Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I live near Rochester New York, and I don't personally own any of the species that are being banned, because of parents and a lack of space/time, but I think it's sad that now my fate is locked in that I could never own a black throat or other large monitor, or large snake, even if I decided one day that I was responsible enough to keep it. They should have at least put a permit system in place, so you could purchase the animal(s) if you could pass a test or something, or had a certain level of experience with reptiles. Now, if you do have one or more of the animals being banned, you have to get an $80 permit every two years or something, which wouldn't be that bad, but you aren't allowed to breed them, and when the animal does die, you can never get another one in this state.

I personally think governor pataki is an idiot...I wouldn't tell him that, because then they would never listen to a word I or anyone else has said to them....like they ever actually listened in the first place...I've sent emails, tried calling people, all that stuff, and nothing. Not a single reply, they just don't care because it doesn't really affect them like it does to the people that actually have the reptiles. But apparently the governor also just passed a bill where if you get two speeding tickets or something like that, you have to pay a fine for three years. I can't remember exactly, but overall, it didn't make sense. I agree that something needs to be done to improve the streets, but two speeding tickets? New York is slowly becoming a very strict state. This reptile law is the most strict in the country.

I'm really sick and tired of everyone griping about this new ban. Ive been following the progress of this bill since it was introduced years ago. My only regret is that I didnt do more than write letters. We need to get out there and DO SOMETHING. Ive drafted a letter to my assemblyman, and if I dont get a reply, or the reply is not a co-operative one, I'm showing up at his office. basically this bill was not researched by tonko, or anyone who voted for it or signed it. I know because I talked to a couple of assemblymen recently, and they thought that the bill was unreasonable after I thoroughly explained its implications. especially with venomous reptiles, since there was already a permit system in place! since I dont keep large monitors,(just a timor) I dont have anything to worry there. However I am extremely ticked off about the venomous section of the bill. Instead of [bleep]ing I'm explaining to my assemblyman what the permit system was before, and how an ammendment that would revert the venomous rules back to the way they were, would be of benefit to everyone. I will go to every single assemblymans office in person, and explain the situation we are facing, until somebody helps. if nobody will, I'm going to the media to show how such a redundant law was passed, and how nobody is willing to try and fix it. However I'm not going up to bat for monitors. why? because thats not my agenda, and it would be a bad idea to try and fix this all at once. I dont have the time, energy, or arguments for monitors. You guys I suggest should follow suit. suggest a SOLUTION, and DONT GIVE UP. Those guys are paid to represent you, and if they are ignoring you they arent doing their jobs. show up at their offices, make an appointment to talk to them. BE PREPARED. these guys had no freaking clue what they were voting for, and if you politely suggest a reasonable and logical solution to the problem, they just might listen.
-----
- Happy herping!

KE

While I agree with you, I don't think you seem to understand my situation. I'm a 16 year old kid...I don't even have a car yet, and my parents, though supportive of the hobby, are not willing to take me to go talk to assemblymen. i think part of it is that they don't really care about the bill, and that's because it doesn't affect them. They don't understand the impact it will have though.

I'm not giving up on it all together, but it looks like we're losing the battle.

Also, I think that venomous isn't really the part of the bill that I would back, but it's your choice. If it means something to you go for it, but that's actually a part that I'm not very upset with. I was aware that there already were bills in place to keep them undercontrol. Besides, think of it this way, large constrictors, large monitors, and hell, even captive venomous snakes have realistically done nothing to threaten public safety in new york. This is just a bill to get more money, in my opinion, and originally I thought they had pissed of the wrong crowd, but I've noticed hardly anyone is fighting back. It's just sort of discouraging.

I dont think you understand my situation either. I'm a 17 year old girl with no car, and I'll find a way to get to the assemblymans office. this is exactly what I'm talking about, people love to whine and then not go out of their comfort zone to fight for their cause. I dont know why! But I did the same thing years before the bill passed. I was younger, I wrote a couple letters, and I assumed adults would do my work for me. Now I'm older, the bill is passed, and I know better, and I'm going way out of my way to protect my interests and the interests of my peers. I dont have anything venomous right now obviously, but I'm planning on learning the trade, and keeping something venomous in the future. I'd like to do that without having to jump through redundant hoops, like an exhibitors license, which I'd likely never get at this point. The reason I'm so adament about fixing the venomous situation is because there wasnt a problem, there already were regulations. Now breeders cant supply AZA zoos with some of the rare animals that could only found in the hands of private keepers, bushmasters for example. I talked to some assemblyman, and they were surprised that there were regulations already in place, and were even more surprised when they found out they did away with those regulations. these guys arent "against us" rather they are uninformed, and everyone in the herp community who didnt go talk to them is at fault. we cant loose a battle if we arent fighting it
-----
- Happy herping!

KE

okay, I understand, but it's not a matter of leaving my comfort zone...it's a matter of not being able to, unless I want to ride my bike there. I also have no clue where to go to either to voice my concerns with the new bill. I know you're really adament about doing away with this bill, as am I, but you don't need to jump all over someone because you don't think they're doing a good enough job at getting rid of the bill. Yes, I want it gone too, but there's a lot standing in my way. Besides not having a ride, my schedule is booked full till just about the end of the school year...that's what happens when you're a student, reptile owner, aspiring musician, and devoted boyfriend. Though I care a lot about getting rid of the bill, these all come first.

