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want to get into dart frogs

jonnyt21 Dec 18, 2004 04:26 PM

this is my first post in this forum.. i have been reading up on dart frogs, specifically D. azureus, for a few weeks and i think i have decided to get some. But first i have a few questions..
1. Where can i get one? (be reminded i live in Canada and i need somewhere that can ship here)
2. Also, i am not 100% sure on how to set up an aquarium for these. I know i need gravel with soil subtrate, plants rooted into the substrate, and water. But i dont know how much water i need at the bottom.

Any info on this subject would be greatly appreciated because i am eagerly looking forward to getting some of this gorgeous frogs.
thanks
jon

Replies (16)

mydumname Dec 18, 2004 06:05 PM

I am also looking to get some D. azureus this summer.I purchased other arrow frogs from Patrick Nabors at www.saurian.net
Good guy and he can tell you everything you need to know. I would go with his sexed pairs for $250 that way you know what you have and you can breed them. You should only keep two together especially being a beginner at it. Go with a small tank such as a 10 gallon or a 20 would be a little better for not taking up much more space or adding much to the cost.
Check out www. blackjungle.com for the supplies to set the tank up. Try terra-lite on the bottom, then add a substrate divider, followed by coco bedding on top. Make each level roughly two inches. Put water in the bottom level only and try and keep the substrate fairly dry so as not to kill some of your plants. They also sell backgrounds, coco huts, plants, moss, wood, and anything else you may need. They do sell frogs, but I don't think they have sexed frogs. You can e-mail me any other questions if you would like and I could tell you more details on my setup. I am fairly new also so I know what it is like trying to get good information. I could possibly cut your research time down for you. mydumname@hotmail.com
My name is Greg. Good luck, e-mail me if you decide on what to do or have any questions.

slaytonp Dec 18, 2004 06:57 PM

I don't know of any Canadian breeders personally, but I'm sure there are some very reliable ones in Canada. I'm sure a search will turn up some if no one here responds with suggestions.

Azureus are beautiful frogs and are not among the difficult species to keep. They are still relatively expensive, although with their popularity and increased breeding, the price is going down.

I like the false bottoms with a waterway best. There have been many discussions here in the past on various ways of building them, complete with pictures, so search this subject, (from here) as well. It doesn't have to be too complicated to work well. In any event, either the false bottom or the gravel drainage layer should be about 4 inches deep. The water can be sumped out of a drainage layer with a simple hole in one corner and a length of aquarium air hose tubing for siphoning. (This is all I use as well for changing water in a false bottom, although there are many other ways of doing this more automatically.) You can also search around our photo gallery under cages, terrariums, etc. for other ideas.

Take a lot of time planning and building and planting your first vivarium--It's as much fun as keeping the frogs, in my opinion. Don't be afraid to invent. A well planted dart tank is relatively self-sustaining and more or less biological balanced, so keep in mind that with a well planned tank, you won't need to do any major overhauls for 3-4 years. I'm just now facing the need for a major take-down and substrate replacement on a 4 year old 135 gallon paludarium. (I have all of the original dart frogs and most of the original fish in this, so it's obviously remained in a healthy state with just glass celaning, some plant trimming, substrate top-dressing and frequent partial water changes in the aquarium section.)

In my experience, all the dart frogs I've kept seem to appreciate a waterway and falls of some sort. This is where the false bottom is so handy. Even the so-called terrestrial darts will utilize the upper reaches if you give them a background with cocas panels and cork bark, with bromeliads to hang out in. I'm watching 6 adult leucomelas now, all hunting and hopping around in the upper canopy of bromeliad leaves, where they also sleep.
-----
Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

jonnyt21 Dec 18, 2004 07:19 PM

thanks both of you herpers for all the info. this will be my first amphibian so i want to make sure i know what i am doing. so far my experience has come from reptiles and invertebrates.

im a little confused over the tank setup. every false bottom setup i have seen i am not sure how it works.. could u put a pic up and explain how it works? thanks

the other way, with just substrate and water, couldnt i just syphon the water out the top with a tube instead of cutting a hole in the tank?(maybe i just read that description wrong)

but anyways i went to petland tonight and asked if they could order some azureus in and they will let me know soon if they can and how much. so i will probably be putting up more questions soon.

thanks
jon

mydumname Dec 18, 2004 11:25 PM

The false bottom provides a drainage for the substrate so that it does not hold all the way in. Basically, look at a flower pot, they have holes so excess water goes out and doesn't rot the roots away. It seems to be more for the plants, but I do believe it aids in the humidity. The water in the drainage layer starts evaporating and then turns into condensation on the glass of my tanks. Did you go to either site I put in here, blackjungle has the products for the false bottom and Saurian explains some methods. Many things can be used for this. I do not think she means to cut a hole in the tank, just have access to the bottom layer from inside the tank.
Before you get that store to order them, make sure you know the size they will be. If younger, you don't want to introduce them to a big tank or a heavily planted one. Check the size of the frogs before determining the tank size. However, make sure your tank is ready before you purchase them. You are in luck that they should be captive bred because it is illegal to export them from Brazil and Surinam, which is where these are from. If you want an established, guaranteed frog, check out saurian.net or even for a sexed pair which would be a little older and bigger for a little more money though. At least you know what you are getting. I really recommend at least checking his site and calling him. I had no problems getting mine through delivery service. Keep me informed on your decision.

