Reptile & Amphibian Forums

WDIV (Detroit, Michigan) 15 December 04 Canton Man Will Pay Fine After Snake Bite
Canton Township, Mich: A Canton Township man who kept more than 50 snakes in his Detroit-area home pleaded guilty to violating a township ordinance outlawing the possession of venomous reptiles.
Rudolph Hatfield was ordered Tuesday to pay $500 -- as well as court costs and fees the police incurred during the investigation.
One of Hatfield's venomous snakes bit him last week, sending him to Detroit Receiving Hospital. Canton Township police soon learned Hatfield had more than 50 snakes in his home.
Hatfield has removed the venomous snakes and is removing the non-venomous ones.
Canton Man Will Pay Fine After Snake Bite

n/m.

This media frenzy tragedy hit very close to home as I consider Dr. Rudolph Hatfield (Rudy) to be a great herper and close friend. Unfortunately the tabloids have capitalized on this event and due to some innaccuracy, I feel an explanation is warranted.

Rudy was bitten Sunday night while feeding his specimens. Reports published state that he was cleaning his cages. One of many errors published, but nevertheless, this is irrelevant. The specimen was housed in a large Vision. Standing approx 36" back, Rudy slid the glass front open and introduced the first live rat which was bitten immediately. He reached for a second rat to offer in a container at his feet. The combined "fresh scent" and Rudy's movement provoked the Lachesis to investigate quickly biting Rudy on the top of his right hand. This envenomation only involved one fang, but required 31 vials of AV to treat. Once bitten, Rudy secured the animal, got in his car and proceeded to his daughter's home calling her along the way. Along the way, Rudy began to feel faint, and he pulled the car over on the side of the road. He didn't lose control of the car. He didn't have an accident, and he didn't run off the side of the road. After this time paramedics were called and he was taken to the hospital.

Rudy is a law abiding citizen. He purchased his home in Canton, MI in April 2004. This same month Canton MI township passed an ordinance prohibiting the keeping of venomous reptiles. This can be verified online. I was there, and I heard the truth from the officer presiding over this case as well. This is also explains why he acted in good faith in telling hospital staff, "I'm a collector of exotic venomous snakes". He had no idea that he was violating the law. Personally, I do not and will not ever condone the keeping of venomous reptiles illegally in areas where they are prohibited. When the law has been broken a plea to ignorance is no excuse. How many have been ticketed for speeding when you weren't aware you were driving so fast? Rudy doesn't condone keeping venomous reptiles illegally either. Had he been aware he would have chosen to live somewhere else. When he is back on his feet he plans to move as soon as possible and resume his interests in the hobby again.

All of his animals were housed in structurally secure locked cages. Vision, neodesha, and various other commercially manufactured models were used to house his venomous specimens. He also has a nice collection of arboreal boids and arachnids. The gaboon vipers were housed a variety of terraria, but mainly in all glass aquaria models unlike any i had ever seen. The design holds a front display glass door mounted to tracks and secured by display case locks. What I am saying is...they were housed in safe and responsible manner deemed appropriate by venomous hobbyists. No snakes were loose. No snakes have been loose.

As his friend, he contacted me to fly up there and manage his inventory. The entire venomous collection was packaged and shipped back to my facility. Some of the animals are being displayed, while the remaining others will be brokered/sold to assist Rudy in getting back up on his feet.

I certainly do not think less of Rudy because of the civil infraction cited. It was an honest mistake. His severe error was keeping an exotic venomous species without antivenin to treat the bite. Such is the case with most keepers, but it doesn't make it any less right. Stock your own antivenin. Witnessing this event up close was very enlightening for me. You have absolutely NO IDEA how much a snakebite can cost someone. It's worth rethinking ladies and gentlemen.

In spite of everything else that has been described I feel very sorry for all the byproduct "flack" that he has endured. The Detriot Zoo completely trashed his house senselessly searching for loose snakes that they were informed in advance weren't there. "Two HOT SNAKES IN HERE" signed by "-W" was written in permanent sharpei marker on an painted Oak closet door in the snake room by some fool at the detroit zoo. In addition to throwing all of his items about his house the zoo also trashed his snakeroom, damaged some cages, broke a downstairs closet door searching for snakes. I am not going to speculate on the approximate value of his house, but if you look at this pics from the article....to say it's a "pimp crib" is an understatement. The zoos wreckless behavior was unwarranted and should be condemned. The bushmaster that bit him was branded a rabid dog and scheduled to be destroyed. With everything else Rudy was worried about he went through great efforts (and succeeded) to save the offending snake as well as the rest of his collection.

