Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is a link to one study and from it links to many others by companies and individual.. it also gives some explainations as why just using D3 is not recommended.

This study was done by David Krughoff of MyGreenIguana.com and a well respected person in the study of herpetology, he also welcomes emails for any questions you have and responds to them. This puts into understandable terms and resulting blood studies with bone density studies why reptiles need UVB. I also want to state that from our own blood panels and bone density test we have had almost identical results with bearded dragons to his in iguanas.

While on this link, please also look at the link of "An answer to,How much UVB should I provide?"
UVB Study

Thanks Cheris for posting this. I think all reptiles that require sun should get both Uvb lights and Calcium with vit. D3. Your better off giving a good balance diet and uvb lights then just a balanced diet and calcium and vit d3. Just my opinion. I personally give all three and don't slack on any. Thanks Cheri.
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Mattman, If you really believe that, then why not test your theory on you first clutch. Try raising half with plain old flourecsent bulbs and a calcium w/ d3 supp., and raise the other half with a UVB buld and a calcium supp. without d3. Then come back on the forum and tell us all which is more important, dietary d3 or that produced from a UVB bulb.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

In reading the previous posts about UVB/D3, there were comments on how breeders have raised thousands of clutches w/o UVB.
They raise them to what age? six weeks tops?
Have these breeders had bone density tests done their adults?
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TheClassyLizard

The largest breeder I speak of is listed in the link. Why don't you ask them these questions yourself? Do you really need to do bone desity tests on beadies that have been raised this way and held back for breeding purposes? Do you really need to do bone density tests on Dragons that have been maintained and breeding for years without any UV lighting and showing no signs whatsoever of MBD? Listen,we can argue this until were all blue in the face, it won't change what I know to be the truth from years of of raising dragons under these conditions, and by regularly conversing with breeders that have the same husbandry practices. I will still suggest my way of raising dragons to anyone that sks on this forum. They can only benefit from other points of view.
Dachiu's

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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

I do not necessarily have an opinion on which way is right or wrong and I may do a study of my own in the next couple years. But I do have a point to make. Human (female) Model's if you look at them internally are often extremely unhealthy. Most often they have brittle bones from lack of calcium. The point is, we look at them and think they look relatively healthy. Now, if we can't discern unhealthy from healthy in humans how can we possibly think we can accurately judge healthy from unhealthy in bearded dragons. Sure, we can notice huge problems such as large parasite loads, URI and MBD but I think the vast majority of the things that show a dragons true health allude us. For that reason I think bone density tests should be done. I know that it is possible to raise long lived, fairly healthy dragons without UVB but it is also possible to raise a human to an old age (much older than our average life-span pre-modern science/medicine) eating nothing but McDonalds. Just as it has proved possible to raise a humans life-span and general well being using many small, specialized steps in diet, lifestyle and medicine, we should be able to do this in Bearded Dragons. But in order to advance our knowledge of BD husbandry we can't stop asking questions just because our animals are “healthy enough.” I believe it is fairly common knowledge that it is possible to raise a "healthy" dragon with or without UVB using the right supplements. This is not a question of healthy vs. unhealthy. This is a question of which one is the MOST healthy. A question I for one would like to find the answer to.

Peter

I am sure with UVB is most healthy. Hence I provide all my dragons with UVB producing lights.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Well actually, yes, I would like solid medical proof.

A human can have osteoperosis for years and never break a bone and never know they have it (unless tested), they can die with the disease and show no symptoms.
I'm sure a beardie can have weakend bones, yet not show actual signs of MBD. W/O medical proof, How do we know that just supplimenting doesn't keep their bones at a point that barely prevents MBD ? As with the report Cheri posted, the bones of the iguana from the wild were stated to be much more solid and dense then that of a captive born.
So yes, I would like to see a bone density test comparing UVB raised dragons and suppliment only dragons.
Raising a million beardies would not be proof enough w/o "medical" proof.
For once, I'm not arguing with you, which I'm sure is much to your dismay *grin*.
I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that because some big breeders do not use UVB and raise what seem to be healthy dragons, is it really the best thing to do? Are their bones really as strong and healthy as they could be?
Without medical proof, we just don't know that answer and ends up being heresay.
IMO, I don't care how big a breeder is or how long they have been raising dragons. That really means very little if infact a bone density test would show something like solid, but thinner bones. .
If tests showed equal bone density in their dragons then great!
We can quit forking over money for UVB lights...
But yes...I'm sure I'm not alone in needing definate medical proof to support the issue. I'm from the "Show Me" state.
(Bill Clinton was a big shot too : ) )
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TheClassyLizard