justinm Dec 18, 2004 11:26 PM

hi jon,

i live in canada and have a few dart frogs
i don't have any azureus.. but mark pepper does.. he offers quite a few dart frogs in canada... i've bought alot of frogs from him and he is a knowledgable guy.. his website is www.understoryenterprises.com

vamppire Dec 19, 2004 02:52 AM

Hi there!

I just started with dart frogs myself, and have been having so much fun with them!

At first, I was confused about the false bottom thing too, and it seemed like a tough project. But it really isn't hard at all.

I have pictures of my 10 gallon vivarium here:

photobucket.com/albums/v630/vamppire/Leucomelas Dart Frogs - Brad and Janet/

10 gallons is good for a pair of darts. I have 2 leucomelas frogs, myself. ^_^

The false bottom technical aspects are pretty basic - you raise the substrate, so the water can drain to the bottom so the substrate is not constantly soggy and sitting in old water.

To do this, you need something to hold up the new floor - most people use PVC pipe connectors. I used 6 2" connectors for my tank. Look in the plumbing department of your home improvement store. (Do you have Home Depot or Lowes?)

The floor itself is made using what's called "egg crate." Egg crate is actually a light diffuser used for fluorescent lights, so you can find it in the lighting area. You cut the egg crate with a cutting tool (wire cutters work) so it can cover the size of the aquarium.

On top of the eggcrate, secure some fiberglass mesh (not metal). This keeps the substrate from falling to the water. I used 2 layers of mesh, and probably should've used at least one more, as some dirt escaped to the bottom. I found the roll of mesh in the door/window section of my store.

I used a Repti-flo 250 pump from petland, with 1/2" hose (also found in the home store - petland doesn't have it). Some people house the pumps in containers under the water to help keep dirt out to prevent the pump from clogging, but I didn't do this. I cut a removable square out of the eggcrate (left the piece there, but it is disconnected from the rest of the crate), so if i need to remove the pump, I only have to dig up one corner of the tank to get it, and not the whole thing.

That's basically all there is to the mechanics of the false bottom system. Just have the hose come up from the crate, and the rest is all aesthetics and fun! I have my water trickling down some rocks, as that is really all I could do with my supplies and the room in the tank, but if you are using a large tank, more elaborate waterfalls are a possibility!

For the substrate, you want to have a drainage layer on the bottom. I used the clay pellets from blackjungle.com (most of my vivarium items came from them), covered that with sphagnum moss, then used the coco fiber brick stuff. I covered it with live moss. I used blackjungle's tree fern background and their ghost wood (which is supposedly good for humid enclosures). Their jungle pods are really need too!

Unforutnately, I ordered 4 plants from them, and the fern is the only thing that survived. For their price, most were quite small and I am disappointed they didn't last. I assumed that since they only really deal with dart frogs and vivariums, that the plants would thrive in one. So I would recommend getting your plants from the home improvement store if they have a garden center.

Anyway, I hope some of this was of help. Don't be intimidated by the false bottom setup, it is easy and you will have tons of fun setting up the water features and the rest of the decor! (and some frustration, but its worth it in the end!)
Image
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~ Vamppire
Queens, New York City

jonnyt21 Dec 19, 2004 07:50 AM

first off thanks for everyones info and help, much appreciated.
i checked out saurian.net and there is some excellent info on frogs and vivariums. the only problem about the guaranteed sexed pair is the cost. once it is converted to canadian dollars and then add the shipping, the cost for the 2 frogs would be over at least 350, which is a little pricy. thanks for explaining the false bottom. i researched a few designs and totally understand how they function. i havt two 30 gallon tanks which i can use but they may be too big??? should i get a 20 gallon for 2 frogs to start, i eventually want 3 or 4. i will post again later today, i am late for work lol.. i will respond to the other posts then as well.. one last question, what kind of top should be used? could i use a screen top and just have a fluroescent bulb lay on it? or should i use a fish aquarium top with light already in it?
thanks
jon

vamppire Dec 19, 2004 09:29 AM

Don't use an aquarium hood, the frogs will easily escape. You can use a screen cover (I like the hinged ones, myself). I have the back hinged section secured with a clip and the front part has a fluorescent light on it to hold it down. I am using the slimline fixture found on thatpetplace.com for $19.99.

