Reptile & Amphibian Forums

...This time of year there are lots of posts here, even more on some other forums about breeding snakes. People are asking about cooling and photo periods and other breeding issues and are getting lots of different and usually good answers. Some of the answers, especially on a certain other forum are really bad. I just hope that everyone does not think that breeding boids is easy. Some people can do it and some people have tried for years without success. We seem to know enough about reptile husbandry to keep snakes healthy long term in captivity. There is still a bunch that we do not know about breeding boids. I do know that breeding is stressful. I have no health problems with my snakes until I am trying to get them to breed or they are gravid or delivering. If I was as attached to any of my snakes as I am to my dog I would never breed them. There is a great sense of accomplishment when you look into a cage and see a big pile of babies but there are also lots of stressful days along the way to that event.
Jeff

Interesting topic...and important. You don't see subjects like this very often on any of the forums. Frankly, I would prefer to see more of this, and less of ..."here is my new "Hypo-Hog-Guyanna cross from So-and-So. Not that a little showing off is a bad thing, I like the pretties as much as anyone...but these discussion boards IMO should also be a vehicle to ask the tough questions.

So, anyways....breeding and keeping snakes. The longer I do this, the more it has become true to me that we are not doing these animals any favors by keeping them. They are prisoners. Weather or not we want to admit it, we are keeping them against their will. They are not happy to see us....they are trained to tolerate us. They are not companions, they are captives. Some adjust to captive life better than others. There are those of us that keep up the with the illusion that we are making the world a better place somehow...some use terms like "conservation through captive propagation....," to justify the ends..... Some days, like today, I feel very selfish for putting a 6ft snake in a 4ft cage with only hide box and a water dish....not exactly the environment it would choose for itself I imagine.

So...the longer I do this, the more I start to question the way I do things. Breeding for example- I am beginning to think that most boids breed IN SPITE of being cooled, not because they are cooled. I cooled some of my boids this year...but this was the last year. I think Jeff is right. I never have health problems with any of my animals until I start trying to breed them (or if I happen to purchase a health problem, which I have. I am willing to drop night time temps a little...but I keep heat on them, and continue to feed them until they don't want to eat any more. To be honest, I've seen as much breeding activity from my animals that have not been cooled as I have from the one that have been. I saw strategic tail alignment with a pair of my Brazilians (not cooled) two nights ago...Argentines off and on...they were cooled for 8 weeks, I have a gravid bci right now...the two males I used and the now gravid female were NOT cooled...It is also my experience, that female boids WILL eat if given the choice through MOST of their term....and MOST males WILL eat sporatically during breeding season....many people simple don't give them the choice once they refuse one or two meals. I've seen a small meal invigorate a males breeding determination....sometimes they need a break.

There are a lot of things that can go wrong breeding snakes, I think cooling is a risk I am going to try to do without. The rest of it...well, selfishly I am not willing to stop keeping or breeding boids, because I love it...and it IS what I want to do for a living...for no other reason than it would mean I would have more time to play with snakes. That's the bottom line for me. Playing with snakes...and along the way, I'll try to make the experience for my captives as comfortable as possible.

Thank you, and good morning.
Chris O
P.s. Here is an argentine boa....

>>>>>...This time of year there are lots of posts here, even more on some other forums about breeding snakes. People are asking about cooling and photo periods and other breeding issues and are getting lots of different and usually good answers. Some of the answers, especially on a certain other forum are really bad. I just hope that everyone does not think that breeding boids is easy. Some people can do it and some people have tried for years without success. We seem to know enough about reptile husbandry to keep snakes healthy long term in captivity. There is still a bunch that we do not know about breeding boids. I do know that breeding is stressful. I have no health problems with my snakes until I am trying to get them to breed or they are gravid or delivering. If I was as attached to any of my snakes as I am to my dog I would never breed them. There is a great sense of accomplishment when you look into a cage and see a big pile of babies but there are also lots of stressful days along the way to that event.
Jeff

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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

Over feeding....
Some really smart people have brought this up recently the boa forum, and I just want to say....there are two reasons to over feed a boid, and neither of them are good reasons. Ignorance and greed.
Good Morning. Chris O
BTW- Jeff...hope you don't mind....I copied your post with my response over on the boa forum....I just think topics like this deserve more viewers....
Here is a picture of a really odd hypo bci....

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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

Hello Chris, I may be premature in writing this now before I read the thread, but you must be more careful in saying what you are saying, please. I read your post and frankly I thought you turned to the dark side....the animal rights side. These people read these boards and they use what we say against us. Your post sounds like we need to let all our snakes go and stop keeping them. I am trying to understand what you ment by all this...I am trying to think it was just a promo for good or better husbandry, but it does sound slanted. I think the snakes we keep only know what we have them know. They have no longing desire to be back in the wild, and are perfectly content living in the perfect environment we give them. Fresh clean water dry clean bedding and perfect humidity...etc...this makes for the happy boa..... On another note, I will add that, I personally have never believed in cooling any snake for breeding...at least not in the way I have been told it should be done. I see advertisements for snakes cooled and ready to go, and I skip right over them. I think it is un-necessary. I do believe in a more controlled temp drop but in the mid 70's is all I have seen needed to induce breeding....and the hot spots are still available. I have heard people say they have to be cooled, I just plain do not agree. Please just make sure your statements cannot be used against us in this fight against the animal rights groups. They have allready prevailed here in NY state to some extent. We can no longer keep burmese, retics, or any large monitors, that is unless you want these people checking you out from time to time and $80 permit fee per animal per year. Sorry about the long post. Andy Federico

Andy, I appreciate what you are saying and I certainly don’t want to see more regulation around keeping these animals. I also agree that these animals are probably very content in the environments we provide them. But this is a forum and we should be allowed to address these issues. People who are new to keeping herps must realize the long term commitments involved. When you end up with a snake, you are potentially in for a 30-year commitment. Weather or not your desire last this long. The permits and the regulations and the laws are not the result of discussion on forums. They are result of uninformed, irresponsible keepers (and releasers, it is no secret what is happening in Florida).