I'm going to raise ALL of my babies to the BEST of my abillity. That means offering EEVERY one the same thing that has worked for all my dragons. YOU want to do HALFA$$ED experememnts do it with your own. NO thanks Buddy, won't raise any of my offspring half a$$es you want that then buy from your buddy breeders who do it this way, Thanks just my humble opinion.
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I don't need to buy from my buddy breeder's (though I do) to know that dragons raised under these conditions are just as healthy as ones raised under UV. I have been doing this myself for most of 11 years, I know the results first hand. I was gust suggesting a way that you can find ut first hand which of the two (dietary d3 or that formed from UV exposure) is more important in raising a healthy dragon. Buy following what I suggested you would find out which of the two is an optional addition and not necessary to raising dragons. I really didn't think you would anyway. By the way, when you go to that breeder on Mon. why don't you tell them they are doing things half assed just before you purchase that dragon that was raised using no UV lighting at all. Sounds kind of hypocritical to me.

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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

I will purchase a baby dragon from them no problem. Will I agree that it is the best for them. No. Do I think if I raise this baby under my conditions here at my place that they will turn out any worse then mine as adults, I can't say for sure, but I hope not for my sake. Most likely they'll turn out better since being put under mercury vapors and givin proper supplements, But it has been stated by an important person who studies beardeds and their sicknesses that there is a long term effect to some of the dragons being raised this way. Do I beleive him/her yes whithout a doubt. Will I condem you, and others with your opinion not at all. Seems like you want me to condone you and your ways, but I don't sorry, and won't. All reptiles no matter what, need natural sunlight for some reason or anther. Even if it's just for mental health.. Murders in prisons even get let out for some sun light weekly. Why? To keep them from going nutts...
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Can we drop this now? I've been coming here the past two days seems like just to get another argument from you. We both obviosly feel strong about both of our opinions. You won't agree with me no matter what, and I won't agree with you. I offer my babies both uvb and supplements, you just offer supplement, and don't think uvb is needed. I understand your opinion fully. I'm just tired of dragging this out for no other reason then to hear ourselves talk. You know respected breeders that do it your way, and I know ones that do it my way. Should we not buy from each others sources seems childish if you ask me. You can buy from the breeders I know who offer uvb, and you can decside to stop providing the uvb. I can buy from your sources and provide mine with the extra uvb. Let's just get back to what this forum is for and that is helping others. Giving them the advise that has helped us raise our dragons strong, and healthy. I'm done with this now.
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Ok yeah, I can drop it. But I am sure the next time I suggest to someone on the forum that UV is not needed and is an optional purches, that you and others will have something to say. I'll let it go for now.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Come on, thats just a bit wrong right there.....of course others will have something to say. Just as you want to let people know what you think, everyone else has the right to do the same. So dont get mad if people want to suggest that they do use something that you are opposed to. I just have one question though for you........Do you think that uvb exposure CAN be beneficial to a bearded dragon's overall health?

Chris,
I have no problem with others stating there point of view. I have a problem with others attacking mine, and suggesting that my husbandry practices are negligant. To answer your question, no I don't think UV lighting benefits a dragons health any more than a plain flourescent. In my experience, there is no difference in growth rates, coloration, appetite or overall activity level. I've raised and maintained and bred 95% of my dragons without UV lighting since 92' when I purchased my first dragon. The breeder (a fellow Jerseyan) I bought him from never used UV lighting at all. At the time he was probably one of the largest dragon breeders in the state.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Ok I really dont want to get into the debate here, but specifically uvb exposure I was asking about. Ok, lets see if we agree on this. In the wild uvb is what would convert into d3 and allow reptiles to process calcium right? Ok, now just from reading over time, and having read that uvb exposure is a far superior way of them getting the d3, and also allowing them to regulate the amount of d3 they get themselves, how could it not be beneficial to them? Im not saying a uvb bulb will compare to natural light, everyone knows it cant, but isnt there just a little bit of you that is saying ok....yes UVB exposure can be beneficial? LOL.....come on........you have to say yes.

