Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hi all,

i have a couple fishy questions.

i know that some of you include fish as an occasional/regular addition to the couperi diet. i've also read that some of you use tuna "juice" to entice the young to get feeding.

have any of you used cod liver oil? i resorted to smearing some cod liver oil on the face of a f/t rat for my female today (she refused an adult mouse yesterday, a first)-- and she took it without hesitation.

my second question is, have any of you noticed that your couperi are more successful at shedding with fish in their diet?

just some thoughts i'd like some advice on.

thanks,

matt

I've definitely noticed that they shed better with fish included in their diet.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Very interesting, what type of fish do you offer and how often to you alternate with them? My indie has always eaten f/t rats and was wondering if I should offer an alternative. Thanks for your time!
Sincerely,
Roly
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Miami Hurricanes #1
NATIONAL CHAMPS 83,87,89,91,01

I use whole trout from the grocery store for the adults and smelt for the smaller guys.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I too have noticed better sheds with fish as a STAPLE part of their weekly diet.
I have also noticed something else..........

Anyone care to guess what it is?

If you answered the overwhelming STENCH than you win!

Drymarchon fed on fish unleash something that has to be experienced to be understood. It is SOO much more than that waste from two rats fed 6 days ago. I call it..............

"THE STENCH"

As for cod liver oil...I suffered under the use of this evil concoction as a child..and vowed to never let it enter my house as an adult. So...no cod liver oil thankee very much!

OLD freezerburned rainbow trout seem to work well. Mackerel do also.

Glad you didnt ask about frogs, thats a whole OTHER subject.

*Cheers*

Fred Albury

Now you done did it. I gotta know about the frogs!

Eric

Eric,
Ok..since you yanked my leg, I'll tell ya! "UNCLE"for Crying out loud!! enough!!

Frogs: These simple creatures are RELISHED by Eastern Indigos. Because of high concentrations of bacteria and internal parasite loads, I have rarely fed them in the past. But...thats not the ONLY reason....I have another one...even .more.gruesome...darker...more macabre...what more could you expect from the likes of me ;>

And heres the dirty little secret:::
Often when feeding frogs or Toads(Not suggestable because of toxicity) what goes in end #1....comes out INTACT from end #2.. Or at least PARTS of the frog do. I have witnessed the following "pieces" turning up in the stools of some of my Easterns over the years: (You MUST sing this to the tune of "Doll Parts" by
Courtney Love.)

**FROG PARTS*
" I've seen..frog feet...frog hands...frog legs...frog HEADS....frog jaws . They smelled like a) Chicken that has been left in the sun in a plastic bag for several hours b)Cottage Cheese that has been left in your car for a week and forgotten c) A loaded diaper that has been sitting in theback seat on a Santa ana Day in Southern Calif."
You get the idea.............
Please realize that the Indigos involved were VERY HEALTHY and were kept in optimum conditions. Had enough heat, but not to much and had hideboxes also. Lest these atrocities be blamed on lack of husbandry on my part. Nope.
As I aid I dont feed frogs often at all, mebbe I am to squeamish(But then you ask, what the heck am I doing owning Easterns and being squeamish in the first place) mebbe I just dont like the thought of parts sticking out of the urate/waste pile. Mebbe it was something I saw on T.V. as a kid. I dunno..

I just suggest that Frogs not be used as a food item except in the case of the most fussy neonates. Hope these "gems" of knowledge will help you all.

Merry Christmas,

Fred Albury

Good gad. Sounds horrible. I had to laugh while reading though. More at my own morbid fascination than anything else. Guess I'll not try feeding mine frogs though. Bb-b-b-aa-a-a-rffft
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Thane

I had an eastern hognose for many years that finally died last year. Last summer, I discovered I still had a HUGE bag of about 40 or so frozen toads that had been in the freezer the better part of a year. Feeling pretty confident that bacteria and parasites would have been killed after being frozen for a year,

I thawed a few and tossed them in a couple indigo cages.

WHACK WHACK WHACK !!

