Reptile & Amphibian Forums

O.k., maybe not today BUT mark my words our hobby will not enjoy these freedoms much longer. The first time one of the many cobras, vipers, mambas, or any other venomous snake you can think of that folks in our hobby maintain get out and bite some neighbor's kid or the neighbor themself thats it! The government will come down HARD on all of us. I deal with USFWS, Dept. of fish and game on a regular basis, and the officials I have spoken with are actively trying to find ways to deal with this issue. They would like to see an all out ban on the keeping of any venomous reptilesk, barring that, they would settle for the banning of imported venomous and unleash HUGE fines on those that disobey the law. I personally dont see the attraction in keeping a Mamba, Gaboon, or Echis. What is the attraction to an animal that can/would kill you, that at the least will cause you an UNBELIEVABLE hospital bill when it bites you. Dont get me wrong I love reptiles(its why Im a biologist)but the idea that the average, untrained, inexperienced, citizen can have a king cobra or black mamba shipped to thier house, enter that animal into their collection and not see the traumatic surgery that has reduced it to something it was never meant to be is insane!! I saddens me to no end to see how we still treat the "lesser" animals on our planet. Mark my words, our hobby is burning a short fuse folks, one day in the not too distant future the word will go out. I pity the animals that will have to be destroyed, I fear the animals that will be foolishly released. Like the 12' black mamba I captured in a cane field in Homestead, Florida, and sent to the Miami Zoo after Hurricane Andrew. That was not very fun, especially since I didnt have anything more than a pillowcase and a normal sized field hook. Better than it wondering into someones house though.
Anyways, this rant is based on the butcher job I witnessed ont he cobra, how terribly sad to do that to an animal just so a human can reach in and pick it up and impress their friends without fear of death. Thats the one thing these snakes have going for them, otherwise you might as well have a cornsnake. I mean really, what is the point of rendering a snake like that impotent?
COunt the days kids, count the days...

Why keep an animal that can kill you, you ask???? I must have heard this question a hundred thousand times..... Why do you do the things you do???? Why do people ride motorcycles???? Why do people jump out of perfectly good airplanes with a parachut on their backs..... Why do you drive a car???? You could easily die in an accident...... Why would anyone ride a bicycle or a skateboard???? You could fall and get hurt.... Why do you study biology???? Why go out camping or hiking???? You might get hoofed by a deer or eaten by a bear.... While we are at it, why do you leave your house???? You might get hit buy a truck on your way out the door..... Comming from a biologist, that is a pretty silly question.... In the proper hands (not literaly) with the proper tools and experiance, these snake are no more dangerous than large constrictors or you friendly neighborhood pitbull.....

I do however, feel you are right when it comes to venomoids.... They will be a big part of our hobby..... To tell you the truth I would rather see an all out ban of venomous reptiles than to see maltreated, abused, and sickly voids up for sale.....

It will be a shame if these animals are banned from the private collector...... The private keeper has done more for individual species than any zoo could ever dream of..... When a zoo needs to know certain husbandry requirments on a certain species, where do you think they get their info from????? The private keeper, thats who..... I should know because in over 10 years of keeping gaboons, I have been contacted by 4 zoos on capive requirments and I am currently working with one zoo on a breeding program..... Zoos use private collectors alot more often than they like to admit.....

.

Why all of the things you mention can indeed kill you, they are much less likely to. Keeping any venomous snake, and I can tell from your post that Ive kept far more than you, can never and will never be the same as owning a large constrictor much less a dog?? That is the most irresponsible thing Ive heard posted on this forum since the 90's. I am well aware of the private communities contribution to reptile keeping, they do not contribute more than the persons directly involved.
I spoke about this with Joe Slowinski once or twice, but I would be seriously stunned if more than one or two percent of the people that post here are making significant contributions to the field of herpetology, thats what scientific journals are for.
You are right though, in PROPER hands venomous snake ownership can be rewarding, BUT you better be prepared for the worst when it happens-I would be interested to know if you are, do you have protocol in place, phone #'s to hosp. and poison control, up to date records of antivenin caches, listed allergys, next of kin, insurance that will cover your medical bills which will be quite hefty, some ins will void your policy if it is learned you did not inform them of your hobby. So are you prepared??? Now, imagine the snake has just bitten your neighbor, niece, nephew, sister, brother, mother, father, should I go on?? How about escaped into your apartment building-can you say mandatory evacuation?
Its called consequences, are you ready to stand before the mast?
Cheerio
B

First I would like to state that you are way more likely to be killed in a car accident than being bitten by a snake.... Secondly, how can you tell by my post that you have kept more of anything than me???? Besides, what differance does that make???? Thirdly, I live in my own house so there will be no evictions....LOL.... My snakes also have their own hot room..... Even if they escape their cages, they can not exit the room...... I do not think I need to explain anything else to you because honestly you are nobody..... My reputation within the venomous community speaks for itself..... Someone in the other forum questioned my credentials and got shot down pretty quickly..... But I will be nice and answer your question anyway.... I have a full protcol with everything you mentioned and much more..... And yes I do have my own AV on site that needs to be updated in a year..... A little gift from one of the zoos I helped out.... Pretty much when it comes to bitis there are not many that have as much info or experiance working with them as I do...... I have been keeping them for well over 10 years..... I did not start by keeping gaboons.... There were a few years of keeping other hots before that.... Maybe that is why you assumed you have "kept more" than me???? Anyway, happy herping and happy holidays.....

