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Anyone Want To Defend Calci-Sand?

kakadu Dec 18, 2004 08:25 PM

I have this person on another forum that is INSISTANT that many "Good breeders" have recommended calci-sand. He insists that because calcium carbonate is digestable, calcisand is digestable. He refuses to listen to arguments taht the calci-sand is roughly refined and does not come from the same sources or go through the same prossing as digestable sands. He insists it is safer. Of course he keeps asking for studies, be we all know that there is just no funding for studies like this to be done. And they certainly are not available in electronic form. THe only place I can find things like this is at the vet school library and it is mostly papers written by students in the vet program.

So, please, especially if you are a "good breeder" post how you feel about calci-sand. Even if you are not a breeder, please post what you have heard and any additional arguments against it.

Thanks for your time.

Kakadu
Jen
Kakadu Dragons

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Replies (42)

stilltraining Dec 18, 2004 09:33 PM

I'm not a breeder yet but....

I have already raised a bearded dragon on the calci-sand, and am currently raising two more with it. I've spoken to several people who have raised dragons, and the only ones who have done so with any success have used the calci-sand. All the petshops I've been to keep the beardies in setups that use calci-sand. All the breeders I have talked to have said the only bedding that is usable is calcisand.

Theres also the argument of their naturally enviroment.

If the sand is small enough, it should be digestable. If not all can be, what's left should be passable. As long as you keep greens in a small dish to reduce the risk of the dragon accidentally ingesting the sand, the few crystals that may be stuck to the crickets/accidentally grabbed with the crickets shouldn't pose a problem.

chris
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0.0.1 Senagel Chameleon-Bud
0.1.0 Red-tail Boa-Xena
0.1.0 Green Anaconda-Lola
1.0.1 Bearded Dragons-Ruff and Alexis
1.0.0 Ball Pythons-Donnie

Tracey Dec 18, 2004 10:30 PM

Do you want to list the breeders who recommend it? I know many, as I'm a breeder myself and I know no one who does....

Of course the petstores recommend it.....they sell it, and have limited knowledge about herps in most cases.....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com
"Whining is not only graceless, but can be dangerous.
It can alert a brute that a victim is in the neighborhood" ~Maya Angelou

stilltraining Dec 18, 2004 10:46 PM

Fire and Ice dragons uses the zoo-med repti sand with their dragons and reccomend it's use on their care sheet. A local breeder has it in his cages. All other dragon owners I've talked to have used it. Actually, not until coming onto this forum have I heard anything negative about it. Dirt, walnut, and repti-bark I have heard nothing but negative things about, but never using repti/calci-sand. As far as other breeders go...when reseaching my newest dragon I looked at a lot of sites and a lot of care sheets, and can't remember exactly which breeders do other than Fire and Ice.

Chris
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0.0.1 Senagel Chameleon-Bud
0.1.0 Red-tail Boa-Xena
0.1.0 Green Anaconda-Lola
1.0.1 Bearded Dragons-Ruff and Alexis
1.0.0 Ball Pythons-Donnie

CheriS Dec 18, 2004 11:40 PM

At least on a recent forum post she states differently now, she states theyuse papertowels now for hatchlings and has always used paper towels for adults. The only reason she states they did no use papertowels for babies was that the 1/4 inch circkets they put in the bin with the babies hid under the towels, but they solved that so they use paper towels now. This was posted last month on a UK site.

its about 1/3 of the way down.....
www.livefoodshop.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=18436&st=300

She still does say that on her site, so who knows for sure
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www.reptilerooms.com

heartmountain Dec 18, 2004 11:44 PM

LMAO, Terri uses it ???? I've never heard any reputable breeder or knowlegable person recomend the stuff. It is the worst crap on the market, right up their with heat rocks. It doesn't digest, turns gummy and balls up then to cement and causes an impaction.