I don't want to argue either. The only UV bulbs I have ever used were Reptisun 5.0. Your close about d3, UVB causes a compound to convert to d3 which aids in calciun absorption. It does not matter if you get the d3 through dietary means or from UV lighting. By the way, beardies do also get dietary d3 in there "wild" diet. All I'm saying is that in my experience there is no difference in the dragons raised either way. So from my point of view, I don't see any need to purchase the bulbs, but that's just me. I will also continue to express this point of view on the forum. I'm not trying to state this in an argumentive way, so I hope you don't feel that way. So to answer your last question to me, the only way I see a UVB bulb as being beneficial is if the keeper is not providing the proper supplementation to their dragon (which I fell is much more important). Otherwise, my answer is no, I don't think there is any benefit to using a UV bulb over raising them using a good supplementation schedule.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

I think even debating about this has no real meaning. If you are saying that it could be good if supplementing is not used, than why would the bulb be no different than any normal fluorescent? If you mean what you just said, there has to be something to the dang lights. So do you think uvb exposure can benefit a dragon...not talking supplements or diets........just do you think uvb lighting can be beneficial? If you meant what you said about them being good if no supplements are used, than you would have to say yes.......but Im still asking......again.

Disregard post above..........and disregard question. Dont want to seem to be arguing and would rather just let it be, lol. Have a good night ..............Chris

I meant it as it is better than nothing, and it MIGHT help stall the onset of MBD. BUT, if you read the dach's post above...
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Ok, here's a question for you... if you don't provide UV lamps, do you keep your dragons in big dark rooms and never allow them outside in the sun too?
The sun... the TRUE UVB source.

Fact is when someone comes on the forum and says "do dragons really NEED UVB?" even if you don't use it personally, TELL THEM YES. Because anyone who needs to ask probably isn't a pro at balancing diets or animal husbandry. They need everything possible going for them.

The person I answered that started this whole mess was a newbie. I told him the basics. Diet,calcium with d3, vitamins, and uvb. This guy started an argument infront of a newbie that uvb is not needed. I don't get it either. Uvb surely will not kill the dragon, but a bad diet even supplimented with calcium and d3 will. I personally go with what is working for the majority, and will keep on giving the advise that I got when I started with reptiles. Seems to be working great for me, not to mention the majority of the users of this forum. Glad atleast some people realized my point. Thanks
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think there are a few things newbies need to understand that are more important than UVB. Namely they need the proper heat and ranges and the right diet. Wrong diet worse than no uvb. Wrong temps worse than no uvb.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Mattman,
Are you blatantly ignoring Vicki and Rob's post. My husbandry is practically the same as theirs. My lighting is exactly the same. Their post is on this forum for all to read including newbies. Why do you continue to single me out?
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

he is doing and can read for themselves

Thera,
try reading this post from above with an open mind, then rethink what you just wrote to me. I'm no the only one with the practice of not using UV bulbs so don't just attack me. Next time someone asks if UV bulbs are necessary, I will say NO, absolutely not.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

pointing out that we beleive your closed end statements are poor advice at best and lacking much additional information that will most likely harm their animal... and adding the URL's they can read themselves

Just like people used to just say feed your iguana monkey chow it is good for them. Some people out there still believe this. I think it is much more important to have the right temperatures and diet with supplementation to keep a dragon healthy. This is a continution of an earlier argument. Most people avoid this issue, there are what seems like 2 of us that say dragons do not need UVB and two that do. but turns out as the dachius pointed out that it is published that avid herpetologist believe their is no benefit. Just my 2 cents, if something is not true, like the absolute need for uvb, why spread misinformation?
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

would you please copy and paste that statement about no benefit, I and someone else real interested in this quote can not seem to locate it