Rudy is experiencing down time right now, but I would like to be among the first to welcome him back to the venomous hobby as soon as he is ready.

Good luck, Rudy!

Sean Palmer

Good post...As far as the Detroit Zoo goes, they are the absolute worse in terms of competent staff. I wish Rudy a quick recovery and am sorry to hear about the loss of his collection.

By the way, I talked to a guy who said he has the bushmaster that bit Rudy, down in Wilmington. Is there any truth to that?

The offending Lachesis is currently being held in quarantine at the Detroit Zoo.

SP

I'm certainly happy to hear that Rudy is doing well and will not be facing any huge legal trouble. When I spoke with him during the process of his acquisition of my taipans, he was very professional and courteous. I'm also extremely glad to hear that none of his snakes were euthanized. I sincerely hope he makes a full recovery both physically and mentally.
-Chance
-----
Chance Duncan
2.2 Retics (1.0 Tiger Het, 1.0 Lavender, 0.1 Dark Lavender, 0.1 Normal Het)
1.1 Olive Pythons
1.1 Ball Pythons (Het Albino)
http://www.rivervalleysnakes.com

>Posted by: hammer at Wed Dec 15 19:23:14 2004 [ Report Abuse ] >[ Email Message ]

>Good post...As far as the Detroit Zoo goes, they are the >absolute worse in terms of competent staff.

It's safe to say that I would strongly disagree with this statement...especially since I work with the reptile folks at the zoo day in and day out and am myself a Detroit Zoo employee.

For those that aren't aware, the Detroit Zoo displays some amazing vision in it's focus and monetary support of the smaller taxa, particularly 'cold blooded' taxa, that are in need of work including the internationally reknowned National Amphibian Conservation Center as well as the upcoming Turtle Conservation Center which is currently in the planning stages. It is also worth noting that for an "incompetent staff", the institution is doing pretty well in that it has never had a venomous snake bite.

Personal opinions aside, I just wanted to take a moment and post a different viewpoint than that which has been expressed so far.

Let's say you are a zoological institution holding hots...an AZA accredited institution. You have managed through great expense, paperwork, and effort to cobble together the antivenin for every hot animal in your collection for which antivenin is available and have moved out animals for which there isn't any or where the antivenin is so difficult to obtain that you don't feel safe holding that species. And you have done this even as zoological institutions across the country have faced monetary crunches like they have never seen before.

Now let's say that someone locally gets bitten by their personal animal. What do you think happens? No matter the time of day or night, all of the zoos in the area holding antivenin (in the L. muta case, this included three different zoos in three different states) proceed to send it to the hospital to be utilized to care for the person who has been bitten. Day or night.

If the 'borrowed' antivenin is utilized, this in turn leaves the responsible donating institution WITHOUT any antivenin to in turn protect it's own staff...pending having to find and order more to replace the utilized stocks. Does this seem right? Leaving a zoo's reptile staff unprotected because a local individual gets bitten? It does not seem right (nor fair) to me.

While I am a strong, strong believer in individual rights when it comes to keeping herps, I am also a strong believer in individual responsibility in the keeping of said herps. With three venomous snake bites in the last three months in the state of Michigan alone (two L. muta locally and one puff adder) and zoos constantly trying to be civic 'friends' to the community by sending out their antivenin at the drop of the pin leaving their staffs unprotected...something has to change. And preferably soon.

Chris Tabaka, DVM

Email me and I'll tell you who, by name, is regarded as the village idiot from the San Diego Zoo to the Toledo Zoo, and all points in between. I have had personal dealings with him also and consider the comments above to be very generous. I appreciate you sticking up for your employer and in your capacity you may be very good at what you do; however, the curator I'm referring to should have his credentials checked because if they are not fraudulent, then someone is going to die if the authorities rely on him for antivenom advice.

Sir,

You are correct on all points. I have no argument with your statements, but since we have this moment to share please inform the reptile staff @ The Detroit Zoo that common sense and decency go alot farther than over dramatized heroics. Who on earth has the initial, "-W" in the reptile department?

Sean Palmer

quite a bit different animal in terms of venom effects on the body!! Hence, the proper serum is Costa Rican Polyvalent.

