Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I work for a medical society (however I'm not a doctor, too dumb). In modern medicine the concept of "evidence-based medicine" is central.

To explain, it's a kind of dirty secret in the medical profession that the treatment and outcomes for diseases treatment vary widely between different sections of the country (and sometimes even in the same city). By outcomes I mean how did the treatment work and how did the patient fare. To correct this problem doctors have tried to establish standard protocols to be used universally for the treatment of specific conditions or diseases. Otherwise, many physicians simply keep on using what they learned years ago that may have become outdated or was not a particularly sound treatment in the first place.

This approach is called "evidenced-based medicine," that is, the treatment is based on scientific studies that have been widely tested and have proven to be the most effective.

In a related vein, one of the first things doctors are taught in medical school is to not rely on anecdotal evidence. That is, a doctor's brother loved to eat corn and developed colon cancer in his 40s. He mentions this to another doctor and the latter says, "know the same thing happended to my cousin."
As a result the first doctor goes around telling patients to always avoid corn because it causes cancer. This is not sound science.

To come to my point, there have been many discussions on the board about keeping snakes together. Now, there is the obvious things not to do, like keeping a king snake with a corn snake (unless you're in a "Sophie's Choice" situation and the Nazis tell you to choose which one of your snakes must live and which must die [sorry for the corny drama]).

So, are there any science-based study concerning the dangers of or inadvisability of keeping different snakes of related species together? For example, a corn snake with a black rat snake. Ideally, these would be conducted by true scientific principles, that is in a controlled situation involving a large population.

Obviously, if one snake stops feeding you know you've got a problem. But if both keep eating, is there a problem? This, of course, presumes both are captive born, disease free, fed separately, etc.

Now I'll engage in a little anthropomorphism (the attributing of human traits to animals). I personally don't like a lot of people. however, most studies show that no matter what your regard for your fellow man, it's generally better for your mental health to have some interaction with fellow human beings. Could the same be true of snakes? Could a little stress be better than the boredom of life alone?

Do snakes have personalities? Not like humans of course, but it does seeem similar snakes raised in similar (or identical conditions) can take on different personalities. For example, the occassional snake of a docile breed that is plain irritable and quite snappy.

Sorry for the long post. I've learned so much on this board I look forward to your reply (I'm posting this in the corn and ratsnake section too).

Best wishes for the holidays.

In response do snakes have personalitys, observations seem to say yes, but much of science says no. Many of the traits we consider personality factors supposidly did not evolve until much after the period of snakes. However it is obvious that some snakes are more or less tame than others. Is this just a weakened fear of humans that causes what we might think is a friendly snake? Maybe. Some people claim their animals enjoy bieng held, but with the human body bieng as much of furnace as it is wouldn't it make sense. We are a basking zone to many reptiles. So you could argue all day if snakes have personalitys but it is to hard to judge in my experiences. Snakes do very in reaction to predators, but personality may be pushing it. Remember scientifically only mammals and birds can do things like play and enjoy contact. So until you prove personality I do no think you can prove influence between species. However in my finding the tameness of a snake is only true for that animal and can not rub off. For example I have two malaysian bloods kept in the same large display tank, it looks great. One has always been tame and one would love to kill you. This has never changed. I also have a rotten retic that does not influence my friendly tiger retic at all when they are around eachother for breeding. The only apperant change in an animals behavior when they are kept together seems to be stress. The presence of another animal can cause stress and in turn cause a tame snake to become aggressive. In my humble opinion stress is as far as snake influence goes, and the study needs to be studied on a nervous tissue level to deduce much more than that.
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2.2 Malaysian Blood Python
1.2 Borneo Black Blood Pythons
1.2 Sumatran Blood Pythons
1.2 Pastel Red Tail Boas
2.4 Ball Python
1.0 Albino Retic
0.1 Tiger Retic
0.1 Albino Burmese Python
1.1 Calibar Python
1.0 Macklotts Python
1.1 Jungle Carpet Python
1.2 Kenyan Sand Boa
0.0.1 Kirklands Water Snake
0.0.1 Florida Banded Water Snake
0.0.1 Costa Rican Parrot Snake
0.0.2 Desert Night Snake
0.0.1 Oreintal Whip Snake
0.0.2 Western Shovel Nose snake
0.0.1 Mendota King Snake
0.0.1 Mohave Side Winder
0.1 Neon Cape Gopher
1.0 Thia Beauty Snake
0.0.1 Trans Pecos Rat Snake
2.4 Albino Natida King
1.2 Albino Conjuncta King
1.2 Desert Banded Gecko
1.1 Central American Banded Gecko
1.1 Tibetan Frog Eye Gecko
1.1 Dwarf Dune Gecko

Hi, thanks for the response.
Let me qualify my question somewhat and make some observations. First, the question is whether snakes of the same species and classification be kept together without harm to each other. That is, a corn snake with a corn snake.