The ventilation should be cut mostly (completely?) off to preserve the humidity. You can do this by using a piece of glass to cover the tank, or go the cheap route like i did and cover it with plastic wrap.
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~ Vamppire
Queens, New York City

jonnyt21 Dec 19, 2004 05:35 PM

i have decided that i am gonna start building my vivarium after new years!!! quick question, how would the frogs breathe if all the ventilation is cut off?

vamppire Dec 19, 2004 06:41 PM

They are so small, that there is plenty of air in there. You also lift the screen each day to mist/feed, which should be sufficient.
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~ Vamppire
Queens, New York City

jonnyt21 Dec 20, 2004 05:01 PM

i think i am gonna buy a 20 gallon tank for my starter vivarium. maybe one day ill get a bigger one. quick couple questions...

it would probably be a good idea to have my vivarium(when finished) run with the water and plants without the frogs for a week or two to make sure its setup right? (such as the plants staying alive and everything staying in place, waterway working etc)

also, theoretically, couldnt i also put a fish or two in the tank? they would be able to breathe because of the running water. i think it would have a nice ecosystem look to it.

thanks
jon

vamppire Dec 20, 2004 05:07 PM

Letting the tank run for awhile is always a good choice if possible. Easier to change things that aren't quite working while there aren't little frogs hopping about.

About the fish.. hmm.. well, in my tank, I don't have an open pool, just the running water above (which drains through the substrate) and the water below the floor.. and a little "pod" that has a slight depth of water for them to sit in. Can't put anything down below because the water is inaccessible, and very dirty anyway (even with mesh, the water will turn brown). I think any water pools deep enough to house a fish would be too deep for dart frogs, but, I'm no expert so maybe someone else can give their input.
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~ Vamppire
Queens, New York City

slaytonp Dec 20, 2004 05:36 PM

I think 20 gallons is a bit small for combining frogs with fish, as you need at least 6-8 inches to keep some small fish in. The 20 gallon fish tanks usually have a fitted hinged glass top that you can purchase separately. They work very nicely if you make sure the plastic back flap fits tightly. I usually tape the corners of these over over any place there is an exit for a pump cord, etc.

I have posted this same picture of my paludarium/aquarium set up so many times, everyone is probably sick of it, but it's worked so well as a combination vivarium/aquarium, I'll post it again for you in case it gives you any ideas. The separations between the land and aquarium are made from glass cut to fit and siliconed in. This tank is 135 gallons, though. It has mostly small algae eaters and various small tetras in it.

There are two waterfalls--one into the right hand pool and one into the lagoon in the middle. The water is recirulated by a pump on the left. The right pool is 12 inches deep, flows down over glass barriers to 10 in the long narrow section, then to 8 inches deep in the lagoon and narrow section to the pump. The slanted glass that you can see keeps the pump from emptying the fish sections just in case the water gets too low for some reason, i.e. waterfall or tubing leak. There are a lot more aquatic plants in it now.

One more thought about having a deep water pool-- be sure the frogs have an easy egress such as a log to land. While all darts can swim, they aren't really good at it, and may drown if they can't get a good purchase to get out. My galacs have fallen in several times that I've witnessed and they swim rapidly to shore--more like a dash than frog-swimming.

-----
Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

slaytonp Dec 20, 2004 05:52 PM

Here's another picture from the right end looking at the falls.

-----
Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

jonnyt21 Dec 20, 2004 06:08 PM

very nice setup u have there..whhat is the best substrate combo?
laer of gravel,then wire screen(s), layer dirt/soil, then moss? is that a good idea?

slaytonp Dec 20, 2004 07:42 PM

For just drainage, when I'm not making a false bottom, I like a 3 inch layer of gravel, mixed with activated charcoal, a screen such as a plastic garden weed inhibitor, maybe a layer of cocoanut fiber matting on that, then the substrate on top of that. I've used all kinds of substrates from organic compost, organic jungle mix to milled cocoanut fiber that I buy in bulk. (It's similar to Bed-a-beast, but not pressed into bricks.) I mix in brown sphagnum moss and use this around bromeliads. For the sides, I really like the pressed cocoas fiber panels, but they are extremely expensive, and I haven't been able to find them recently. I use a lot of cork bark on the backdrops and waterfalls. I buy most everything in bulk, because I'm usually one or two terrariums ahead of getting new frogs. Recently, I've been putting a heavy sprinkling of smooth small aquarium gravel over the substrate, then lacing this with cuttings from the Java moss that tends to overgrow my aquarium portion of the paludarium, but also grows well on land, covers the pebbles quickly, and also tends to climb the waterfalls on either side. I've tried other mosses, such as the "tropical moss," but these have never prospered for long, while the Java seems to grow under all light conditions, provided it is wet enough. Sometimes, this grows down into the pools and if I don't watch it, may clog the water pumps.

I don't "sterilize" the cork bark or any wood I use. I merely wash off the dirt and dust. So far, it has been more productive than a detriment to frog health. Some odd ferns, little mosses and other flora have cropped up.
-----
Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

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