions. When they do, we answer them. I ALWAYS explain how much work they are, how big they'll get and how expensive they are and that although he has never bitten me, I always treat him as if he will. We keep strict control of the burms head when others wish to touch him and we'll stand there for long periods of time answering questions. In a neighborhood where most people are afraid of snakes, I've met more people than anywhere else in a shorter period of time and changed many minds on the reality of these creatures. So again I ask....
What is you opinion of this scenario? Am I the ignorant jerk parading around or am I the responsible keeper educating others who might otherwise hate snakes simply because those around them hate snakes.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

1.0.0 Burm, Moses
0.0.2 Ball, Chico & Chewy (rescue, many scars)
0.2.0 Cats, Merideth & Hannah
1.0.0 Black Chow, Pivo RIP Oct 23
1.0.0 Blue Chow Puppy, pick up 18 Dec
1.4.0 Rats
0.2.0 Humans (a little obnoxious though)

I wouldnt say youre ignorant for walking your snake and trying to educate people...I would say its ignorant for you to say 'most black people hate snakes'.

I knew there would be one. I said from what I have seen making this a completely true statement. MOST black people I have met (when the subject of snakes was discussed) are afraid of snakes. You can call me ignorant all you want but this is what I have seen.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

1.0.0 Burm, Moses
0.0.2 Ball, Chico & Chewy (rescue, many scars)
0.2.0 Cats, Merideth & Hannah
1.0.0 Black Chow, Pivo RIP Oct 23
1.0.0 Blue Chow Puppy, pick up 18 Dec
1.4.0 Rats
0.2.0 Humans (a little obnoxious though)

I like to get my guy out on sunny days also and enjoy children especially who come up and ask questions. It is always my pleasure as it seems yours to answer questions and show off a bit in regard to my burm. I have noticed myself that more men are afraid and (very humorously to me)have no problem showing that. Women and children seem to be more interested and eager to touch my burm, maybe to get over a fear in some way.

Only thing is, I live in a very urban nieghborhood so a large crowd (15-20 people)sometimes gathers and that ends the petting zoo session. I also genuinly feel bad when someone is very afraid of a large snake. I don't like putting someone in that situation.

My brother and I had one very bad experience one day with my little old bp. An older black man threatened to cut my snake's head off for no reason. My brother and I are a force together so the bp was not in danger but he had a knife in his hand and ment buisness.

It seems like you have a good situation and are changing minds. It just depends on you particular environment though.
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1.0 Ball Python
1.0 Burmese Python

Both of you (Captainhook and r3ptile) are ignorant, you to are using the word wrong. Ignorant is not a way someone acts. If someone is ignorant, they are uneducated (they do not know about something).

Ex: You are ticketed by a police officer for turning right on red when the sign says no turn on red, you explain to him that you are from out of town and he just doesnt care, so he still gives you the ticket. You dont pay it and are called into court, the judge wants to know why you didnt pay. You tell him that you are from out of town, and that you didnt know. That judge would say "So, you are pleading ignorance?"

Another thing is, most black people are afraid of snakes because they are ignorant in regards to snakes. I do not believe that you are doing anything wrong (walking the snake around), as long as you are know putting a person into a situation where they feel as if they are in danger. How big is your Burm?

Corbin
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1.1 Albino Burmese
0.1 Normal Burmese
1.0 Veild Chameleon
Waiting for more reptiles of any kind

If you want to play the teacher role, then at least get your grammer correct.

Both of you (Captainhook and r3ptile) are ignorant, you to are using the word wrong.

>>Both of you (Captainhook and r3ptile) are ignorant, you to are using the word wrong. Ignorant is not a way someone acts. If someone is ignorant, they are uneducated (they do not know about something).
>>
>>Ex: You are ticketed by a police officer for turning right on red when the sign says no turn on red, you explain to him that you are from out of town and he just doesnt care, so he still gives you the ticket. You dont pay it and are called into court, the judge wants to know why you didnt pay. You tell him that you are from out of town, and that you didnt know. That judge would say "So, you are pleading ignorance?"
>>
>>Another thing is, most black people are afraid of snakes because they are ignorant in regards to snakes. I do not believe that you are doing anything wrong (walking the snake around), as long as you are know putting a person into a situation where they feel as if they are in danger. How big is your Burm?
>>
>>Corbin
>>-----
>>1.1 Albino Burmese
>>0.1 Normal Burmese
>>1.0 Veild Chameleon
>>Waiting for more reptiles of any kind

You know, that really is trivial.