Sean
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Heart Mountain Herps

Wake42 Dec 19, 2004 12:08 AM

it does say on her website that she uses "Repti Sand from Zoo Med exclusivly, and that other types of sand have been found to cause impaction" this was my original choice for a substrate bc i read it there, then you guys changed my mind idk, is repti sand any different than calci sand? or is it still the same thing?

what changed my mind was that someone said, even if it doesnt, why would you try it and run the risk when your dealing with a creature you love so much? i mean its still not as easy to clean as shelf liner and with even the risk it makes more sense just to stay away in my mind.

Pat

cricketscritters Dec 19, 2004 06:53 AM

I don't use or recommend it. If you want to take chances, fine. But please don't encourage others to do the same with theirs.
My $.02,
Cricket

CheriS Dec 18, 2004 09:53 PM

There have been a few studies done
coloherp.org/cb-news/archive/vet-med/CalciSand.php

I thought this one interesting, considering one of the liguids he used to test the ability to disolve it was a Hydrochloric acid that has a ph 5 times that of a bearded dragons digestive system... and it still did not break down! That is kind of impacting.. lol literally!
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www.reptilerooms.com

lizardfan Dec 18, 2004 10:19 PM

My beardie eats that stuff like it's dinner, regardless of whether I put mounds of food in front of her or not. I wouldn't recommend it. Then again, my beardie's a bit of a freak and that's why I love her!

Tracey Dec 18, 2004 10:28 PM

Well, tell them to add water to the calci-sand and see what happens....balls up and gets hard as a rock like cement....let's see cement in the digestive system = blockage....hmmmm.....sounds pretty unsafe to me

I've also talked to several people who's dragons died and the necropsy showed their digestive system was full of the rock hard calci-sand....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com
"Whining is not only graceless, but can be dangerous.
It can alert a brute that a victim is in the neighborhood" ~Maya Angelou

RaderRVT Dec 18, 2004 11:02 PM

The last three dead leopard geckos I have seen at work (veterinary hospital) have all had digestive tracts full of Calci-sand.
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Stacey

beardiedragon Dec 19, 2004 07:58 AM

I talked to the zoo med folks at Daytona this year about the calci sand issue. They admit that it can pose a potential problem and have put warning labels on the product (kinda like cigaretts). Some folks will buy it no matter what. The guy there told me that they make it because there is a demand for it. go figure....
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Bennett


beardiedragon.com
Home of the Florida Orange

CheriS Dec 19, 2004 10:25 AM

Bennett,

Remember there was a breeder that sold sick dragons...... even after he knew they were sick, because there was a demand.

For some it's just about the money!

We talked to Zoo-Med also at Daytona, and was told the same thing. The man was very factual that they are very aware there are impaction issues, expecially in small beardies, Uro's and gecko. If the company admits it..... makes you wonder why others not only use it, but defend it!!
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www.reptilerooms.com

stilltraining Dec 19, 2004 10:48 AM

My comments were not meant to defend anything or anybody. I was simply stating personal experiance and what I've heard from others. It appears that there is no good substrate to use though, so until I see my beardies ingest an unhealthy amount of it I'll be using it. It just appears to me to be the best of the worst.

Chris
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0.0.1 Senagel Chameleon-Bud
0.1.0 Red-tail Boa-Xena
0.1.0 Green Anaconda-Lola
1.0.1 Bearded Dragons-Ruff and Alexis
1.0.0 Ball Pythons-Donnie

CheriS Dec 19, 2004 11:04 AM

No one is offended by your choice or experience, its your choice. We just do not understand why when the company themselves acknowledges impaction problems, the Breeder who recommeneded it, but now has changed what she says she does.. (thats okay, she was new to bearded dragons too when she recommened that last year) someone would continue to choose to use it on babies

This is on Zoo_med site about helpful hints with repti sand:
Provide a dish of vitamin/calcium powder (i.e. Zoo Medís Reptivite) to prevent overconsumption of sand in many gecko species.