They LOVE 'em. Easterns and Texas both. I ended up thawing out the whole bag and feeding them all of. They were sucking them down like popcorn.

I don't remember the feces being any more nasty than usual (which is already bad). I do remember it being a little different. Much darker in color. Almost black.

From the descriptions of those who have fed frogs and toads, it sounds like they are a prey item that indigos LOVE. It makes me think of the Australian Red Belly Black Snake.

They come from damp areas, mostly areas with lots of frogs, their prefered prey. They also look almost identical to indigos. If it weren't for the deadly venom, they'd be a cool snake to work with too...

Doug T

Elapids in general and Drymarchon.
Especially cobras and many of the Austrailian elapids.

Parallel evolution?
Maybe.

But...I wonder if they are not just actually closer relatives than we think. Perhaps both groups came from a common ancestor on pangea, and when the continents split, those that ended up on the eastern hemisphere went in a different direction and developed venom, while the western version developed the grab, crush, slash method of killing, or perhaps they already had it and had no reason to evolve as the eastern snakes did.

It's scary how many similarities there are between the 2 groups of snakes.

They are almost as similar as humans are to bonobos!
(Smiles and winks at non-evolution folks)

I agree, the similarities between Drymarchon and Elapids is mind boggling. Not only morphiologically, but behaviourally as well. Cobras act a lot like Drymarchon.

Bonobos and humans? Um....no.

(Non-evolutuionary beleiving person that I am...does it show?

Besides, Bonobos are nicer..............

(

I picked up a Red-Bellied Black Snake (Pseudechis porphyriacus) from a fellow in Alabama. I think he may have gotten them from Hank Molt, but I'm not sure.

It was a great snake, VERY Indigo-like....what I found was that it did not live up to it's reputation. It was not at all bitey or aggressive. Actually a rather passive critter.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I took these pics in Oz in Grampians national park. We helped this little guy off the road. Rather Indigo like wouldn't you say.
My personal take is that the most efficeint models for survival in snakes are what we see today. That's why there's several types of black snakes with red bellies... Indigos, Red Belly Blacks, Mussuranas, etc... There's probably been several species of snake that have evolved and gone extinct that looked just like indigos... and more will follow when we're gone.

Fred,

I have been feeding my Drys, all 25 of them, F/T bullfrogs and trout weekly for five years now, with no complications. However, I will agree to the mess they can make after such meals..

Jeff

in years past, I have gotten stubbon babies started with cod liver oil, but have tried it recently with no luck.

It really suprises me b/c nothing smells fishier than cod liver oil!

I have thought about using it as a suppliment for shedding, but, the stuff is LOADED with vitamin A...which worried me a bit. Not sure if that could have any adverse effects.

I was thinking of trying this when feeding indigo F/T mice to see if it has a good effect. The oil supplement caplets you can get for human consumption contain little or no vitamin A. Carlson has a pretty clean product. These oil supplements are taken by people to help with many things, like retaining cognitive abilities (epa and dha are used by the brain, they're even added into infant formulas), helping avoid plaque build up in circulatory system, skin health etc. etc. I think just small amounts would be all thats necessary. I don't know.
They eat fish from time to time in nature, so I don't think there's any danger to them from it. May be interesting to try on an intermittent schedule to see if any positive results are possible.
Thanes Place

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Thane

I have been feeding all of my Drys trout, bullfrogs, quail, quail eggs, chicken, rats. mice and baby rabbits for several years now.
My feeding schedule goes something like rodents / fish / fowl / frogs / rodents, and all are fed two - three times weekly.
So far, I have incurred no dermal problems or difficulties during ecdysis. Knock on wood!!
I have used the juice from tuna (water packed only) to entice stubborn neonates and juveniles, but I have incurred far greater success scenting with chicken and quail. All of my YT babies have been started on feeder goldfish and minnows, as even with tuna scenting, they seemed to have little interest in mouse pinks, until such time the started feeding with regularity.
I have used fish oil caplets and cod liver oil alone, but the Drys really "liven" up on trout day and I feel as though “whole” fish, or any prey item for that matter, are better for them…

Jeff