I worked in a pet store for 6 years. On a per capita basis the black folks which I MET and engaged in conversations with pertaining to reptiles were indeed wary of snakes. Lizards though, no problem. *shrugs*

Some of these posts in this thread are a perfect example of a PC world gone mad. Anytime someone makes a statement such as "In my experience the majoirty of the blacks I have met seem afraid of snakes" there always seems to be no shortage of people shouting ignorance and racism. How is the comment any of that? If most of the black people he has met are afraid of snakes then saying that most of the black people he has met are afraid of snakes is just a fact. It doesn't mean it's a generalization for all black people everywhere, just for the persons he has met. I also, have had that experience. So I'll say the same thing. The majority of black people I have met seem vary wary of snakes as compared to the white people I have met.

What's wrong with making a statement like that? It's not saying all blacks are afraid of snakes. It's just saying the black people he has met and I have met seemed more wary of snakes in general.

Sheesh.

well said.

Does this also make you ignorant in that you are using the word "to" improperly? Shouldn't it be "you two". I can appreciate whatever anyone thinks about me or my ideas, you really don't bother me but; I think it's hillarious how you use the wrong word in the same sentence in which you're going to correct my usage of a word. In fact, read your entire response. It's full of imperfections ie. improper usage of words, incorrect punctuation and run-on sentences. Stick to the topic! Goofball!

No! When I walk around the neighborhood with my snake I mind my own business. If I see someone ahead who appears afraid I will cross the street and or keep walking. If anyone who wishes to touch him appears under the age of 18, I insist they bring a parent or guardian out to give face to face permission before allowing them to touch him. I never let anyone near his head and my wife ensures no-one comes up unexpectantly from behind.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

1.0.0 Burm, Moses
0.0.2 Ball, Chico & Chewy (rescue, many scars)
0.2.0 Cats, Merideth & Hannah
1.0.0 Black Chow, Pivo RIP Oct 23
1.0.0 Blue Chow Puppy, pick up 18 Dec
1.4.0 Rats
0.2.0 Humans (a little obnoxious though)

Well said. LOL @ the 'goofball' comment.

>>Does this also make you ignorant in that you are using the word "to" improperly? Shouldn't it be "you two". I can appreciate whatever anyone thinks about me or my ideas, you really don't bother me but; I think it's hillarious how you use the wrong word in the same sentence in which you're going to correct my usage of a word. In fact, read your entire response. It's full of imperfections ie. improper usage of words, incorrect punctuation and run-on sentences. Stick to the topic! Goofball!
>>
>>No! When I walk around the neighborhood with my snake I mind my own business. If I see someone ahead who appears afraid I will cross the street and or keep walking. If anyone who wishes to touch him appears under the age of 18, I insist they bring a parent or guardian out to give face to face permission before allowing them to touch him. I never let anyone near his head and my wife ensures no-one comes up unexpectantly from behind.
>>-----
>>DZ
>>
>>"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
>>
>>1.0.0 Burm, Moses
>>0.0.2 Ball, Chico & Chewy (rescue, many scars)
>>0.2.0 Cats, Merideth & Hannah
>>1.0.0 Black Chow, Pivo RIP Oct 23
>>1.0.0 Blue Chow Puppy, pick up 18 Dec
>>1.4.0 Rats
>>0.2.0 Humans (a little obnoxious though)

I have no problem with taking your snake outside. If somone is afraid of a snake i see no reason why they cant stay away from it....People dont freak out when i take my dog for a walk..and dogs bite people alot more than snakes.
And what is wrong with somone that they threaten to cut off a bp's head....geeze its a little snake.....thats the kind of nonsense i think you are trying to change by taking your snake out with you.....even though most people seem to be afraid of snakes i think curiosity gets them in the end....they are afraid of your snake but obviously you arent and they want to know why..
Have fun with your walks.....

Jason

I think that part got lost in the race card and the english major stuff. Like I said I live in a predominately black neighborhood. Most are afraid but it does not stop them from being curious. They approach me, I never approach them in case it's unwanted, and start asking questions. Next thing you know I am surrounded with people so my wife and I make it a process and lay down ground rules. I've never had anything negative said about these visits. On one occasion a little girl ignored my instruction of not touching without permission. I had his head in case something like this happened. Needless to say I briefed the you child sternly with mommy watching and made her leave. Another time this kid said he wanted one because of how cool they were. I spent some time with this one. I showed him all that was involved, what I had spent this year alone, and many other issues related to owning such a snake. He changed his mind.

Hey all, it was good chattin with you. Till next time!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

1.0.0 Burm, Moses
0.0.2 Ball, Chico & Chewy (rescue, many scars)
0.2.0 Cats, Merideth & Hannah
1.0.0 Black Chow, Pivo RIP Oct 23
1.0.0 Blue Chow Puppy, pick up 18 Dec
1.4.0 Rats
0.2.0 Humans (a little obnoxious though)

Is everyone who posted in this thread in support of taking one’s snakes out for a public “walk” aware of your state and local laws and/or administrative regulations regarding possession of the species in question?

Sorry to be a scold, but this kind of behavior, especially in an urban environment, just hastens the hasty implementation of stupid and restrictive laws which affect all of us.