I give my animals both calcium with vit D3, and provide powersun bulbs. For me to do an experiment on half my hatchlings would be to raise half my clutch half assed since I have perfectly healthy strong animals the way I do it. I don't agree with any testing on animals that will end up in an unhealthy animal. Just my opinion. Not saying that all people with differant opinions and ways are half assed. Just effecting half my clutch for me to prove your point is just a really stupid idea. You want to prove me wrong you run the experiment. I got nothing wrong with you doing things your way, and my healthy animals brought up my way won't sway you either. I plainly think uvb is beneficial to my dragons period thats it.
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Matt,
I was never trying to prove you wrong. I just wanted to express my opinion that UVB lighting is optional and the real focus for a newbie should be on good sound supplementing, that's all. I don't want to debate whether this is true or not. I just want to state my opinion and either have it respected or ignored. I had thought that the original post said something about UVB lighting, but I was mistaken. I had not even read your posts at the time I responded. If you read the email I sent you, you would know that. If you want to continue to be beligerant, reply to my email, and let's not waste anymore space on the forum. You could also go to the White Plains July 20th show and swing by my table.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

God I apoligize for that. you mean this whole thing could have ended way up there.lol. You sent all those e-mails to my computer at the reptile rescue I helped out at years ago.lol If you feel the need it's vangogh79@aol.com. I do respect your opinion, I hope you also respect mine. Please if it's possible resend the earlier e-mails. And yes I agree if further discussion is needed we will do it that way.
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Very interesting articles. Certainly clarifies how UVB works and it's effect on reptiles. Deffinitely will get back to bringing my bearded dragon out into natural sunlight more often, especially till I get his new cage all set up sometime next week. Now I have to order another UVB bulb to make sure he is getting all he needs

Quoting Mr. Krughoff

"You raise an excellent point though about vitamin D2 or D3 in the diet, that certainly needs to be considered with each specie. I have a friend who just finished a study on Bearded Dragons. They were deprived of all UVB after hatching and fed Rep-Cal bearded Dragon food, exclusively. They have normal 25 hydroxy vit D levels and good bone density."

There you go. I have read his site many of times. I bought his books and read them many of times. Just thought you would enjoy this in writing from someone you say "David Krughoff of MyGreenIguana.com and a well respected person in the study of herpetology" So seems like this conflicts with what you were saying. The study you reference was done on igs a totally different species of lizard with far different needs. Igs are much more prone to MBD than dragons or so I believe. Also another interesting quote from Mr. Krughoff's site

"Anna's basic care manual is an attempt at helping a broad range of readers attain success. It is my experience and the experience of Dr. Wentz -- that a light dusting of Rep-Cal with D3 does not cause problems even in animals that get regular natural sunlight. When green iguanas DO NOT get sunlight or skillful exposure to UVB emitting lamps, Rep-Cal is the difference between life and death. Hence the recommendation in Anna's book."

"Photo biologists agree that D3 production is self limiting. Otherwise we would have a lot of dead prairie farmers, road construction workers and wild green iguanas!"

and finally

"We have never seen an overdose occur when this routine is followed. High blood levels of 25 hydroxy D3 have not developed, even when these small amounts are administered to green iguanas that enjoy several hours of natural sunlight each day."

But guess I am probably still crazy to think that a dragon can get by without UVB.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I am not saying go out and abonding all your UVB bulbs, they are benefical to your dragons health just not absolutely neccesary. I am not telling to breed your dragons whenever. I am not saying you can not overdose your dragons on Vitamin D3 you can if you try, you can also overdose them on calcium, don't make them eat 10000000000000 mg of it a day, not a good idea. I am sure Mr. Krughoff and his "top secret" research friend do not want you to abandon your UVB bulbs. They have just shown that without them your dragon will not instantly die. Take my post for what it is worth, if you want to say I am inferring something read my post 2 or 3 more times to make sure you know what it is saying before you twist my words around to make me look like a no nothing newbie that is just throwing around advise without having any experience, or having done no to little research. Oh sorry for that little attitude I am still a little PO'd about this forum, I think I will go back to just reading it for awhile. Just had to add my 2 cents when someone references a site that if read fully disagrees with that persons post. You must read a whole article carefully before siting it, assuming it agrees with your point can lead you somewhere just like assuming things in general. But hey here I go rocking the boat again breaking from the black and white, bad me, I am now off to my room to do 100000000000 hail mary's and to beg for forgiveness.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

