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Rainbow boa forum)
I wanted to share this because I think this is a good topic, and I would like to see some activity around it...the rainbow forum doesn't get as much traffic. I copied Jeff's original post at the bottom of my post...and included a picture of a male Argentine Occidentalis for your viewing pleasure. If you like discussing Boid husbandry, by the way, you would really enjoy the Rainbow forum....it dominates the posts over there.

>>Interesting topic...and important. You don't see subjects like this very often on any of the forums. Frankly, I would prefer to see more of this, and less of ..."here is my new "Hypo-Hog-Guyanna cross from So-and-So. Not that a little showing off is a bad thing, I like the pretties as much as anyone...but these discussion boards IMO should also be a vehicle to ask the tough questions as well as posting and viewing beautiful animals.

So, anyways....breeding and keeping snakes. The longer I do this, the more it has become true to me that we are not doing these animals any favors by keeping them. They are prisoners. Weather or not we want to admit it, we are keeping them against their will. They are not happy to see us....they are trained to tolerate us. They are not companions, they are captives. Some adjust to captive life better than others. There are those of us that keep up the with the illusion that we are making the world a better place somehow...some use terms like "conservation through captive propagation....," to justify the ends..... Some days, like today, I feel very selfish for putting a 6ft snake in a 4ft cage with only hide box and a water dish....not exactly the environment it would choose for itself I imagine.

So...the longer I do this, the more I start to question the way I do things. Breeding for example- I am beginning to think that most boids breed IN SPITE of being cooled, not because they are cooled. I cooled some of my boids this year...but this was the last year. I think Jeff is right. I never have health problems with any of my animals until I start trying to breed them (or if I happen to purchase a health problem, which I have. I am willing to drop night time temps a little...but I keep heat on them, and continue to feed them until they don't want to eat any more. To be honest, I've seen as much breeding activity from my animals that have not been cooled as I have from the one that have been. I saw strategic tail alignment with a pair of my Brazilians (not cooled) two nights ago...Argentines off and on...they were cooled for 8 weeks, I have a gravid bci right now...the two males I used and the now gravid female were NOT cooled...It is also my experience, that female boids WILL eat if given the choice through MOST of their term....and MOST males WILL eat sporatically during breeding season....many people simple don't give them the choice once they refuse one or two meals. I've seen a small meal invigorate a males breeding determination....sometimes they need a break.

There are a lot of things that can go wrong breeding snakes, I think cooling is a risk I am going to try to do without. The rest of it...well, selfishly I am not willing to stop keeping or breeding boids, because I love it...and it IS what I want to do for a living...for no other reason than it would mean I would have more time to play with snakes. That's the bottom line for me. Playing with snakes...and along the way, I'll try to make the experience for my captives as comfortable as possible.

Thank you, and good morning.
Chris O
P.s. Here is an argentine boa....

Jeff's original post.....
>>>>>...This time of year there are lots of posts here, even more on some other forums about breeding snakes. People are asking about cooling and photo periods and other breeding issues and are getting lots of different and usually good answers. Some of the answers, especially on a certain other forum are really bad. I just hope that everyone does not think that breeding boids is easy. Some people can do it and some people have tried for years without success. We seem to know enough about reptile husbandry to keep snakes healthy long term in captivity. There is still a bunch that we do not know about breeding boids. I do know that breeding is stressful. I have no health problems with my snakes until I am trying to get them to breed or they are gravid or delivering. If I was as attached to any of my snakes as I am to my dog I would never breed them. There is a great sense of accomplishment when you look into a cage and see a big pile of babies but there are also lots of stressful days along the way to that event.
Jeff

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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

Over feeding....
Some really smart people have brought this up recently on this forum, and I just want to say....there are two reasons to over feed a boid, and neither of them are good reasons. Ignorance and greed.
Good Morning. Chris O

Here is a picture of a really odd hypo....

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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

I had a really well prepared, and lengthy reply to this post almost finished, when I clicked on a link by accident and everything I had written was erased. All I can say now, is: that's a real pretty snake.
Here's mine.

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Jeremy J. Anderson
snakepimp.com
gemstatereptiles.com
Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
Are they using the beef to control your mind? That stuff in your cigarettes, your beer and the wine Is working its way, infiltrating your spine, Today is the day you should wake up and find That they’re using the beef to control your mind. --(excerpt from a musical I wrote...)