Then, the second part is will the corn snakes actually be happier to have a cage mate than not? This presumes it is an adequately sized cage with multiple hide boxes and the such for some privacy when needed (sounds like my wife and I!). Likewise, they will be fed separately, are of the same size and so on.

Third, will it harm or help a snake to have a similar species in the same cage. For example, a corn snake with a black rat snake. Or a corn with a fox snake. I'm not using the scientific nomenclature here, but I mean snakes of the ratsnake family but of slightly different classifications. Everglades, black, fox, etc. Again, this presumes you are only going to group the two snakes with quite similar environmental needs and subject to the caging description above.

Ideally, the perfect experiment would be something like this:
A control group of 200 corn snakes living alone.
Another group of 200 corn snakes kept with another corn snake
200 corn snakes kept with a black rat snake.
200 corn snakes kept with a fox snake.
And so forth and so on.

Of course, the question is: how do you measure success? How do you measure a snake's happiness? If they both keep eating ok and otherwise seem in good health, is the experiment of keeping different but similar snakes together a success?

In response to your observation about the bloods and relics I would make the following observation (although I admit I'm no expert). It seems to me tropical snakes and the such always seem a little stranger in behaivor than snakes commonly bred and kept for pets (like the corn). I'd appreciate your insight on this.

Many thanks for your time.

Unlike humans, dogs, dolphins etc. Snakes are not pack animals. They don't communicate to each other. Depending on the snake and the time of year, two males might be territorial and they may fight. Having to snakes together may not harm the snakes, but I can't see any benifit.

I do like the idea of more science based herpetology though.

Jack
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There's a village in Texas missing it's idiot

> First, the question is whether snakes of the same species and classification be kept together without harm to each other.

It depends on the genus. Yes you can keep corns with corns and ball pythons with ball pythons. However, I would strongly caution against housing ophiophagous species together - eg. king cobras with any other snake, milks or kings with any other snake [except for breeding]. I have housed Ball Pythons together [two females] briefly and saw no problems - both ate, behaved normally, etc. and at the zoo I work at we house two Madagascar Tree Boas together - again no issues except keeping them separated during feeding time. We also house Green Tree Pythons [male and female] and at one time two adult male Burmese Pythons together - in both instances no problems, just keep them separate during feeding. I would not house differing genera together however as most inhabit conflicting niches or would compete for resources and/or would be incompatible in some other behavioral-related regard.

>Then, the second part is will the corn snakes actually be happier to have a cage mate than not?

Except for Garter Snakes inhabiting hibernacula during a brumation period their is little evidence that snakes seem to seek each other out except for breeding. In fact there is no [to my knowledge]parental investment in the care of offspring either [except egg incubation in pythons] which goes along with much of the scientific evidence which so far confirms that snakes are almost exclusively solitary animals except when breeding or brumation comes into play. Snakes of the same genus when housed together will often lay together in the same hide spots but I would argue that is simply because that particular hide spot happens to be the best in terms of temperature, feeling most secure, [this seems to be the force behind the large accumulations of garters in hibernacula] etc. So, I would have to say 'No,' snakes will not feel better for the prescence of another of their kind.

>Third, will it harm or help a snake to have a similar species in the same cage. For example, a corn snake with a black rat snake. Or a corn with a fox snake.

Again, refer to the answer above. Snakes of differing genera often occupy different niches or the same niche in different geographic locales. So, if it were me, no, I would not house a Black Rat with a Corn, to use your example, or say a Black Rat with a an Indigo Snake [the Black Rat would probably become dinner].

>Of course, the question is: how do you measure success? How do you measure a snake's happiness? If they both keep eating ok and otherwise seem in good health, is the experiment of keeping different but similar snakes together a success?

This is probably uneccessary. I believe many snakes of the same genera can be housed with multiple individuals together, but I would draw the line at multiple genera exhibits.