You can save your lectures about what I had better be prepared for..... I knew what I was getting into when I bought my first copperhead..... Thanks for the concern though.....

I am covered..... My insurance through my job actually covers snake bite because of the buisiness I am in..... Actually when I read the particulars that was the first thing I looked for....LOL..... Yes, a bite can be costly but a bite from an exotic is cheaper than a bite from a native..... And when you are covered, it is even cheaper.... So I am pretty sure I have all angles covered..... What do you think???? Not that it matters much.....

I AGREE WITH GREGMM, I DON'T POST MUCH BUT READ EVERY DAY, I AM 30 YEARS OLD AND HAVE BEEN KEEPING SNAKES FOR ABOUT 15 YEARS. I HAVE A VAST COLLECTION OF HERPS. THEY RANGE FROM MY FIVE FOOT SPEC. CAIMAN TO MY 18 FOOT BURM, AS WELL AS MY 12 HOTS. I KEEP FOUR RATTLERS, TWO GABOONS, TWO RHINOS, FOUR COBRAS. I DO NOT BREED AND KEEP ALL MY ANIMALS IN VERY NATURAL ENCLOSURES. MY ONE POINT IS THAT I CAN'T REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I HAD A CLOSE ENCOUNTER WITH A HOT SNAKE, I HAVE THE CORRECT TOOLS AND ALOT OF RESPECT, THAT IS ENOUGH TO SAVE MY LIFE. IF YOU STUDY THE FACTS ON SNAKE BITES IN CAPTIVITY, THE FAULT IS ALWAYS THE OWNERS. THERE ARE BAD SEEDS EVERYWHERE, HOW WOULD DOG OWNERS FEEL IF THE NEXT TIME A MASTIFF BIT SOMEONE WE BANNED ALL DOGS , EVEN POODLES. I LOVE MY SNAKES, IT IS WHAT I WAKE UP TO, AND WHAT I GO TO BED THINKING ABOUT. AND NO I AM NOT LONELY, MARRIED WITH TWO KIDS. SORRY FOR THE LONG POST, JASON

you should probably admit though that your scenario is a bit flawed. there is a HUGE difference between a dog biting a persons hand and a venomous snake doping the same. i'm not saying one way or the other about banning these snakes, just saying that's not a real good argument to make.
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0.0.2 T.c.carolina

Greg,
Why are you so defensive? There are lots of people who do and have worked with Bitis. I am looking at a paper right now from 1979- one of the first published reports of breeding gaboons. You may be a great keeper, but why are you acting like you are and no one else is? That is not condusive to a good learning environment.
Zoos have bred gaboons since the 70's- maybe some have contacted you for advice, but I imagine that is out of a desire to gather as much info as possible about husbandry, and is not a testament to your overwhelming knowledge. We should all learn from each other and knowledge should not be used as a weapon. That seems to be what you are doing.
Yours and others posts about zoos are insulting. How many people here donate over $1000 per year to conservation efforts? Zoos donate tens of thousands each year to numerous projects on a variety of taxa (including reptiles) that make actual conservation impact. Keeping an animal in a cage is not research and is not conservation- it only has an effect if it keeps some animals from not being collected. But I still see w/c gaboons for sale, so obviously it hasn't stopped that. Ending the pet trade would, however. (I am not for that, just making a point.)
Private individuals can and do make significant contributions to a variety of fields, including herpetology. However, this does not mean the professionals do nothing. Why are you putting them down? AZA zoos don't breed many gaboons (or several other species that are well-represented) because they are constrained in who they can surplus animals to. Maybe you don't agree with it, but AZA zoos are not supposed to send any animals into the private sector. How else can they get rid of the large number of babies species like gaboons can have? So they do the responsible thing and not breed them at all. In case you are wondering, those regulations came about because of canned hunts involving mammals and really have nothing to do with herps at all, but AZA just made it an all encompasing policy.
Lastly, I hope you have an IND number for that antivenom you claim to have. If not, you and the zoo who gave it to you are violating FDA law.
Kristen Wiley
Kentucky Reptile Zoo

we have lost alot of our rights to keep venomous,a hefty fine for stupid people would help.I didnt know the gun was loaded,my dog cant jump a 4ft fence,I surely thought a book would hold down the screen top on my cobra cage.We lost our rights to keep tropical venomous snakes in Alabama,due to greedy ignorant people.We beat the law the first go around,but when a spitting cobra got out of it,s 10 gallon with the cardboard top,that was it.Our problem is within our hobby.

