Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Have a great day!

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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

Awesome Gus! I love that look - long, connected, red saddles, lots of speckling and that fire-engine red tail! Great looking Colombian. Billy

>>Have a great day!
>>
>>
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>>Gus
>>A. Rentfro
>>RioBravoReptiles.com
>>www.riobravoreptiles.com
>>
>>"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

Gus, are these Colombian BCC?
Burkes produced some this year, but I am looking in vain to find another. I figured it would be a shot to see if you had them, as you breed so many locals.

Thanks,
Christopher

.. a lot of my Colombian boas will key out as BCC or very close. I know that is also true of many litters of classic-looking Colombian boa, especially if some effort had been made to keep them separate from the Central American projects...

Mine came from Colombia over ten years ago, when a lot of the so-called Colombia true redtails or BCC were brought in, and they were picked for that look. But I've seen two sets of Colombian BCC hand carried from the mountains of Eastern Colombia, very nice snakes with a larger display of the REDTAIL looks and no matter what the scale-counts suggest these nice Boa are not Colombian BCC (in my opinion).

Hope that helps..
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

Thanks, I was trying to get more info.
I have not seen the ones Burke Reptiles has produced in person, however I have bought other animals from them and I believe they are well represented. I know that Jeff Ronne talks about the old line of boas that are BCC. As far as I am concerned The Colombians have been crossed to much takeing away their natural beauty with mutt morphs, I am not saying that the morphs are not nice, but for instance with the Salmons and Hypos, they have some central blood.
Scale counts, good records, and accurate documentation are necessary with boas to properly site them. However, this is sadly not the case. Congrats to the work you have done.

Personally I have not yet produced Boas, although I have a nice collection ready to go when I am in college. Morphs, intergrades, and pure local. I strongly believe in micro chipping and doing everything I can to properly represent any babies I will sell, and so that they will never be mis repressented.
If it is an Intergrade say so, don't say it is a new morph, if it is pure, keep it that way!

Thanks,
Christopher

I do not remember where I read it, but Colombian Boas were not included in classification of either Imperator or Constrictor. That is, when the two subspecies were defined, Colombia was not listed as a range of either.

Emphasis to the importance at hand to identify these animals as accurately as possible.

Hi Gus,

I am a little bit confused by your last paragraph. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that regardless of where the boas were collected, what they look like and what the scale counts are, they are not Colombian BCC?

If a scale count doesn't distinguish a BCC from a BCI, what does? You seem to be saying that the only bases that we have ever used to determine subspecies in boas are all to be thrown out when it comes to Colombians? If we're to ignore scale counts, collection data and appearance, what are you basing this opinion on?

I don't mean this to start a whole big debate, especially since I'm not going to be able to check back too often because of my finals, but I just didn't understand your reasoning at all, and wanted to clarify.

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Amanda Burke
Email
Burke Reptiles Website

Amanda,

Since you want to know.... I'm saying these nice boas do not meet my expectations of, or experiences with the BCC, which go beyond scale counts.. Certainly scale counts are the foundation of taxonomy in the Boa and all squamates.. yet if we saw a boa with the scale counts of an Amarali that had all the overt characteristics of a Costa Rica snake we would have to come to the conclusion that the scale counts do not tell the whole story. And that's the kind of thing we have with the so-called Colombian BCC. As I mentioned in an earlier reply, I've seen Boa from known localities in Colombia with the scale-counts and looks of a BCC redtail.. these nice snakes aren't it.

Whe we use BCC in the hobby as a descriptive term it brings to mind a whole package of traits, some good, some not-so-good, paired with 'Colombian Boa' it might represent the ideal for someone wanting a beautiful, sturdy captive snake, bringing a higher price too. Yet these boas, scale counts or no, will not be as colorful, contrasted or beautiful as a nice Peru, Suriname or Brazil BCC as adults. Plus as I mentioned also, more Colombian Boa would key out as BCC than one would imagine, even those without the more bold, clean looks of these.

I have been told since posting this image (there is yet another up top ) that some (including perhaps yourself) are marketing animals similar to these as Colombian BCC.. and I'm assuming your inquiry here is because of that? ...good for you! You'll have to make your own case for what your animals are. I'm not after your interpretation.. but I hope this explains mine.

Regards,

Gus

There is a distinct geographic barrier between the Colombian boas, divideing them into the two subspecific regions. The Andes Mountains which run through Colombia. On you site you even acknowledge that there are Colombian BCC from this eastern part of the country. The fact that animals from the eastern part do not interbreed with the western animals, due to the natural barrier should signify the seperation of geographically deliniated subspecies.
These animals when records prove where they were found, if then kept in pure lines would yeild Colombian BCC for captive collections. Besides all this, a local specific snake from Venezuela (which we agree is BCC) isn't going to stop when it reaches the Colombian border. As can be noticed when looking at some of the Venezuelans and Eastern Colombians, they can be similar in appearance.
In addition to this note, some of the Peruvian Boas (BCC), look very much like their Colombian neighbors. Some haveing the rust, orange tails. I know color is not a defineing feature here between BCC and BCI, but it should be aknowledged.
Dennis Sargent and Lloyd Lemke brought Eastern Colombian BCC into the country, and current lineages are off of these parental stock animals. Very few of the BCC have been kept pure however, as most where bought and bred into morphs or crossed because they looked nice. A very large and common occurance in hertoculture, most definately with in the Boa Constrictor species group. Take for example Hog Island boas, most have some crossed blood in them, except for you, Vin Russo, and Paul Mitchell, I know of no verified pure lines produced consistanly without any other crossed blood.

If someone has a book with the taxonomical definitions of Boa constrictor constrictor and imperator subspecies please post the defineing traits, and the ranges of the afforementioned animals.

... You wrote.

"There is a distinct geographic barrier between the Colombian boas, divideing them into the two subspecific regions. The Andes Mountains which run through Colombia" and some more.

Then go on to point out that some Boa in Peru and Venezuela, to the east of Colombia across the Andes, exhibit imperator traits. That's the story, in mountainous eastern Colombia there is a large variation in Boa and many are beautiful examples of common Colombian boas and some are BCC with all the bells and whistles, there is no distinct dividing line. And to me, as I tried to explain above, average scale counts do not tell the whole truth.

I'm happy you are reading my website, but I'm going to have to work on it if a smart guy like you can read it and not get the information I'm trying to impart.

If you would like to continue this discussion, great! E-maiil me.

Thanks!!
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

I am simply trying to give facts, as best I can in order to deliver accurate information, nothing more.

Keep up the good work, few care as much about their boas as you do, you see the meening to keep things pure and represented to the best of anyones ability.
Have a good night! and I wish you well.

Chris

My inquiry was just that...an inquiry into your reasoning as to why an animal with a BCC scale count, BCC characteristics and collection data is not a BCC. It seemed to be ignoring scientific data in favor of subjective opinion. But, then again, you aren't after my interpretation! lol

On a side note, it did seem as though you were referring in some way to the animals we produced this year, since the post you were responding to mentioned them specifically. However, contrary to your suggestion, my inquiry had nothing to do with "making a case for" or marketing my animals...all of those babies (and their parents) have long since been sold or given to friends, and we represented them as what they were; nothing more, nothing less.

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Amanda Burke
Email
Burke Reptiles Website

.. I don't really care.. here's a photo for you. Have a great day!
.

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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

np
Kenneth
omahasnakes@yahoo.com