On their Vita Sand they have this:
Ultra fine grade to help prevent impaction from overconsumption NOTE: to help prevent impaction from overconsumption

Now, why do you think they have that there? Because its known they eat the substrate and have impaction issue!

There really is not debate, the makers acknowledge there are problems with it... but they are going to sell it if people want to buy it. It's a consumer choice
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www.reptilerooms.com

Sekhautet Dec 23, 2004 08:05 PM

Providing other calcium/vitamin powders. This is a ridiculous comment by the company. Animals can get sick from overdosing on such things, just as sick as with a deficiency.

Beardie_Matt Dec 19, 2004 12:06 PM

Shelf liner(my favorite), paper towels and newspaper are safe. If your beardie(s) run around alot shelf liner would be the best option because the paper towels and newspaper slide around. I find it surprising that you would choose calci-sand with all the risks that have been adressed and it's expensive.
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1.0 Bearded Dragons Spike
2.1 Cats Bilbo, Bud, Cleo

Matt

stilltraining Dec 19, 2004 12:40 PM

Price isn't really an issue for me...I got a 25lb back of repti-sand for $20, and it lasts quite a while in the cage I have my babies in. My problem with shelf liner, newspaper, and such as that is that I like to keep my enviroments as natural as possible. I will admit, that the sand I am using now, upon closer inspection,is not something I'm willing to risk. It's the ESU Reptile sand, and I will be switching to the zoo-med. I haven't noticed my dragons ingesting more than a grain or 2 since I got them (one on monday, the other on friday), so the size of the zoo-med should work fine. I keep a very watchful eye on them right now (for domination, hydration, ect), and will be watching their sand intake very closely. If the time comes when I notice them eating more than a minimal amount, I'll be taking the sand out immediately.

Chris
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0.0.1 Senagel Chameleon-Bud
0.1.0 Red-tail Boa-Xena
0.1.0 Green Anaconda-Lola
1.0.1 Bearded Dragons-Ruff and Alexis
1.0.0 Ball Pythons-Donnie

BigFil Dec 19, 2004 01:01 PM

I understand wanting to keep your habitat natural looking so why not use something natural like washed playsand. It is much cheaper, 12 bucks for 50lbs, looks more natural, is safer than calci-sand, is not dusty, and does not have a smell to it. I used calci/vita-sand when I got my first BD from the pet store until I learned more about it. Please keep in mind that playsand is less risky than calcium based substrates it is still riskier than shelf liner. I only used sand because my BD's were fed in seperate bins (on shelf liner) and did not have a fascination with licking everything in sight, some do.

beardiedragon Dec 19, 2004 01:50 PM

playsand her is uner $3 for a 50 lb bag
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Bennett


beardiedragon.com
Home of the Florida Orange

draybar Dec 19, 2004 02:34 PM

>>playsand her is uner $3 for a 50 lb bag
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>>Bennett
>>
>>

It was $2.69 for a 50lb bag. Lowes


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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

RaderRVT Dec 19, 2004 06:54 PM


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Stacey

kephy Dec 19, 2004 01:40 PM

When it comes to what is "natural" VS what is proven safe, I'll choose what is safe. And guess what? The beardies could honestly care less.
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
1.0 pictus gecko (Nicodemus)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
0.0.1 tarantula (Calcifer)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

dmlove Dec 19, 2004 02:29 PM

Well first I wish to say that I do not use calci/repti sand and never will, paper towels and shelfliner are good for me. Possibly washed playsand for adults only.

Stilltraining - I am not by any means condemning your choice, as you can do as you wish, but if you wanted to keep the cage as natural as possibly, then why dont you take a gander at the environment that the beardies live in in the outback. It is most a mix between small grasses, dirt, mulch, and a little bit of finely grained sand. By no means is it all sand, or in this case red/blue/white/yellow/whatever color repti/calci sand.

Just my thoughts.