From what I was told (and anyone else feel free to clear up any details) was that initially, CR Polyvalent wasn't administered (not the zoo's fault, they gave whatever they had) but the victim didn't respond favorable, and hence was in and out of conciousness. Subsequently, Costa Rican Polyvalent was administered and the patient began to improve.

As for the zoo itself, I doubt the issues about their reptile department are an example of the entire zoo. Their curator standing up to the AZA with the better interests of their elephants, is a good case and point! But, the opinions I've gotten over their reptile department, come not from private individuals, but other zookeepers. Maybe it's a personal thing, I don't know, but the fact that some bushmasters have died while in their care, is hard to dispute.
Detoit's elephants

Dr.Tabaka:

Actually many of us do understand you comments on private keepers using precious A/V stocks to treat a bite that was their responsibility to be prepared for. I like'n it to jumping out of an airplane without a Parachute and expecting someone(AZA institutions) to come to your rescue before you hit the ground. WE understand and support your position and are working to establish an A/V bank funded by private keeper, so this exact issue is a thing of the past.

The issue that really gets our "dander up" is the retoric some institutional employees spew during their 15 minutes of fame. Reptiles, especially Venomous ones already have a bad image with the public and don't need someone fanning the flames.

Maybe you can answer why the offending Lachesis was not sent to Cape Fear with the others...Is it being condemed to death for just doing what millions of years of evolution programmed it to do?

I don't wish to dwell on this issue because I have many friends that are zoo keepers and don't act that way. There is always one in every bunch no matter what the group. Zoos and their employees do wonderful things with very little. I just hope that you can help by telling others there are private keepers that DO understand the issues and are working very hard at making them a thing of the past.

Sincerely,

Al Coritz
Member AZA,SHHS
coritz@neavb.org

P.S Contact me off line and I'll send you info about our North Eastern A/V Bank I eluded too.

I don't want to start a debate, but wanted to add that even if you prepare yourself with your personal stock of antivenom, there is a very good chance that the doctor attending you will not use it. Hospitals are reluctant to use a drug they did not procure, especially from a private individual. Many medical institutions will only use antivenom procured by and stocked by zoos. It just adds to the frustration of the whole antivenom debate.

What Matt Harris is doing is fantastic. I wish I could do more to help. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like there're a lot more people banding together, realizing that we need the numbers if we want to preserve our right to own venomous reptiles, as well as other non-grata reps, like crocs, etc. I truly applaud the efforts of Matt and those doing the same thing.

Hammer:

Yes, I understand this and it's not without reason: If you improperly store the A/V it could kill you as well as the snakebite itself.

Another reason for joining the Bank Matt and I are starting. The A/V will be stored at the Hospital that is working with us to establish the bank. They have the experienced physician and staff, not to mention the logistical support to handle the situation perfectly.

Besides, Why not share the cost of A/V procurment with other bank members or would you like to fork it out of your pocket and maybe not have the doctors use it as you stated.

Al Coritz
coritz@neavb.org

Your comments have a lot of credit and I do not actually think that individuals who have commented negatively on zoos have sat down and spent time with the people they are referring to and have accessed the situation with all the variables involved.

However, I am also surprised to see many Zoo employees come on these forums and speak as though they are a representative of a Zoo and speak for the Zoo. Hence their wording often is their personal reflection of experiences, not necessarily the zoo's public statement or policy on the issue. And their wording is basis about their neck and safety and not the safety of the public who has the LEGAL right to own venomous snakes. And if it is illegal, then do hospitals throw out the patients who have committed a crime during their injury? Or does any health worker turn their back or side when anyone is asking for help?

That being said, I have worked in hospitals for over 20 years and often we have had to transfer medication, equipment, staff, and that particular item may have risked or jeopardized the healthcare of a patients that might need the medication or item for that particular institution.

As such, I cannot believe that accredited Zoo's do not have a contingency plan in place when antivenin is dispersed to save the life of a human. And after seeing thousands of healthcare scenarios which went amuck because of the above lack of medicine, equipment, equipment failure, and the rest, it is quite perplexing that anyone can even raise their eyebrow when we are talking about saving another human life? Now almost every hospital experiences these scenarios hundreds of times a year, but when one zoo has to give up a few viles of antivenin, it rocks their world. What is the difference, it is a human life we are talking about and people should be happy they were involved in the recovery of the patient not vice versa? Much less, how many cases have their been when a zoo gave out their antivenin and they needed it for a bite for one of their employees? None, one, five? Cannot be that high to make someone complain. And personally, if an experienced snake handler cannot go to their job and complete their job without ease of an available antivenin, then they should have said that when they were interviewed because I think they would have been passed as a candidate for employment.