Also, just a thought if education really is your primary aim – invite your neighbors into your home.

-Joan

Man, I had a nice scenario typed out trying to explain a little further and I lost it. I really don't feel like typing it over again but there a no restrictions in my town regarding the owning or exhibiting of large boids. I'm usually one to follow the law and abide by the rules. I feel I have a pretty level head on my shoulders (you can judge from what I post) and sometimes there will be a rule that is more of a preference of one individual than a rule. If it has good & sensible purpose I'll cooperate fully. If it's jacked up, I simply can't help but going by my own standards. This usually applies to my kids and their school. I have lots of fun there. With the snakes though, if I'm not allowed, I will not push the issue.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

1.0.0 Burm, Moses
0.0.2 Ball, Chico & Chewy (rescue, many scars)
0.2.0 Cats, Merideth & Hannah
1.0.0 Black Chow, Pivo RIP Oct 23
1.0.0 Blue Chow Puppy, pick up 18 Dec
1.4.0 Rats
0.2.0 Humans (a little obnoxious though)

Dude I am only 15, and I type too fast. I also do not proofread my responses. It just kinda bugs me when people call someone ignorant in that manner.
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1.1 Albino Burmese
0.1 Normal Burmese
1.0 Veild Chameleon
Waiting for more reptiles of any kind

Hey man it's all a learning experience. Hopefully what I was able to get across was if your going to correct someone, make sure you are dead acurate. If your not it blows your credibility right out of the water and no-one will listen to or respect you. I understand the true meaning of ignorant and you are correct. I did not use it in it's proper context. I was merely repeating what others have said about the topic and asking your opinions of my scenario. In this forum, as long as no-one is demeaning to others, I love to read the posts and chime in where I can. No-one around here is into snakes and the Maryland & VA show are run by a guy I can't stand. Not to mention they are both a 90 minute drive for me so I'm all alone. On the other hand, when someone comes in and enjoys pushing others buttons, the switch in my head kicks in and I can't help but....you know what, I'm sure you get the picture. Hopefully all sits good with you and I look forward to discussing other stuff with you later. Take Care!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

1.0.0 Burm, Moses
0.0.2 Ball, Chico & Chewy (rescue, many scars)
0.2.0 Cats, Merideth & Hannah
1.0.0 Black Chow, Pivo RIP Oct 23
1.0.0 Blue Chow Puppy, pick up 18 Dec
1.4.0 Rats
0.2.0 Humans (a little obnoxious though)

I do a very similar thing at a wildlife museum I volunteer at. I work with their kingsnakes and gopher snakes (my only routine contact with reptiles Sigh...)
Assuming the weather is good, me and another volunteer bring a snake out to wriggle around on the grass at a nearby park, watching like hawks to make sure the little guy/girl doesn't get stepped on or scared. We answer questions to the best of our ability, and pick the snake up and offer a section of snake body (never the head) to someone who wants to pet the critter.
The response from the public has overall been astoundingly positive.
I used to have the classic knee jerk "don't exhibit an animal in public" thought. But now, I feel that as long as some criteria are followed, it can be a wonderful thing.
Basically here's what's needed, I think. There needs to be a one snake to two handlers ratio for the snake's safety. The snake needs to be calm and docile for the public's safety. It needs to be done in an open and quiet enough area that someone snake phobic can stay a good distance away or not be terrified by a scary animal when turning a corner. And last, new handlers should start with incredibly quiet and calm locations as to get trained to the public's reactions bit by bit.
So long as common sense is maintained (along with an incredible amount of caution and compensation for Murphy's law) it can be an incredible asset for our hobby. It also allows the public to interact with or observe an unusual animal they may almost never notice or see otherwise.
Oh, Safety Tip... A pillow case and small animal carrier (similar to what's used for cats but with smaller openings) in hand is a good way to diffuse and then slip out of a potentially tense situation. Snake in pillowcase, pillowcase in carrier. You get the snake out of sight, you get it out of mind too.
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0.2 chickens
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave)
0.1 Halflinger horse
0.0 reptiles due to living with
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

There is a HUGE difference between an education exhibit in which people coming to this exhibit know that they will see snakes COMPARED to an irresponsible owner frollicking around the park with their pet burm draped around their shoulders. The ONLY thing this does is put another gaping black eye on our hobby and gives fuel for legislatures to continue to put the clamps on herp ownership (and leads me to believe that most, 99%, of people keeping burms, shouldn't). Sure, you'll have a few people approach you thinking that it is really cool, however, what about the person who is caught off guard and becomes scared to death and goes away with an even more "learned" fear of these animals? How is this educational? I hear story after story of these types of things happening and it only perpetuates the stigma that many people have towards herp owners. My wildlife center hosts an education-only reptile show where we bring responsible, professional (in both looks and how they communicate), and knowledgeable folks which also includes a beautiful venomous display. This is the place to have a large snake out in the public! Not the park! I am sure your intentions are good and that you truly enjoy the bonding experience of you and your snake but that should be done in the privacy of your house; not out in the public forcing those who are scared of snakes to become even more frightening; that's irresponsible ownership.