David - KDRKreatures

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KDRKreatures.com
Exotic Reptile Breeders - Specializing in Bearded Dragons

Email

dennis2704 Dec 19, 2004 03:26 PM

you're also wrong...they inhabit shrub land as well as pure desert areas...ive researched it and have witnessed it first hand...and last time i looked my bd has injested sand and has passed it directly through him...if your husbandry is correct sand is not a real health issue..with the exception of calcisand

-ryan- Dec 19, 2004 03:54 PM

Usually, wild beardies prefer to stay away from sandy areas. They are not adapted to survive in an area that's pure sand. I used to use sand and my beardie seemed miserable. I'm not saying it's a bad idea all together to use sand, but I'm just going by what works.

So when I get my new cages done, I'm going to do something more natural, dirt. A bag of organic topsoil mixed with about 1/3 bag of playsand. This is what I use for my uromastyx, and she loves it (especially since uros are a burrowing species). I might even go a step further and start growing small patches of grass in there too. I was thinking about doing that with the mali tank, but she eats anything that's green, and I'm pretty sure she would eat the seeds too before they got a chance to grow.

It's all a matter of making your choice. Dirt isn't a widely used substrate, and I'm starting to wonder, why not? So I'm going to give it a go. I think mainly people like being able to just pick up a bag of substrate at the local home depot or pet shop, and being able to just poor it right in (you have to mix the dirt with the sand first). I think they probably also think it will be messy. No dirt has stuck to my uro so far, and it's easier to clean than sand ever was. Any liquid is sucked to the bottom, and the dried pellets lift easily off the top. Here's a pick of my uro's tank. I've since changed it, and yes, she is getting a new, big tank too.

dennis2704 Dec 19, 2004 04:56 PM

that sounds like a good idea...is it hard to clean?and what is your exact mixture and what kind of soil do you use...thanks

dennis2704 Dec 19, 2004 04:58 PM

oh also how do you keep the bottom clean when the wet stuff gets sucked down?

-ryan- Dec 19, 2004 07:26 PM

Well, the recipe I base mine around is one that's meant for monitors. The original recipe is 50% organic topsoil (it comes in like 40 pound bags at homedepot), 25% silica free playsand, and 25% vermiculite. I keep the vermiculite out because uromastyx and beardies tend to be very inquisitive creatures and I'm worried they might try to eat some of it. Vermiculite is only really necessary when you have 18" or more of soil and a full burrowing setup (it helps hold the burrows). For my purposes I need only a thin layer of it for substrate, so I mix just about 1 part sand to 3 or 4 parts organic topsoil At first it seems sort of dark if you're used to white or tan substrates, but you sort of learn to love the darker earthy color after a day or two. If you really don't like it too dark you can add in some more sand and it will lighten up a bit.

Also, you have to water it every few days or else it dries out and turns to dust. If you're using a wooden cage you have to make a liner for it. For my new cages I'm going to make a really thick nice liner out of some shelfliner. The first few layers I'm going to duct tape at all of the seems to really make it waterproof, and then the last layer I'm going to just set over it so the lizards can't get to the duct tape. I want it to be basically a completely waterproof, indestructable liner, so I don't have to change it all of the time.

As for cleaning, I haven't had to clean too much because my uro tends to save her poo until she comes out into my room (which is why there's constantly newpapers and towels around my room), but basically all of the water from the crap is either evaporated (as in any cage) and some of it will go into the dirt, but it's dirt, and even when lots of liquid is released (like with a uro), it just absorbs it to the bottom and for some reason doesn't smell or anything. I think maybe there's good bacteria in the dirt that helps keep it clean. I've had this batch of dirt in there for about 6 monthes or more, and it will remain there until I get the new cages, and even then, I'll transfer probably all of it into the new cage to be mixed with a fresh batch. It just doesn't go bad like other substrates. The only time you have to replace it is if it starts to smell or something, but even though it's been in there so long, it's still just the same as when I put it in there.

I think maybe adding water to it has something to do with it, because the water evaporates after a couple of days (which is why you have to continuously water it), so I think maybe it's taking any nasty stuff with it. I guess that's probably how the bottom of the tank stays clean.