Now I can see the inexperienced snake handler being concerned, but there is nothing wrong with putting off feeding for a few days and cleaning a cage for the sake of a human life and not complaining about it. And any institution should have this in place if the snake handler or insurance company will not cover the individual employee if he is bitten in this circumstance. And heck, if a snake has to crap over without care because of a human life, then so be it and deal with the snake later when the life is saved.

Your comments have a lot of credit and I do not think actually that people who have commented very negatively on zoos have sat down and spent time with the people they are referring to and have accessed the situation with all the variables involved.

However, I am also surprised to see many Zoo employees come on these forums and speak as though they are a representative of a Zoo and speak for the Zoo. Hence their wording often is their personal reflection of experiences, not necessarily the zoo's public statement or policy on the issue. And their wording if about their safety and not the safety of the public who has the LEGAL right to own venomous snakes. And if it is illegal, then do hospitals throw out the patients who have committed a crime during their injury? Or does any health worker turn their back or side when anyone is asking for help?

That being said, I have worked in hospitals for 20 years and often we have had to transfer medication, equipment, staff, and the that particular material may have risked or jeopardized the healthcare of a patient that might need the medication or item for that particular institution.

As such, I cannot believe that accredited Zoo's do not have a contingency plan in place when antivenin is dispersed to save the life of another human. And after seeing thousands of healthcare senerios which went a muck because of the above lack of medicine, equipment, equipment failure, and the rest, it is quite perplexing that anyone can even raise from their chair when we are talking about saving another human life. Now hospitals see these senerios hundreds of times a year, but when one zoo has to give up a few viles of antivenen, it rocks their world. What is the difference, it is a human life we are talking about and people should be happy they were involved in the recovery of the patient not vice versa. Much less, how many cases have their been when a zoo gave out their antivenen and they needed it for a bite for one of their employees? None, one, five? Cannot be that high to make someone complain. And personally, if an experienced snake handler cannot go to their job and complete their job without ease, then they should have said that when they were interviewed because I think they would have been passed as a canadate for employment.

Now I can see the inexperienced snake handler being concerned, but there is nothing wrong with putting off feeding for a few days and cleaning a cage for the sake of a human life and not complaining about it. And any institution should have this in place if the snake handler or insurance company will not cover the individual employee if he is bitten in this circumstance. And heck, if a snake has to go without care because of a human life, then so be it and deal with the snake later when the life is saved.

If the number of medical institutions complained about the millions of times their stock ran short of something for the care of their patents, then the list could go to the Mars and back.