Mike

come from irresponible behavior and ignorance...not discussion.
Chris O
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

Well Chris I think captive propagation is a really good method to save wild animals, a lot of people are starting to buy captive animals instead of wildcaught or imported, and thats is the best thing that could happen to them, but of course there is the other side that i think is not good for the species that is the mixing of subspecies without any control, at least we should have some kind of registration to know to the origin of the snake we are buying, i have been thinking in buying some hogg but how i could know they are pure Hogg Island?.

Chris I think you start that treat humannzing snakes( I hope you understand what I'm triyng to said with that ) the snakes that we keep in racks, shoeboxes or any other cages are not thinking in going back to the forest or missing their habitat, snakes as we all know are really primitive animals that response on some stimulates, I think if you keep your snake on the right temp and humidity, they are going to be happy, eat with not problem and reproduce, you can not induce any animal to reproduce if they are stress or kept in the wrong condition, i do not know about you guys but I used to keep my snakes in big enclosure with sand, plant, rocks. the only one happy about that was me because it was nice to see, my snakes alway stayed in the same corner the hottest one under a piece of plastic. just my 2 cents in my really primitive english hahahaha

>>Well Chris I think captive propagation is a really good method to save wild animals, a lot of people are starting to buy captive animals instead of wildcaught or imported, and thats is the best thing that could happen to them, but of course there is the other side that i think is not good for the species that is the mixing of subspecies without any control, at least we should have some kind of registration to know to the origin of the snake we are buying, i have been thinking in buying some hogg but how i could know they are pure Hogg Island?.
>>
>> Chris I think you start that treat humannzing snakes( I hope you understand what I'm triyng to said with that ) the snakes that we keep in racks, shoeboxes or any other cages are not thinking in going back to the forest or missing their habitat, snakes as we all know are really primitive animals that response on some stimulates, I think if you keep your snake on the right temp and humidity, they are going to be happy, eat with not problem and reproduce, you can not induce any animal to reproduce if they are stress or kept in the wrong condition, i do not know about you guys but I used to keep my snakes in big enclosure with sand, plant, rocks. the only one happy about that was me because it was nice to see, my snakes alway stayed in the same corner the hottest one under a piece of plastic. just my 2 cents in my really primitive english hahahaha

I can understand you just fine, in fact your English is better than some people born here!

Linda

Since I have only had BRB's breed twice and have never kept one to it's naturally demise, I am somewhat making up my opinions as I go along. Certainly finding a gooey blob of babies is awesome experience to say the least, and knowing that I somehow had a hand in it is a wonderful thought. The whole experience from 2 snakes to a litter of wiggly pigglies is so great that I want to do it again. I can only imagine just how taxing this is on the Mom. It's fascinating to me to see firsthand how a creature can produce offspring from basically her own reserves. Mammals don't do that....and can't do that. Primarily all the essentials come from a female that doesn't take in any nutrients during gestation to produce an abundance of babies. Most creatures including humans have to eat much more to supply the growing embyos. This is even more dramatic with lactation. Pretty darn amazing to me. The whole life cycle of snakes seems to be fundamentally primate. Grow up, produce offspring, and die. In a natural situation, any reptile that is mature enough to breed and lives a year or 2 after that point is worthy of admiration for it's adaptive skills. Snakes were made to reproduce, IMO, and only because of captivity do we even have an accurate idea of how long they can live.

My reply is late, and I've had the opportunity to read other's thoughts. I actually don't know if anyone got the point of the intial "observations". I have to agree that if my snakes were as beloved as my more traditional companion animals there would never have been an attempt at breeding. I read people's opinions on how much their reptile meant to them upon loss, and although I am sorry for their loss, I cannot comprehend the attachment to a snake.

That is one thing I love about my snakes-they don't require emotional involvement on the level of love. They require food, shelter, and warmth. Very simple requirements.

Breeding for me is a debatable subject in my mind and heart. I have evolved a mindset that basically tells me unless I can be responsible for what I bring into this world thoughtout it's entire natural life I shouldn't do it. My principles are greatly comprimized in this area in regards to what I am doing with or to the snakes. These ideals bother me at times, and I will admit I have been somewaht money driven. The check I first received (that didn't bounce) for selling my first litter got my greed going. It paid for all the money I had spent in the past year on the snakes. my goals are to breed and sell offspring in amounts that will basically make this hobby pay for itself. In that matter I can justify some of the reasons I enjoy snakes. Don't get me wrong...I enjoy them. If I wanted to make money off them I think I'd look into something other than BRB's. I sure like those sunglows.....daydreaming.....