guru Off to bed it is too late for this garbage and I still got alot of hail marys to do before it is time for me to sleep.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I linked too?

But then.. I give people the URLS to read the report themselves, not half statements taken out of contents, ignoring the full ones or mythical studies that don't exist or disappear from the web acknowledged as flawed and are quoted for months afterwards

Not a single Vet that I know who rasies bearded dragons or other exotic lizards who's natural habitat is in sunny areas are not using UBV and telling their clietns or patients owners not to

Can you provide vets or herpetologist that has researched the effects and can say with 100% certainty he's correct in 100% of the possible husbandry situations we encounter that not using UVB is recommeneded and endorsed by them?

And I don't mean breeders that don't bother to put babies under them due to the cost since they are not keeping them and its no loss to them later on

Ok this quote

"You raise an excellent point though about vitamin D2 or D3 in the diet, that certainly needs to be considered with each specie. I have a friend who just finished a study on Bearded Dragons. They were deprived of all UVB after hatching and fed Rep-Cal bearded Dragon food, exclusively. They have normal 25 hydroxy vit D levels and good bone density."

is at the very end way down on the link "How much UVB should I supply?" It is still there on my cpu at home and at work so I don't think it is a cache issue.

"Anna's basic care manual is an attempt at helping a broad range of readers attain success. It is my experience and the experience of Dr. Wentz -- that a light dusting of Rep-Cal with D3 does not cause problems even in animals that get regular natural sunlight. When green iguanas DO NOT get sunlight or skillful exposure to UVB emitting lamps, Rep-Cal is the difference between life and death. Hence the recommendation in Anna's book."

This one is from the link on vitamin supplementation

"Photo biologists agree that D3 production is self limiting. Otherwise we would have a lot of dead prairie farmers, road construction workers and wild green iguanas!"

This one is again from vitamin supplementation page

"We have never seen an overdose occur when this routine is followed. High blood levels of 25 hydroxy D3 have not developed, even when these small amounts are administered to green iguanas that enjoy several hours of natural sunlight each day."

And finally this one is also from the vitamin supplementation page
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I could ask you the same thing. Can you provide someone that can say with 100% certainty that a dragon can't survive and thrive without exposure to UVB radiation? You probably can't can you? If you do the person doesn't understand research, because nothing is with 100% certainty and you don't make remarks like that unless you have done the research. If it had been proving then it would be published. It is not published either way. I read the whole link you supplied. It does not say that supplementation alone isn't good enough. It says that their is a risk of too much or too little vitamin D3 and calcium. It also says that D3 will self regulate itself if it is produced naturally. The other stuff is pieces of other articles that people can read if they want. The other article you mentioned is the how much uvb should i provide. No where in that study is it said that uvb is necesary. Just that when provided a high calcium diet and provided with 10uw/cm/cm that an iguana will have a blood serum level of 25 Hydroxy vit. D when compared with wild iguanas. again it doesn't say it is necesary. No where does Mr. Krughoff say it is absolutely neccesary that you provide UVB. Why? Well I do not know the answer to this. Maybe becasue he does not believe that to be the truth. UVB is beneficial to the health of dragons and iguanas and this is why I provide it. But their is too much evidence out there that they can survive without it to say "These lizards need UVB to avoid MBD and Thrive"
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

"You raise an excellent point though about vitamin D2 or D3 in the diet, that certainly needs to be considered with each specie. I have a friend who just finished a study on Bearded Dragons. They were deprived of all UVB after hatching and fed Rep-Cal bearded Dragon food, exclusively. They have normal 25 hydroxy vit D levels and good bone density."