...
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

Thank you, and thanks for defending me on that "other" thread I started. Where do people get these ideas about what is meant?
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Jeremy J. Anderson
snakepimp.com
gemstatereptiles.com
Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
Are they using the beef to control your mind? That stuff in your cigarettes, your beer and the wine Is working its way, infiltrating your spine, Today is the day you should wake up and find That they’re using the beef to control your mind. --(excerpt from a musical I wrote...)

Hello Chris, I may be premature in writing this now before I read the thread, but you must be more careful in saying what you are saying, please. I read your post and frankly I thought you turned to the dark side....the animal rights side. These people read these boards and they use what we say against us. Your post sounds like we need to let all our snakes go and stop keeping them. I am trying to understand what you ment by all this...I am trying to think it was just a promo for good or better husbandry, but it does sound slanted. I think the snakes we keep only know what we have them know. They have no longing desire to be back in the wild, and are perfectly content living in the perfect environment we give them. Fresh clean water dry clean bedding and perfect humidity...etc...this makes for the happy boa..... On another note, I will add that, I personally have never believed in cooling any snake for breeding...at least not in the way I have been told it should be done. I see advertisements for snakes cooled and ready to go, and I skip right over them. I think it is un-necessary. I do believe in a more controlled temp drop but in the mid 70's is all I have seen needed to induce breeding....and the hot spots are still available. I have heard people say they have to be cooled, I just plain do not agree. Please just make sure your statements cannot be used against us in this fight against the animal rights groups. They have allready prevailed here in NY state to some extent. We can no longer keep burmese, retics, or any large monitors, that is unless you want these people checking you out from time to time and $80 permit fee per animal per year. Sorry about the long post. Andy Federico

are formed as the result of irresponsible behavior on the part of keepers and ignorance on the part of non-keepers....not discussion.
Thanks for your 2 cents, Chris O

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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

You need to know who you are up agaist if you are going to fight to keep dumb laws from being passed. The fact that it was larger snakes and venomous ones that were banned suggests that fear for human safty was the motive for the law. Animal rights groups get laws passed to protect animals not people. NY's law is born from public perception that snakes are deadly.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, its not a "bad" law. How many people get sucked into buying a burm or retic from some guilt-less pet store only to find a 15 foot monster in a few years. Sad part is, most people are irresponsible when it comes to their animals, not just snakes. Like people that go and purchase bigger breeds of dogs, only to find out that training a big rottie is a lot different than dealing with a tea-cup poodle.

While I admire Burms and Retics for their beauty, I won't own one anytime soon, due to not having the space or the cash to feed a big monster like that. I just happen to be one of the few that actually researched my purchase before dropping a dime. Most "newbies" wouldn't, and would just buy the first one the pet store sells them.

And really, if your going to house Burms or Retics, is $80 per year that expensive to insure that people who are irresponsible with their animals, can not own these large sized snakes? Hope I didn't step on anyone's toes here, but that was my 2 cents worth!

Rob
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Saying the $80 yearly fee will keep people from owning big snakes is like saying you have to have a permit to own or carry a gun. Only the honest people will abide. People that break the law because they want to, with disregard for others, do not care if there is a law that says they cannot do something, they just want to do whatever they want to do.
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Guess What? I got a fever...and the only prescription is more cowbell!

I just don't totally agree with it. And, just to be blunt. I'm not trying to "attack" what you think.
I think my snakes are companions. Have they been trained to tolerate us? For the most part yes. But, as far as I am concerned with my animals....This training is only a short phased time period which beings once I own the animal. And, I feel, this "training" is true to life. When I initially meet someone...I can be pretty stand offish. I like to get a good sense of who and what they are before I will begin to trust them with anything. Isn't this what our animals go through? My thoughts are yes. Trust needs to be given freely by both parties. I have yet to have an animal that was "mean". Some needed to be worked with for sure....But, after a while, trust was built...And, relationship became a good one. (On a side note, this animal really became a "lap dog". But, whould huff and puff if anyone else came close.)

I "slightly" disagree with you about saving species. If I remember correctly, Argentines were pretty rare in the wild and in collections. Now, they have a presence. So much so that they go for aroung 125.00 each. (I never understood why they are priced so low.)
But, will these animals be able to be re-released into the wild. Nope.

I guess if we really think about it.....Humans really are just selfish animals. Most of us take, take, take. We consume way more then we really need. (I'm just as guilty as everyone else.)
What I find funny is....We will level a forested/natural area to build houses....And, then once the subdivision is complete...Replant the area so it has a "natural" feel to it. And, doesn't this follow into our lives? I surround myself with animals. I love them! We have fish, a hamster, a cat, and of course snakes. Do we do this have some "touch" with nature since we are distancing ourselves from it?