I can not speak for other zoo employees who post here, but in my situation I am providing the viewpoint of our zoo. I am the person who imports antivenom for us, I am the one responsible for keeping track of when it needs to be replaced, and I am also the one who most recently went out in the cold at midnight to give our Costa Rican polyvalent to the police who would take it to MI for the bushmaster bite.
You are right in saying that saving a life is the most important thing. We do not hesitate to offer our antivenom if it is needed, nor do we hesitate to send it out. Funny the private individuals who keep the snakes don't value their own life enough to keep their own antivenom. You are also right that a human's life is more important than any animal's, including snakes.
However, from what you wrote in your post you don't seem to understand several issues that zoos face when dealing with situations such as this.
1. OSHA regulations require that zoos have antivenom available to keepers if they are required to work with venomous snakes. Your statement that if they are not skilled enough to handle the snakes without antivenom is misguided. Indeed, I know we would not consider a prospective employee if they indicated they were willing to work without antivenom. I want someone whose primary concern is proper safety, not how good they are. Of course they need to have proper skills, but they should not be so egotistical to think they need no safety net. That is more a recipe for a bite than most anything else.
2. Antivenom can take months to replace. We generally assume at least six months from our initial effort to contact to when we actually get the antivenom. In some cases it has taken over a year. Actually, the last time I bought Costa Rican it took over a year, due to their production schedule and the need for it in Costa Rica. (And I don't think they should send it here before treating their own people.) Thailand has not recontacted me yet and I have been trying to fax an order to them for about 3 months now. It is not a matter of a few days to replace it. While it might be nice to buy enough to treat 10 bites at once, our budget can not handle that and most zoos are operating under reduced funds as it is. Also, usually we are not reimbursed for our cost to get the antivenom. We have been reimbursed once out of about 50 times that we sent out antivenom to private individuals. Jim has been sued twice for not getting the antivenom there quickly enough, both of which were thrown out of court due to the fact that they had no basis. However, the liability still exists each time we send it, and situations like that take time and money from our schedule.
3. People who work with reptiles professionally have varying opinions as to whether or not private individuals should keep snakes. You asked how many bites have occured at zoos that were depleted. We have one very good friend who almost died from a cobra bite that occured at a zoo. The zoo had given their antivenom to a private individual who was flicking his cobra in the nose while drunk. He wanted to see it hood up. Our friend was feeding and caring for the zoo's snake because he didn't want it to die from lack of care, and we had sent 10 vials of our antivenom to the zoo to back them up. When the bite occured, we sent an additional 20 vials up to them, and he ended up using 16 vials total. If we had not been willing to help them he would have died. He also would have had no problem if the drunk had not had a cobra, or if he had had his own antivenom.
4. Lastly, elsewhere there is a commment about how the bushmaster bite needed 30 vials and no private individual can afford that. Of course, maybe you shouldn't have the snake if you can't afford the antivenom. However, we would like to point out that if he had antivenom and it was not delayed he probably would have needed much less. The longer the wait the more antivenom can be needed.
Sorry, but I don't think the zoos asking the private sector to be responsible is a bad idea. Get with the guys setting up the antivenom bank and save your hobby if it is important to you.
Best,
Kristen Wiley
KY Reptile Zoo

Thanks for your information however I think it is way to difficult to have a decent conversation about this topic on a forum.

I meant to say in my first post that people have NOT sat down with zoo employees and that was a typo mistake.

In any case, you provided some good points but I am not sure what you base your viewpoint on as like I said there are a million incidents a year from the lack of medical resources that lead to the risk of other individuals. I would think that the law would be a good start for a basis. I am in Florida where there are laws in place and hot snakes must be kept in locked rooms or locked cages. Regardless of the locked rooms and cages, there is no requirement for antivenin. As there is no requirement for people to own guns to have a supply of their own blood type just in case of an accident. I mean you can debate the situation a million ways, but we can only operate with the governments laws or guidance and use adult common sense. And personally, regardless of the availability of antivenin, if an individual wishes to use their adult brain to decide to keep a hot snake, then that is their personal business as long as it does not risk the public. And I do not think the availability of antivenin has anything to do with a squeeze on this hobby, more so the squeeze is place on our hobby by government officials that have nothing better than to do then to think they were elected to create more laws and justify why they take home a big paycheck each week.

Now personally, I have been involved in the treatment of dozens of copperhead and rattlesnake bites working as a medic many years ago for a hospital. Our perception was that if you stumble into the path on a rare occurrence with a venomous snake and get bitten, then your treated and released and life goes on. The rare circumstance of a cobra or mamba bite is usually associated with a zoo or a private keeper who made a mistake in judgment and was bitten, but again, treatment is delivered and life moved on and the public in general learns from this and hopefully society progresses and people do not point the finger at each other. It seems that there are a billion other public safety issues that politicians can aim their scope of their work, but snakes seem to give them an edge at winning their political goals, and they often do what might be better for their resume for their future instead of serving the public as a whole.

I do understand much about OSHA and the other regulations that require institutions to maintain antivenin. And I do know some zoo employees who have stood firm that no one but zoos should keep hot snakes. But it seemed funny that when they did leave their position at the zoo, they acquired hot snakes themselves. Again, they stayed within the regulations of the law and saw it from another viewpoint when they were outside the gate of the zoo. And what I meant about the handler not being able to work without antivenin was not communicated well. I meant that if indeed it causes strife sufficient enough to publicly object to the lending or rendering antivenin, then perhaps that confidence in what they do might be in question. I say that because if I had some antivenin and had to give it away for 6 months as a life was saved, I would not bark. I would not bark because it is already perceived that anyone who is taken absent from having this extra safety measure should already be given the common sense courtesy that they are without, so adding extra tears to it is not going to help anyone except point a finger at their perceived fear which again, it not good for anyone in the hobby or research field.