This is him responding to a question about that. The study on beared dragons by the friend was withdrawn and acknowledged to have been flawed. I can tell you for a FACT that some of the babies rasied on the rep-cal alone and dusting of d3 developed MBD, serious MDB problems, walking on wrists, twisted back legs, and mouth gaps....... if this is not the case, find the study online and please paste the URL here for others benefits.

That study was done (and removed) if its the one I think It is...and was stated to be not controled or followed up on... it was hatchling for a few months. I have one of those hatchling, it has unreversible MBD, no matter how much d3 or UVB we give him now, it will never alter what he lacked the first few months of his life

There you go. I have read his site many of times. I bought his books and read them many of times. Just thought you would enjoy this in writing from someone you say "David Krughoff of MyGreenIguana.com and a well respected person in the study of herpetology" So seems like this conflicts with what you were saying. The study you reference was done on igs a totally different species of lizard with far different needs. Igs are much more prone to MBD than dragons or so I believe. Also another interesting quote from Mr. Krughoff's site

NO iguanas are not, bearded dragons as or any sun dwelling animals is just as proned when denied it... please site the reference for your statement? You seem to pick and choose what suits you, like him mentioning another's study that is NOT published or available now and withdrawn, David tries to give all the information he has, even ones that conflicts with his so that people can further check anything themselves... and then you ignore the facts of blood panels and bone densities that are presented from his own documented and Vet monitored studies... that strangly match closed X 2-3 the aminals in their native habitat

"It is my experience and the experience of Dr. Wentz -- that a light dusting of Rep-Cal with D3 does not cause problems even in animals that get regular natural sunlight. When green iguanas DO NOT get sunlight or skillful exposure to UVB emitting lamps, Rep-Cal is the difference between life and death. Hence the recommendation in Anna's book."

How the heck does that statement support your unverified or undocumented ANYWHERE's opinion of not using UVB??? Dusting of rep-cal with d3 does not casue problems even in animals that get natural sunlight......... maybe I just don't really see that he is saying they it won't HURT even if they are getting the UVB in natural sunlight.... maybe its not there and I am having delusions. I don't see anywhere he states not to exposed them to UBV light... only that giving them rep-cal dusted won't hurt... big difference from what you allude too.

When green iguanas DO NOT get sunlight or skillful exposure to UVB emitting lamps, Rep-Cal is the difference between life and death. Hence the recommendation in Anna's book.

Let me make this easier for you since you seem to not be able to read it..... When an iguana DOES NOT get what it needs... example good balance meal...... bread and water is the difference between live and death...... not good health.. note the word skillful when used with UVB emitting lamps

"Photo biologists agree that D3 production is self limiting. Otherwise we would have a lot of dead prairie farmers, road construction workers and wild green iguanas!"

Yeah? so internal production on d3 does not overdose..... whats that got to do with not using UVB.... it does not say not to, just that those in the sun do not overproduce it in their systems

and finally

"We have never seen an overdose occur when this routine is followed. High blood levels of 25 hydroxy D3 have not developed, even when these small amounts are administered to green iguanas that enjoy several hours of natural sunlight each day."

Again... small amounts added to those in sun or UVB does not overdoes them...... so... what does that have to do with not exposing them to UVB?

You want to quote him... try this one:

"If I could only afford to buy 1 bulb for my green iguana: I'd purchase the Zoo Med Powersun™ 160 watt flood or the Active UVHeat™ 100 watt or 160 watt SPOT(NOT THE FLOOD). I believe the average keeper would end up providing adequate UVB with one of these, all things considered. This conclusion is the result of my own experimentation, my vet's experience and countless e-mails from readers and other researchers.
David Krughoff, http://www.myiguana.com

But guess I am probably still crazy to think that a dragon can get by without UVB.

ermmm, finally, a guess of yours we agree on

Yeah, And I guess the Dachiu's are "crazy" also. I told you all those bulbs you assumed were UV are just plain old flourescents. Why don't you ask them how many cases of MBD there see in there beardies. I think the sheer amount that they raise successfully in this manner says alot more than any argument you've presented against such husbandry.