Gregg, dont let your assistance at the "zoo" go to your head, Ive helped out several, spent time in the field with some of the big boys (you know, real herpetologists with real credentials)over the past 27 years, and I worked with more than one or two spp. of hot snake during that short time.
Your reply to my post proves my point, your defensive, you insulted another person who had not really said anything to you directly. My advice: read Kristens post it sums up 3 of the replys that I have written but couldnt post because I got dropped offline. And, she touches on many of the points I had in my previous posts. The last point being, your AV, I find it hard to believe they are giving it away to hobbyists, aside from breaking FDA law, they are violating the conditions of their accredidation with the AZA. If the boardmembers of the zoo found out, somebodys head would roll. Also, please inform all of us when you publish your next paper, give your next AZA seminar or have a book signing - us "nobodys" are looking for all the help we can get from the animal planet set!
Happy Hannakuh

You keep mentioning that fish and wildlife are pushing for an all out ban of reptiles. I am in florida too and every inspector I mention that to tells me its nonesense. I dont know which officers you talk to, but they usually get offended when you mention an all out ban to them.

Please don't interpret this as being pro-venomoid. When it comes to legislation, I see venomoids as a non-issue.

People keeping venomous snakes, inappropriate displays and getting bit by venomous snakes are the reasons legislators take notice and ban them.

Nobody getting bit by a venomoid will cause a stir in the legislative world because when there is no envonomation and trip to the hospital, there is no reporting of the event.

I think if all the energy I see spent on this forum blasting venomoids were spent establishing good laws and regulations, we wouldn't be fearing the tidal wave of bans that's coming to a state near you... maybe your own.

As my own state is likely to completely ban the keeping of hots in the next year or so, I see fussing over venomoids as trivial.

Doug Taylor

venomoids can provide the needed ammunition for animal rights radicals like PETA (who are very well networked and have A LOT of money to spread their word around)to push for a ban on reptiles completely. We already know PETA wants a COMPLETE ban on pet ownership, with the exception of domestic animals like cats and dogs...I wouldn't be suprised if they wanted FISH(!) to be banned.

All PETA needs to do is set up a propaganda program stating that all reptile keepers are animal abusers, show some pics of venomoids (like the king cobra posted in a thread below), and voila, you have half of Hollywood donating millions of dollars to them so they can gain even more strength...money talks, and eventually those lunatics will get what they want...a COMPLETE ban on pet ownership.

So there you go, that is how venomoids can contribute to the demise of the herp hobby in general, not just hots.

that since it's a well known fact that most venomoids on the market are done ILLEGALLY, PETA doesn't even have to lie about animal cruelty...it's true. Ideally, PETA would only work to get the illegal butchery of venomous snakes banned, which would definitely be a good thing, but in the real world, PETA and other radicals would just use that as a stepping stone for their real goal...a COMPLETE ban.

...venomoids will not be used to ban reptiles, or they will be but a very small shred of evidence against the hobby. By far and away, the bites, illegal keeping, and fear of neighbors getting hurt will be the deciding votes.

We need to face it; the general populace doesn't like snakes, esp. venomous ones...we will find little to no sympathy for this hobby in the arena of public opinion or lawmakers.

PETA is still considered, by and large, a fringe movement, and fortunately aren't taken very seriously...esp. considering the amount of $$ they've put into advertising ("drink beer, not milk,", almost naked women in cages in downtown harrisburg)...

If you don't think that an envenomation that receives full-blown and distorted media coverage moves us closer to a ban than venomoids ever could then you are severly misguided.

my opinion,
Steve

Being that I was employed at the zoo, I was able to get it ordered for me..... 100% legal..... And show me where any law was violated.... As for being deffensive, did you read lateralis post to me???? I do not feel the need to explain myself to you or anyone..... You can get all the info you want from "real" herpetologist or the "big boys" that work in the field..... The truth is that when it comes to captive husbandry you can take everything learned from the field and through it out of the window..... I never actually badmouthed zoos or people that work their butts off in the field, I just stated a fact that not too many are aware of..... I have nothing but respect for most individuals that work in or run zoos...... Zoos are a big way to help educate the general public...... However I can not say I have learned a single thing about captive husbandry from a zoo..... It is true that we should be helping eachother but when someone starts talking to me like I am some little kid it kind of get to me a bit.... How can anyone tell by any of my post if they have kept far more animals than I have???? That in itself was kind of a babyish statement, dont you think???? Anyway, I am a big fan of doing things legaly so there is no need to worry about what I do...... You should worry about the people shipping hots through regular mail carriers, people hacking up snakes to make a profit, inexperianced people keeping hots and people keeping hots illegaly...... Believe me or dont.... It makes no differance to me either way..... Another thing, name dropping does nothing to impress me so you can save that aswell....

I should have added that I was technically employed by the particular zoo and I was assisted in getting the AV..... But I did not have to put a single dime into it..... Hope this adds alittle more clarity into the questions you asked..... I will be sure to include every detail when I post to you from now on.....