I was simply voicing my concerns with the bill. I've tried to voice my concern to others that could help get rid of this law, but it hasn't worked, and that's about as much as I can do right now. I'm glad you're out there trying to do something about it though.

well, it all depends what comes first in your life. My hobby, and potential career comes first. I'm not happy knowing that this bill happened because SOMEBODY was ignorant, and I was too lazy to inform them. With that in mind, being angry with myself, my peers, AND our lawmakers, I am going way out of my way to inform them, and suggest an ammendment. I am furious that I cant live in NYS if I want to breed palm vipers or large monitors because somebody was misinformed and made a redundant law. Ive been thrown out of NYS, essentially.

If I dont know who to talk to, I find out. if I dont know how to get to an office, I find out. whatever works I suppose.

you might not think it worth your while when weighed against other things in your life, to really try and fix this, but if nothing happens, will you be able to live with yourself knowing you didnt give it 150%? maybe not, maybe you wont mind moving elsewhere if you want a monitor, or you will be happy never owning a monitor in NYS. But I am quite attached to NYS. Ive travled all over North America and there is NOTHING to compare with the beauty of the catskills on a summers day, except maybe the hills behind Carate in Costa Rica. But I cant live there, so I have to make a choice...live in NYS without my hobby, live with my hobby elsewhere(where undoubtedly there will be more bans)or give it my all to make a difference in EVERYONE'S life. Every herper in NYS has to make that choice. what will you make? can you live with yourself once you've made it? dont feel pressured to answer, just think about it. If you arent adament about it, its pointless to try and fight for your cause. if they get lukewarm responses, they know that nobody really cares that much.

thats my 2 cents about the bill.
-----
- Happy herping!

KE

If you can give me some resources, I'll try to do my part. I'm sort of conflicted because I have so much on my plate right now, but still, black throat monitors are one of my favorite reptiles, and though I can't get one right now, I'd like to be able to in the future. I don't want to settle on a savanna monitor or a tegu (though both are, under good circumstances, pretty good reptilian pets). So yeah, if you have any numbers to call or anything like that, let me know. I had the number of someone somewhere. I think it was an assemblyman or something that was sort of on our side from the start, but I could never get to them for some reason. They never seemed to be around. So do you know of anyone I could call that could help or anything like that? I think the herpers in new york should make a union or something, since there's strength in numbers.

if you could let me know what district you're in I can let you know who your man is to talk to.
-----
- Happy herping!

KE

not sure which district, but it's Rochester....monroe county...is there a directory somewhere? I've been thinking about all of the angles to go with, but I think the best, being that I'm young, would probably be to explain how it is taking a way a big part of my future. If that doesn't work I have a couple of other angles to work. I'll see what gets through to them the most.

im 15 and like u said this has changed my life. bc i want to be a reptile vet when i grown up. i want to see like big black throats come in for check up to see o yeathis is why i wanted to do this. even know my rough neck woulnt have to do anything or my bp or my bds. but people should have the right to own what ever animals they want up to a ceratin comesent. i dont mean like pll can have a great white in a pool in ther back yard. even know that would be pretty cool. as long as they can care for them they should be aloud to keep them. like if one of the guys keeping vemouse snake was making anti venom for the hospitals why should he have to pay too kepp them if his is gunna save ppls lifes. but they will say of you 15 you have know clue what you talking about wich some ppl will say on this fourm but i am gunna stand up for what i belive in. and does anybody know if they are anythings happening in bellmore or naussa . thanks hope this helps.

Hello everyone,

I am not a resident of New York. I am from Ohio. But I read about the ban. Unfortunately the problem that we usually see is with the government. Government agencies could give a s**t about reptile keepers. Primarily because we don't look directly at what is causing the issues. Irresponsible owners of these animals are what cause our issues. We have several counties surrounding columbus that are passing bans on exotics. All have been drafted because some moron in that county decided that he didn't want his alligator or snake or lizard and turned it loose to fend for itself. This is what happens when WE don't do the regulating. Pet stores just sell to anyone who has the money and says they want one. I am a crocodilian keeper primarily, although I do have a burmese python and a couple other specimens. Most of these laws get drafted because WE spend too much time in our basements with our collections hiding instead of out voicing our opinions. Serioius keepers of these animals push their issues. But there are very few and far between people that are willing to sacrifice some of their time towards keeping bans like this at bay. Unfortunately now that New York has started this, other states I am sure will begin following suite.
Write letters,call, go to offices, lobby, whatever the hell you have to do to let your voice be heard. I dare any DNR officer to come to my doorstep and require me to hand over my gators without justified cause. They will be swallowing teeth. I don't give a rats ass if I get arrested. What I do in my home has nothing to do with the rest of society. My animals don't escape. They don't hurt anybody. They just simply live their lives to the best of their ability while within my care.
WE can all work together to get this ban rolled back. We just have to have the right references and representation. It will be a hard battle.....but just like what was mentioned before....How can you lose a battle that you aren't fighting? I am apart of a working committee that is aimed at fighting these types of laws. We will be looking for members, but right now we are in the process of working on another battle and I don't wish to disclose any info at the current moment. When it is available for that info, you may email me at:
pisces842001@yahoo.com and let me know that you are interested in signing up and helping our cause. But right now, we have to do what we can, whether it be by ourselves or with a large group. Every voice helps. But like what was mentioned before, be prepared. You have to know what you are talking about and have data to back up your claims before they will even consider listening to anything that you have to say.