It seems like a good natural solution, and one that some people seem to overlook. I think even lizards that are built to live in sand could probably do well on a soil. I mean, if you don't water it for a while, it basically turns into sand, and it's more natural looking than just straight up sand, you know what I mean? The only downside is that it has rocks in it, so with some species you have to be careful about that, but my uro has never tried to eat them or anything, and I don't think the beardie would either. I think I would actually feel fairly confident feeding my beardie insects on this stuff too. It doens't stick to the crickets like sand does, and I would think that it would pass much easier than sand or another dry substrate.

stilltraining Dec 19, 2004 07:30 PM

Well, first, as my name implies, I am "still training". I have a love of reptiles, and am hoping to breed them (starting with bearded dragons) very soon. I consider snakes my best area, and even there I still need a lot of work.

For those of you who handled this thread/debate in an adult, mature fashion...thank you for showing it's possible in today's world. As I stated in my last post, I will be changing the current sand to something finer. Also, I'm going to do more research on their natural habitat and probly switch to the sand/dirt mixture that some have stated.

Chris
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0.0.1 Senagel Chameleon-Bud
0.1.0 Red-tail Boa-Xena
0.1.0 Green Anaconda-Lola
1.0.1 Bearded Dragons-Ruff and Alexis
1.0.0 Ball Pythons-Donnie

dmlove Dec 19, 2004 07:47 PM

I am sorry if I came out immature by any means, if I did I am truly sorry. Substrate issues have been a hot topic on this forum as on many others for some time, and it hits a short nerve for me. Good luck with whatever you choose, and if you do use that dirt mixture, let us/me know how it goes, as that would be a pretty neat thing to switch to if it is indeed safe or they do enjoy it. Thanks for understanding, hope all goes well.

David

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KDRKreatures.com
Exotic Reptile Breeders - Specializing in Bearded Dragons

Email

stilltraining Dec 19, 2004 09:46 PM

I'll definately be sure to post my results on the sand/dirt mixture. I'm going to start building custom enclosures for my upcoming collection/breeders, and if the two I have now enjoy it, it'll be going in all my cages.

off topic, but where can I get a lot of info on breeding? i.e., incubators, selective breeding, ect

Chris
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0.0.1 Senagel Chameleon-Bud
0.1.0 Red-tail Boa-Xena
0.1.0 Green Anaconda-Lola
1.0.1 Bearded Dragons-Ruff and Alexis
1.0.0 Ball Pythons-Donnie

-ryan- Dec 20, 2004 09:57 PM

work with the dirt mixture though first. Figure out how much water you need to add to it every couple of days to keep it a fairly solid surface. you don't want to put the dragon on it before you understand how it uses water and whatnot. Also, the soil you use should either be organic topsoil (not potting soil!), or something dug up locally. I've also heard you can find some pretty nice soils at landscapers and stuff.

But work with it before you put a live animal on it. Just put it in a big rubbermaid box and get an extra heat lamp to go over it to see how it reacts to the heat and everything. You also need to make sure you get the right mixture for the right consistency. It should be about 1 part sand to 3 or 4 parts dirt. I think 4 parts dirt is probably going to be the better bet. At least then if you need to you can add more sand now and then. From what I hear, beardies also like to dig in the soil, so you can put stuff like cork bark slabs or a piece of plywood for the beardie to try to burrow on it.

ALSO...IMPORTANT. Since you are still new, and I'm assuming you have a young dragon, for now I would keep it on paper towels or something like that, especially because there's a better chance of the beardie having parasite problems right now. In the long run, I think a lot of people are going to realize that dirt has great applications for many species of lizard and snakes, as well as tortoises, etc (they that is already known).

stilltraining Dec 20, 2004 10:26 PM

Thanx for the advice, but dirt I'm ok with. I have a redtail boa, ball python, and green anaconda that I use dirt for so I'm used to having to moisten the ground and such. For some reason, it just never seemed to make much sense to me to use it for beardies too. Ah well, you live you learn right?