I agree with you about the tank size as well. It upsets me at times. My only recourse to this is a lot of handling time. I make sure my animals get out 1-2 times a week for exercise and "love". I LOVE to give my snakes love. I talk with them, tell them how handsome/beautiful they are. Heck, I'd even give them a kiss. But, I know what they crawl around in. LOL!

So, I guess I agree to disagree slightly.
This is a rambling from a tired coffee lacking snake owner. LOL!
Have a good Holiday,
John

>>So, anyways....breeding and keeping snakes. The longer I do this, the more it has become true to me that we are not doing these animals any favors by keeping them. They are prisoners. Weather or not we want to admit it, we are keeping them against their will. They are not happy to see us....they are trained to tolerate us. They are not companions, they are captives. Some adjust to captive life better than others. There are those of us that keep up the with the illusion that we are making the world a better place somehow...some use terms like "conservation through captive propagation....," to justify the ends..... Some days, like today, I feel very selfish for putting a 6ft snake in a 4ft cage with only hide box and a water dish....not exactly the environment it would choose for itself I imagine.>>
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

They probably are not responding, because I brought this subject up just a couple of weeks ago. I have been preaching this for years; " without much success. " Some of the words that you have used in your post, are exactly the ones that I have used. So, we are either " mentally linked " or you have read some of my posts over the years. At the sake of sounding like a broke record, I will repeat one of my beliefs; " Boas DO BREED despite and not inspite of what we do. " Alot of people, think that I use the word " EGO " too loosely on here, but I feel that it is the only explanation for some of peoples actions.If you breed 50 females and 10 of them drop babies, you may have a few hundred babies, but do not start thinking that you have " cracked the breeding code. " If 30 or more would have droped babies and you could repeat that percentage or close to it every time, then I would want to be the first in line to buy your new breeding book!People ask me all of the time, what I think it takes to breed boas? I tell them simply; "It takes a female and a male that wants to. Sounds pretty " scientific " does it not? The key to breeding, is simple; " What you take care of, will take care of you. " Do not feed them too often and raise them " SLOWLY " and keep fresh water every 48hrs and clean them as quickly as possible when they defecate or urate and exercise them and give them a good gradient of temperature. Pretty " common sense kind of stuff. " .......GOD BLESS...Johnson Herp

Maybe you helped shape my opinion on this....I think mostly I'm moving in this direction because, as I get older, I find myself in less of a hurry....I think right practices are more important than breeding "efficiency."

Chris O
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

I thank both of you for providing thoughtful and helpful info in boa husbandry. I know because of some earlier post by madisonrecords I am now aware of feeding my boas too much. And have modified their feeding schedules. I hope this will provide them with a healthier and longer life. What I am saying is, I like all the pics of all the beautiful boas and would not want that too stop. But I would also like too see more boa care posts.
Thanks,
Chuck

Well, all you have to do is look at the top and see what this forum was designed for? I also enjoy pictures from time to time, however " this has become a place for breeders to encourage the sell of their stock and for others to show of their new snake. " Do not get mad at me guys and gals. Once again, look at the top of the page and slowly read what it says.It is all in black and white.....GOD BLESS......Johnson Herp

Welcome to the Boa Forum. Here you may post messages or questions pertaining to all aspects and issues regarding the keeping, breeding, health, and conservation of all Boas.
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

I think some people have lost, or never had focus on the purpose of the forum....it is not a tool for advertisment....nor is it a tool for hacking up someone that's new to the hobby for not having all the right answers or knowing the right people. The people that feel that way should all find a sinking ship....
Chris O
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

EGO / GREED
Whats the difference ? nailed'em yet again.

I can't say I understand the mind of a snake well enough to know weather they really enjoy me as much as I enjoy them. I have had many animals that have learned to trust, and depend on me. I never knew a horse that really wanted to have someone ride it's back either, but have had many that loved to please me so much that they would give it their all. Not sure that any animal is best in the hands of humans, but it does, and will always happen. I have a few snakes that really seem to enjoy me as much as I enjoy them. Would they take off if given the chance? Sure, it's their nature! In the wild, snakes are killed off for millions of reasons. I can only hope that if others see how cool my snakes really are ( and they have ), then maybe not as many people will fear or kill snakes as much. Is this my reason for keeping snakes? No way, I just love them. We all make that choice of a dog, cat, snake, horse, ect, and one of my choices was snakes. Respect of life at every level is important, I try to do my best, and hope for the best. Sorry for the long post, but we are talking about my pets here Happy Holidays to Everyone and a Super New Year!