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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

read this forum and if that is the case, I would think they would respond here openly that they do not use any UVB with the dragons they raisee and keep to breed. And a summary of the time it has been like this and the results if the dragons have thrived well

I and others would be very interested in knowing that answer

Ok let me start on this one now. The study I was refering to still is mentioned on myiguana.com. From what I was told the study lasted two years, and from the site blood panels/xrays showed normal d3 blood serum and bone density. No mention of MBD. So maybe we are speaking of different studies, as if the study showed MBD I am sure it would be mentioned. The study was not published because there was not enough control. No negative controls were used, they would have to do it with probably 4-6 groups of dragons; dragons fed only repcal no UVB, dragons fed only RepCal with UVB, dragons kept feeding on crickets/veggies with no uvb and no supplementation, dragons feeding on crickets/veggies with UVB and not supplementation, and finally a group feed cricket/veggies with UVB and supplementation. To publish something you need negative controls. This was a pilot study. Sorry it isn't published. But it does say in clear English that dragons raised on just RepCal had good bone density on the site.

www.myiguana.com/antohow.html

Keep reading it ALL the way to the end. It pops up on the 2 cpus I have used, and actually a third cpu that in my lab that I have never logged onto before.

Ok, I still think that you are comparing apples to oranges when comparing an iguana's needs to a bearded dragon's needs, or applying the findings of a study on iguannas to bearded dragons. Snakes spend plenty of time in the sun. Don't think anyones ball python is getting MBD from not having UVB, same goes for boas, same goes for Tree Pythons. They all like the sun in the wild but get deprived of UVB in captivity. I think that there are other lizards that survive in captivity without UVB that get in in nature. Again my thoughts here, but I don't think alot of people provide geckos with UVB but they get UVB in the wild. I don't think anyone that raises gators provide them with UVB in their habitats but they sure love the sun in the wild. Same goes for turtles, or turtle set ups I have seen. Fish get some UVB in the wild but don't get it in captivity. Some people work all night and sleep all day and never see unfiltered sunlight they aren't getting rickets and mbd. House cats get sun in the wild but not in captivity don't see lots of MBD there. Same for rodents. I was unable to find a site quoting the incidence of MBD in iguanas to dragons. Oh well I will bite the bullet and say that herbivours like iguana don't have different needs than carnivours like dragons as far as diet and lighting needs, but by your reasoning everything shoule be under UVB lamps. Guess that was a reach on my part. LOL.

"It is my experience and the experience of Dr. Wentz -- that a light dusting of Rep-Cal with D3 does not cause problems even in animals that get regular natural sunlight. When green iguanas DO NOT get sunlight or skillful exposure to UVB emitting lamps, Rep-Cal is the difference between life and death. Hence the recommendation in Anna's book."

This quote has two meanings, the first is that the combination of UVB and light supplementation does not lead to hypercalcium or vitamin D3 toxicity. The second is that using just supplementation will keep an iguana alive, I guess I misunderstood alive as being healthy and MBD free. My fault.

"Photo biologists agree that D3 production is self limiting. Otherwise we would have a lot of dead prairie farmers, road construction workers and wild green iguanas!"

again this quote was to show that d3, a fat solubile vitamin, will not raise to toxic levels. If you combine this info and the next quote

"We have never seen an overdose occur when this routine is followed. High blood levels of 25 hydroxy D3 have not developed, even when these small amounts are administered to green iguanas that enjoy several hours of natural sunlight each day."

The routine is dusting veggies a couple times a week with calcium with D3 and providing UVB. This is not meant to show that you don't need UVB, on the contrary is is to show that the combination of UVB and calcium with D3 supplementation is a safe combination. As d3 is fat solubile and can become toxic. Just as too much calcium can become toxic.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Oh and after much reading today seems that there is a reason why iguanas would be more prone to MBD than dragons. Because dragons do eat living things, which contain fat and hence D3, they do get some amount of vitamin D3 from their natural diet, as do snakes, and all other meat eaters. This D3 is absorbed to some extent and helps in the absorption of calcium. Iguanas if feed a proper recomended diet recieve no D3 from their food source. This to me means an iguana is more prone to MBD.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Ok, it's clear that some people are on one side of the debate and some people on the other side.