Chris
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0.0.1 Senagel Chameleon-Bud
0.1.0 Red-tail Boa-Xena
0.1.0 Green Anaconda-Lola
1.0.1 Bearded Dragons-Ruff and Alexis
1.0.0 Ball Pythons-Donnie

-ryan- Dec 19, 2004 10:12 PM

when any of you do decide to try it, start by just getting some and putting it in a big plastic container. Work with the mixture and add water to it to figure out what it takes to get it just right. It's not as complicated as getting a mixture setup for a full burrowing setup, but still, you have to get to know how the dirt works before you just throw it into a tank.

As I said, I've been using it for a while now with my uromastyx with success, and once the new cages are done, I intend to put my beardie on it as well. When working with a new element like that it is very important to keep everything else optimal, like temperatures. That's why I'll probably be employing the retes stack (another thing that the monitor keepers came up with). This type of basking site (which I am using with my uro right now) makes it much easier to get the right temps and everything. You need higher temps, you throw another level on. You need lower temps, you take one off. I think when I make new ones I'm going to make them so they sort of fit together, so that the lizards don't accidently topple them.

I'll keep everyone updated once I do get this going.

dennis2704 Dec 19, 2004 03:21 PM

not true...paper towels and newspaper can cause just as many impactions as calci sand...but yes calci sand is bad and no reptisand and calcisand are not the same repti sand is natural sand

dmlove Dec 19, 2004 05:49 PM

>>not true...paper towels and newspaper can cause just as many impactions as calci sand...but yes calci sand is bad and no reptisand and calcisand are not the same repti sand is natural sand

Im sorry but I had to come in here. Granted, paper towels and newspaper can cause just as bad of an impaction as and calci sand, but seriosly. When a dragon gets paper towel or newspaper in its mouth, they spit it out. They understand it is not food. When calcisand is stuck onto the prey item, they do not know that the sand is not supposed to be on there. Sand is the more likely contendor to be ingested, therefore it IS more dangerous. And I have been to the outback as well, where the vitticeps are, and it is mostly a dirt mix. It is not sandy, but more dirt and shrubs. You may have seen a barbata on the sand, but that is not the subspecies we are discussing.

David - KDRKreatures
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KDRKreatures.com
Exotic Reptile Breeders - Specializing in Bearded Dragons

Email

RaderRVT Dec 19, 2004 06:59 PM

I have worked in veterinary medicine for 12 years and I have yet to see a newspaper or paper towel impaction. You would have to shred the stuff for them to ingest it! My two cents.
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Stacey

dennis2704 Dec 19, 2004 07:14 PM

oh you mean shred it by hm biting it or running across it ripping it with their claws?...ive seen quite a few here in wi and have called quite a few herp vets here and they rec. playsand...and if you read my post properly...it says its just as bad as sand with the exception of calcisand being worse

dmlove Dec 19, 2004 07:43 PM

Im sorry, but you are wrong here. They dont just eat it! They spit it out, there has never been a documented case of impaction by PAPER TOWELS! There have been MANY from playsand and calcisand both! Playsand is the better out of the two because it clumps less. Paper towels is safe! That is like saying that pencils are just as bad as knives when given to little kids because it can just as easily stab into them. It just isnt probable.

David
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KDRKreatures.com
Exotic Reptile Breeders - Specializing in Bearded Dragons

Email

Kakadu Dec 20, 2004 01:18 AM

Thanks
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Sekhautet Dec 22, 2004 10:04 PM

HI,

I raised my little beardie on calci-sand and he's 2 now. My vet said that you have to watch out for the ground walnut shells because they are sharp and not digestible. The calci-sand, as long as not ingested in large amounts is great for Beardies. It's digestible, but you have to watch that you change their water source regularly, because it can clump in there when they run through it. I know, my Tatsu, does it all the time! I've never had a problem with the sand.

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