And here is another viewpoint. What a person does on their property seems to be their business and the ONLY exception to this seems to be an owner of venomous snakes. Well, if we as citizens permit the government to start telling us what we can and cannot do in our homes, then where does it stop? Next thing you know, they might tell us that we cannot own knifes longer than 4 inches? How many people die or are killed from knifes in the home? A million times more than the rare occasion when some drunk if bitten by the rattlesnake he is holding.

And another viewpoint is that zoos financially compensate private individuals to be placed in a position vulnerable or at risk from a deadly snake bite. As such, although there are many OSHA regulations say perhaps in the construction field, but can you push OSHA regulations on the private individual who wishes to build a house himself and avoid all the safety regulations? Or for that matter, force people to wear helmets who ride motorcycles? They don't anymore in Florida and my tax paying dollars go to state and county hospitals where thousands of people are injured and do not have the personal funds to pay for their care. And maybe zoos should not keep hots because they are financially compensating people to risk their lives and is it for the research or to gather additional customers to visit the zoo? For profit? I do not know. I do not know but a private keeper who does this for a hobby has made a decision not based on compensation to keep deadly snakes and there is quite a difference there. Who is right and who is wrong is up in the air? I just think that anyone over the age of 21 has the ability to decide for themselves and even the law should not be necessary to intervene with permits and the such as this will only lead to more violations of the law, and justify a bigger law enforcement division and eat up all the available public funds that should go elsewhere like taking care of the elderly in this country or the school problems.

And you mentioned a few things about how the availability of antivenin affects your facility, well like I said, hospitals and just about every other business lacks from time to time the materials they need to function at 100 percent, and it is more so a deficiency with a contingency plan and the long time it takes to establish it and short time it take to complain about it. It seems easier to forget the problem ever happened then the months it would take to establish a well written contingency plan.

Well, like I said you cannot have a conversation of this nature on a forum as there are too many issues.

You say numerous times..."it's a human life" in defence of the people who do not stock their own serum?
What about the "human life" at the zoo, lab, research center or local Hospital? That died because of some person that wants the animals without the protocol.( Look at Kristen Wiley's example, Could you imagine what would have happened if there would have been 2 private Cobra bites in the area in a month) (Oh wait! Right now it is 2 Bushmaster Bites in a month)
Wow, I certainly hope no one gets bitten by a bushmaster in the next 6 months to 1 year in the midwest!!!!!!!!

You're telling us you would take your seatbelt out of your car and give it to someone 3 states away that you never knew existed because they have a RIGHT to drive? Now wait? You still need to drive to your work???!
You talk about working in a hospital for 20 years? You don't know the difference between irresponsible Avoidable 'accidents' and responsible 'incidence'
I think you need to look at the situation from Inside the Zoo gates! All debates have two sides. "Your side" " I can't afford it, I don't have time, it happens in other hobbies too"
"Our side", quit endangering our lives for your own purpose.

Society is made of a bunch of dummies, but regulation restricts the dummies "RIGHT" and ABILITY to harm others!
It is insane for the anti serum keepers to say "It's my RIGHT!" to endanger your lives to save $500.00
I ask you...."Where does my right to live and work in a safe and responsible manner end and YOUR right to risk MY life begins?
Give that some thought!
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

Terry, I will email you on the issue or get your number and call you. I think you lumped me in with many other people that have frustrated you through the years but I have spoken in detail to people who you and I know in common and I can assure you that my views are not what you thought them to be.