>In response to your observation about the bloods and retics I would make the following observation (although I admit I'm no expert). It seems to me tropical snakes and the such always seem a little stranger in behaivor than snakes commonly bred and kept for pets (like the corn).

Some species of 'tropical' snakes kept in the pet trade do come from genera that happen to have a more aggressive nature by and larger than many colubrids. Also consider that many colubrids kept as 'pets' have been selected for their docile nature and less demanding food requirements [ie. corns and black rats]. There aren't many N.American Racers kept in captivity because they're nervous, aggressive and often don't do well in captive environments because they're so active. Also, look at common colubrids such as garters and water snakes. Both snakes are from very commonly encountered genera in the wild but often very nervous and in some cases downright nasty captives.

My two cents.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

` I started this community over five years ago, with five young Boids, and one older one. They had been in quarantine for over a year, and I was satisfied that their health was good.
` One of the Yellow Anacondas, a female, became aggressive at the end of the first year, and I removed her. She had begun to outgrow the others. Today, she is huge, lives alone, and has a touchy personality.
` The rest, three male Yellow Anacondas, one Boa constrictor, and a Ball Python remain together.
` I originally picked them for their calm behavior and very mild feeding responses, except the Ball. Life in the community seems to have reinforced their calm behavior. The Anacondas will hand feed, without striking, or constricting. The Boa has always been extremely timid about handling, and feeding. After feeding, he usually burrows under the Anacondas, and sleeps between their coils. He's not a bit timid toward the other Boids, just humans, any humans. Once you have him out and in hand, he's fine, but he's nervous about being picked up. The Ball Python is the aggressive one, about feeding. He'll eat anything, and he always attacks and kills his frozen/thawed food. None of these animals has ever been fed live food.
` The community is too much work, it is much easier to keep them alone, so all my other snakes live alone. For a couple of weeks after feeding, clean-up is intense. Often, several times per day. The experience has been worth it, though. They usually sleep together, soak together ( except the Ball, he only gets his lips wet ), and when removed from the habitat together, will seek each other out.
` Here are a few pix, taken over the last five years.
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From first year.

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` Two of the male Anacondas "dancing". These two often do this, when the females, in other cages, are in season. They puff up their throats like rat snakes. I watch them closely, during these times. I've never seen one open his mouth. It can last for an hour, then they go to sleep, often in the same tub.

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` They smell their food thawing.

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Stop the world-I want to get off!

There is probably to little research on captive snakes. Science however has its short comings, there are many antedotical shortcuts one can make based on intuition and common sense. It doesn't take a study to realize that if you put two different snakes from two different parts of the world together that they might make each other sick. And I don't need a study to tell me that ball pythons get comfort from having another ball python as a cage mate, the simple obsevation that regardless of cage size they always remain in physical contact with each other, is enough for me. It seems to me that there are two types of discussions, scientific and antedotical, the antedotical discussions are where ideas and assumptions are created and the scientific are when they are cleaned up. I agree that we need more of the latter.

Thank you all for your replies. As always I am humbled by the people who answer (including a professional zoo keeper!).

I'll conclude by giving my last several cents worth.

1. Snake discussions always tend to end up mixing apples with oranges. That is, you can start by discussing corn snakes, but then someone throws in pythons and someone else mentions their experience with rainbow boas. Although not a professional, I think we can all assume their nature and character varies significantly to the point where a generalization about one kind of snake can't be made in reference to a seperate genus (or whatever).
2. Most people cite snake behavior in the wild as proof of their point. But take the example of the typical captive corn snake. They were born in a plastic container. They have always had food handed to them -- they never really had to hunt. They are sold and then live in a plastic aquarium or another plastic box. Again, all food needs are met. Likewise, constant temperatures are provided. None of these things would happen in the wild. How much does wild behavior applies then? All animals act primarily on instinct, but snakes do learn things. Like knowing to associate the opening of their cage with feeding (so we feed them in separate containers). How much influence has generations of captive breeding produced?

So to get to my longwinded point, presuming obvious stress does not occur, can keeping two snakes together actually help their health? That is, provide some stimulation since they get none in captivity?

I doth pontificate!

Well if you are not looking for antedotical response i.e. the ball python example I gave earlier, then you'll have to do a test. How about this, Get several snakes preferably from the same clutch and keep some in pairs and some singularly. Measure their weight and health for a period of time and then come to a conclusion.To reinforce your findings place the singular snakes together in pairs to see if the resulting changes if any matches your conclusion.