FACT - UVB causes the change of regular Vit. D in the skin to Vot. D3

FACT - Bearded dragons are diurnal

FACT - People are diurnal

FACT - People exposed to regular amounts of natural sunlight are healthier and happy and have better dispositions

So common sense would say that exposure to safe amounts of UVB radiation is a GOOD thing for a diurnal species. Whether or not you supplement D3 or not. Whether you BUY bulbs or not. Nothing is better than the happy look from a bearded dragon sitting on a sun deck catching some rays.

Why do I buy UVB bulbs? Simple. I would fall to pieces if I lost my dear Bubbles to MBD or egg binding. I would fall to pieces of I caused them to have unhappy lives. They are my children, my pets, first and foremost. I give the same care to their children. Because that's what a loving mother does.

I say - do what your heart says is best for your children and understand that you are responcible for their lives and wellbeing.

BUT... also understand that people are lazy, especially novice owners who got a lizard because it was "cool"... I know some girls who don't even give their dragon greens no matter how many times I explain to them why their dragon is small and sickly looking, they don't listen. They don't supplement either. I don't even want to know if they ahve a UVB light or not (I seriously wish I knew where they lived cos I'd turn them in for neglect in a second).
Where was I going? Oh! Newbie owners need all the health aids they can get, owning a UVB bulb is NOT going to hurt their animal!

It isn't going to hurt the animals. the whole point of this argument and the one before it is things are black and white. Dragons do not need UVB, I provide it to mine. Dragons can breed before 18 months. Some people just refused to believe something outside the black and white. The reptile husbandry bussiness is one that is changing constantly, what was thought to be right before is now proven to be wrong. What is thought to be right now may be proven to be wrong tomorow. For this reason we have to be able to accept that we were wrong, and might continue to be wrong for some time to come. I do not like to tell peple not to use good UVB lights. But I also do not like to tell people that they are an absolute neccesity. Comes down to misinformation again. Saying UVB is absolutly neccesary is misinforming people. I feel if you are going to give advice to a newbie the keys are proper heat and proper diet. need heats right and need diets right. Lots of the rest is up for debate and will continue to be. But if you provide a dragon with a good supplemented diet and the right temperature and humidity it should turn out healthy.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Ok here is another thing that I feel pokes a hole in Dragons need UVB theory. Go look up what most lamps that are sold as reptiles lights. I will post the URL from Melissa Kaplan's site as to not make it that difficult.

www.anapsid.org/gehrman2.html

Seems to me out of the strips lights that she tested only 2 provide the minimum UVB that is recomeded in the study by Mr Krughoff. Reptisun and the Reptile Dlight 8%. The rest are garbage. So if dragons absolutely need UVB and the majority of lamps on the market (minus 5 the two metioned above and the zoomed, big apple, and Trex merc vapors) why doesn't every dragon kept indoors not under these 5 types of lights, which aren't available in most pet stores, not all developing MBD? Most pet stores give misinformation, or information as they see fit. Most do not have the knowledge that we do. So to me it seems that 90% of the dragons/igs out there should have MBD if they absolutely needed it. Sorry to tell you this isn't the case. But this hasn't been proving scientifically, just by results of a huge sample population of animals that do not get the UVB that is "needed".
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Oh and also how can it be proven that MBD is caused directly by lack of UVB. How can it be said that it isn't a hormonal issue. A kidney issue. A liver issue. A thyroid issue. Some other issue? I think UVB is accidently blamed for alot of things. Don't think every dragon that gets MBD is directly related to lack of MBD. Even low 25 Hydroxy vit. D blood serum levels don't prove that the problem was lack of UVB, just that the serum levels are low, the cause could be lack of UVB, or I am sure it could be one of many other things that are not understood.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com