Fran,
It is apparent that you will probably never understand our view, but in the hope that someone else is reading this I will respond anyway.
First, you say that you would not 'bark' if you had to give up your antivenom for someone else. I highly doubt you would follow that after two or three times of giving your antivenom away. It is a real pain in the butt to go through all the hassles involved. Again, I do not say we shouldn't save someone's life, but why can't they save their own? It's not as if they couldn't get antivenom, it's that they simply are too lazy or cheap to do so. Yet the zoo community is expected to step up every time and endanger the lives of their keepers just so someone can keep a pet. Accidents are accidents because they were unforseen events, and they can happen to anyone. 'Adults' are supposed to realize that and take reasonable precautions to prevent them- ie have the contingency plans you claim we lack. However, it seems to me we are the ones with the contingency plans and the private individuals are the ones without them. So why are you criticizing me and the zoo community for being the ones who are prepared? If the private individuals were prepared with their own plans and antivenom, we would not be having this conversation at all.
Maybe you think our contingency should be to have enough antivenom to treat 10 bites, or more, not just to treat the bites that might occur at our own facility. Why should we be responsible for everyone else? At our zoo, we are providing venoms from snakes and Heloderms for research....and that research may save many more lives than the ones saved by our antivenom. Why should a possible cure for cancer, alzheimer's, AIDS, etc wait an extra six months to a year just so someone can keep pet cobras or mambas? (I am not exagerating, those are all legit research projects our venom is used in.) We are trying to do something that can address larger issues than private ownership of snakes, yet our efforts can be affected by those private individuals who refuse to take responsibility for thier own lives.
When I started working here I did not see this as a large problem. I also thought that there were way more important and large issues in society and that this was not that big a deal. But after working here for six years, I am now convinced that this is an issue that can affect my livlihood and also affect important research. It may not seem like that big of a problem to you, but it does affect us in a big way. How would you feel if your hospital suddenly had to give up its security staff? You mention equipment shortages, but this is not the same thing. It's taking away something I need to do my job safely, not something I can borrow from someone else, or that would be convenient to have. Why don't I have the right to be safe in my job? Because someone else wants a pet? Sorry, I don't see it that way.
Kristen Wiley
Kentucky Reptile Zoo

The most important thing I said in that post was that you cannot have a decent discussion of this topic on a forum and your views of what I said are not accurate. I think they may be based on some stuff or the overall opinion given by many other people, but regardless, maybe someday we can sit down and have a conversation on the subject as there are way too many issues and views to complete a detailed analysis of the issue. If your ever in south Florida, give me an email and I will show you a collection that rivals most zoos and we can discuss it further. And yep, this private keeper has been contacted by zoos to maintain their supply of venomous reptiles. Wow, a zoo asking a private individual for something and then condemning the private individual later for having the supply of snake. Wow, we can talk about it later. Thanks and I am sure you are a fine person and do a good job and I do not mean to be a pain in the butt.

I'm all for keeping a stock of your own antivenim but 31 vials? It's hard to predict the need for that much so when it's needed it has to come from somewhere.

Hi, great post Sean. So much for "truth in reporting", from the news media, I guess sensationalized news sells better. I was very disappointed to see he was going to be fined on top of his whole ordeal. This is definitely a case of "the punishment is in the crime", with the bite pain, medical bills, etc. The municipality definitely did not have to cite him, they have discretion, and I personally believe it was used poorly here, given the surrounding circumstances and the cooperation he provided.

I think it's important to realize that everytime we read a news release on a bite it's important to realize that the article doesn't necessarily contain the truth.

my best wishes and prayers go out to Rudy,

Steve

Mr. Himes,

It's been a long time. How have you been? It's good to see you. Thank you for the condolences and I will pass them on Rudy.

You are correct. The civil infraction was not needed. During the whole ordeal Rudy was compliant and eager to work with them. In addition to the citation issued, Rudy was unfairly ordered to pay restitution to the Canton PD, and FD for the trauma they endured responding to this call. Pa-LEEEEZ! What are tax dollars for? Is this due process or a shake down?

Sean P.

Great Post Sean!!

I wish Rudy a swift & complete recovery.

Every time is see a post by W von Papineäu (Great Job!) I always read the origional article to search for inaccuracies and exagerations, then I make it a point to email the writer and NICELY, and mean nicely to suggest they check with out experts other than the ones they used for the article. I also suggest a follow up story to address untruths previously published. WE have a voice, I suggest we start using it! That's the only way to combat this sort of bad press.

Sean, as you may know Matt Harris & I are starting an A/V Bank here is the NE area. The lack of keeper owned A/V is really hurting us badly because it gives Zoo's a HUGE voice when this sort of unfortunate accident occurs. Now, that's not to say the Zoo's are not correct in the concern of the lack of A/V kept by private keepers, it is the way that they are using the issue.

In a long conversation with an SHHS collegue yesterday we thought that once we get this bank operational and have a good framework that we can setup other regional banks up too. One in TX was his suggestion, I concur.

For now, any support you can give by suggesting to your NE customers that they contact us for info on the NEAVB would be of great help. This is also a good idea for other dealers to do too.