Rob Carmichael

I always have and always will respect your opinion. I need you specically to understand the image of "frolicking through the park" as you say does not quite explain what I do. I am in my neighborhood with people I now know thanks to what I have done. I keep all security measures in place for housing my snake and never go out in public without my wife to assist. This ensures safety is the first concern. I never sneek up on anyone! If someone even appears frightened I move further away. I believe by only exhibiting these animals in a setting where they must put forth some effort to attend will only reach a limited crowd. Most likely a crowd of people who already like snakes. I reach the people who hear the word "snake" and cringe. I have atcually changed minds and impressions of snakes. I have people coming to my house to ask questions and see him. Actually it gets to be a pain but it's worth it to help these people understand our hobby. Again, I will always respect your opinion, just not agree with it this time.

Respectfully
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

1.0.0 Burm, Moses
0.0.2 Ball, Chico & Chewy (rescue, many scars)
0.2.0 Cats, Merideth & Hannah
1.0.0 Black Chow, Pivo RIP Oct 23
1.0.0 Blue Chow Puppy, pick up 18 Dec
1.4.0 Rats
0.2.0 Humans (a little obnoxious though)

I understand what you are saying in that many people will avoid places where snakes are going to be. The zoo I worked at placed their boa constrictor exhibit in a place people had to pass when exiting ther rainforst exhibit. This is because people would intentionally find other outs to go if they knew a snake was going to be there...this way, they have to see it. Where Rob is getting, is all the people you dont talk to, the people who see this and will avoid you at no cost and are further perpetuating their fear having just seen you and the snake. Now they know there are snakes all around them they dont know about and they dont like it. See where I am going? You need to to education where people are ready to be educated. Reaching those who do not go forth to educate themselves should be done yourself and without the snake. You can promote the hobby and offer people to come see you secure display and educate them then if they are willing.

nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree...my response is just coming from being in the profession for over 20 years (and many more as a hobbyist) and having done thousands of education programs in front of well over 100,000 folks during that time....this even includes PARKS but only when EVERYONE attending knew I was visiting to do a snake talk. I talk to people all of the time who do similar things as you with their burms. The problem is, although you are legitimately passionate about your animals which I respect very much, there is a certain image that is projected when a wild animal is seen at a venue outside of what I would consider to be an appropriate place to "teach" people about snakes...that is, you are simply showing up out of the blue to show off your animal for your friends. Sure, you are probably doing a wonderful service for many people but it only takes that one person for which we either perpetuate their fears, or, perhaps worse, could be someone with some clout or power looking for a reason to ban the keeping of reptiles due to "irresponsible" behavior (this is coming from them, not me!). I just don't want to see our hobby ruined. I would encourage you to perhaps put together a reptile education show in a nearby school, community center, even a church....even the park you go to! Promote it, get your friends who keep herps involved...it is really great fun and you will do far more good showing off your prized burm in this environment than the neighborhood park.

That's why I respect you Rob. You are all about the hobby and with a solid professional attitude! Always a pleasure to hear from you!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

1.0.0 Burm, Moses
0.0.2 Ball, Chico & Chewy (rescue, many scars)
0.2.0 Cats, Merideth & Hannah
1.0.0 Black Chow, Pivo RIP Oct 23
1.0.0 Blue Chow Puppy, pick up 18 Dec
1.4.0 Rats
0.2.0 Humans (a little obnoxious though)

Snakes and spiders are always at the top of the phobia lists and people that are truely phobic are not going to be receptive to this type of activity. Since we are already under a microscope its these people that are going to write their elected officials and complain that this is allowed to go on. Its sad, but the people that you may have educated aren't the ones that would have made a stink to begin with and probably won't show up to support you when legislation is proposed. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but that is my feeling on the matter.

That's what makes this forum worth participating in. People like you and the others who share their opinions in a professional manner. We don't even have to agree, as long as we can maintain a standard of discussion. Your experience has molded your opinion just as mine has done for me. There is only 1 right way to care for the animal ie. husbandry etc. But when dealing with people, what works for some won't work for others. I have teenage daughters. What works for one may not work again 5 minutes later for the same kid. Our brains do us in every time. Thanx for your input!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

1.0.0 Burm, Moses
0.0.2 Ball, Chico & Chewy (rescue, many scars)
0.2.0 Cats, Merideth & Hannah
1.0.0 Black Chow, Pivo RIP Oct 23
1.0.0 Blue Chow Puppy, pick up 18 Dec
1.4.0 Rats
0.2.0 Humans (a little obnoxious though)