Just email info@neavb.org and I will send out information.

Best,

Al Coritz,
coritz@neavb.org

I have written you guys and filled out the forms. What you guys are doing is great. You have my full support and I hope this begins a much broader movement to help organize and protect those that keep hots. The possibilities are endless... Thanks.

...that keep voicing their opinions AND..I have been told by yet another zookeeper, who provided BUSHMASTERS to said zoos, that they didn't even keep them alive through the quarantine period!! This is the same zoo that seems to be very vocal in be-rating the private keeper. This seems to be a result of the personal feelings of the curator, IT SHOULD NOT REFLECT THE ATTITUDE OF ALL ZOOS. Many of them are quite supportive of private keepers. Obviously, their "official" stance will always be that individuals shouldn't keep hots in their homes, but thats due to AZA's policies, more so than the personal opinions of zoo curators.

Fortunately, we still have time to set up the A/V Bank, before its too late for PA, Ohio, Michigan, and the rest. And with support and wake up calls from individuals like Jim Harrison and Terry Phillip, we're gonna get it done!

For the record, 2 bushmasters did go to Cape Fear, but not the offending snake that bit Rudy. Why that snake could not go as well, defies any logic, but thats what happened.

Matt
www.matabuey.com

I have a friend who works for Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit who called the curator of "a" zoo and asked which antivenom should be used. I had asked the same curator a few months prior. We both got the same answer. The snakes listed varied, and for the moment, the particular snakes aren't important. What is important is that curator said, very confidently, that Crofab could be used for all viper bites and most cobra bies. He wasn't misled into thinking we were asking about any North American rattlesnakes. He was given a list which included ahterises, Trims, Trops and various elapids and a host of others. He still was firm that Crofab would cure probably all these bites....Again, I got this first hand as did the hospital employee, who told him they were from the hospital.

.

Yea, and I am not clear on their opinion. I believe the private keeper came before the zoo, so the zoos get their stuff from private keepers and then obtain their contacts for importation, and then try to oust and distinguish themselves from the private keeper based on their risk associated with the availability of antivenin? I don't know but if that is it, then something is a bit messed up here?

I mean private keepers do not do it for profit like a zoo, more so, the serious keeper does it for research and personal insight to pass on to another generation of keepers and share that valuable information on the species with other keepers. We are not talking about the incidental bozo who buys one king cobra and gets bitten, there are thousands more private keepers in the world then zoos.

The ambitious reporters in pursuit of the "scoop" have little regard for feelings of those involved. Their dramatic, sensationalistic, interest were fulfilled at Rudy's expense. Period. This is just poor reporting and I feel a retraction is in order.

I have heard "chatter" that this project was underway. It's a good idea, and I am in full support of it. Please e-mail me your complete information to spzoo@sbcglobal.net. I feel the preservation of Venomous Herpetoculture will be at the core of the antivenin issue alone. It is necessary for all things to evolve, and our hobby must change now. We cannot wait to rally support for a group effort, but instead take the initiative ourselves to lead. It's about mutual benefit and welfare. This is what herpetoculture is about, and this is what you and Matt have done. Good job.

I too, share your interests. This announcement is premature, but probably appropriate. Efforts are already underway to establish and antivenin bank here in South Texas for venomous herpetoculture. Hopefully within 120 days the bank will be ready to offer service to hobbyists and zoos alike. I am funding the operation entirely myself. The service date of this nonprofit institution is expected 5/1/05. The project is still in its developmental stages. The bank will be operated under a different methodology than the NE bank, but catering to the same purpose. Mutual benefit and welfare. Preservation of the hobby. Contracts are being reviewed by attornies, and the bank will invoice the hospitals for serums delivered. This will insure that serum stores are promptly tendered, rotated, and reimbursed for use. May God help us, I do not want anyone bitten. Given the large venomous community here in Texas its a worthy consideration as it will without a doubt save someone's life.

Cheers,

Sean P.

I've often felt, that in some instances, a single entity operating a bank, could probably do so, more efficiently than having it set up otherwise.

Someone did inform me of this plan via the Yahoo venom list-serve, and asked that we keep them up to date.

You can email me privately if need be, but I simply acknowledged that we'd keep him abreast of our progress.

Eventually at some point, we will exchange info on our serum stock, etc. simply so that all a/v banks are aware of what the other has in case the need arises for additional stocks of serum.

Matt