I hope this helps and send me a email if you have any questions or concerns.

Chris Law

my government teacher used to be one of the guys who read and answered the letters to his boss, a NYS assemblyman. He already told me that they dont pay any attention to e-mails, you can try if you want but to be safe I'd print it and mail it too. they like to see that somebody went to the trouble to put something in the mail. Here is the assembly web page, you should be able to find everything you need here in order to find, and contact your assemblyman. Good luck everyone. remember, dont accuse them of being jerks who passed a bad bill. I tried that already in person, and it doesnt work. they really didnt know what they were voting for, and whats done is done and its pointless to blame them. suggest a solution. thats the only way they will listen.
http://assembly.state.ny.us/

-----
- Happy herping!

KE

>>I live near Rochester New York

What a coincidence, so do I.

Now, join either the Upstate Herpetological Association (Syracuse chapter) or the Western New York Herpetological Association (the WNYHA seems a bit more active and alive, they are in Buffalo). These folks are working to get the herp ban overturned. Convince your parents to drive you to the meetings once a month. If you show passion for your hobby, most parents would be happy to encourage you. There is strength in numbers - united we stand, divided we fall. I hope to see you next month.

>>I personally think governor pataki is an idiot.

Governor Pataki is a herper. Really. He worked to get some of the more ridiculous measures out of the bill. In the first draft, the bill banned all reptiles and amphibians other than geckos! Our Governor refused to sign the bill when it outlawed all members of the boidae, and now, because of him, we are allowed to own any boa or python other than a handful of species that are known to pose a threat to human life. Rag on your asseblyman and state senator instead. Go to
assembly.state.ny.us/
There is a feature to search for your assembly representative by your zip code. Let him or her know of your concerns (politely, please). Go to
www.senate.state.ny.us/
and write your state senator.

Best of luck.

Luke

Really? I was mislead into believing that he was the one that was pushing for the bill, not the one that got all of the changes made. I'll go to the western new york herp society website and see what's going on there. I don't necessarily want the bill overturned...I want it changed to a reasonable permit system that allows the responsible owners the ability to keep what they desire, and not just some idiot off the street that wants a "real big snake" or something. I don't think that's really too bad of a demand.

I've got a lot of stuff this week, but I think after christmas I should be able to get into this a little more.

I think most herpers agree with you, in that the bill is not 100% unreasonable. Personally, I dont think anyone outside of a zoo is capable of maintaining a tiger in captivity, if only for the sake of the animal's happiness. Ive seen 'em in small petting zoos, they pace and whine in those small cages. same thing with bears. Thats just my opinion.

Also, I am really REALLY tired of all the sick burms and retics that are bought as cute babies, and then dumped once they get bigger. green iguanas too. I had to tell the vets office to stop calling me with adoption pleas, it was almost at the point where I got one call a week. It might not be a bad idea to put those animals under a permit system, if only for their sake! Anyone who is willing to go to the trouble of a permit, would definately know what kind of animal they were dealing with. In stating that, and giving the lawmakers a little grace, they'll most likely agree that any proposed ammendments are reasonable. If we keep pushing for ammendments, and are polite, I'll bet you anything eventually we'll get something done. Because crocs used to be under a permit system as well, I think I'll go up to bat for the crocs as well, since the same ammendment could cover those too. I'll keep everyone posted with my progress...do what you can. Heres a link to my herp club, the Upstate Herp assoc. The website isnt updated all that regularly, but the tonko bill section is!!
UHA

-----
- Happy herping!

KE

>>I think most herpers agree with you, in that the bill is not
>>100% unreasonable. Personally, I dont think anyone outside of a
>>zoo is capable of maintaining a tiger in captivity, if only for
>>the sake of the animal's happiness. Ive seen 'em in small
>>petting zoos, they pace and whine in those small cages. same
>>thing with bears. Thats just my opinion.

My take is that anyone who can demonstrate both the experience and resources neccessary to care for a dangerous animal safely and humanely should be allowed a permit to keep it. A retired large mammal zookeeper with 20 acres enclosed by a moat and a 20 foot high fence should be allowed to keep a tiger for a pet. Sure, for the giant cats, elephants, and so on, the requirements might be hard to meet, but those dedicated enough to do so should be allowed the critters that fascinate them.

>>
>>Also, I am really REALLY tired of all the sick burms and retics
>>that are bought as cute babies, and then dumped once they get
>>bigger. green iguanas too. I had to tell the vets office to
>>stop calling me with adoption pleas, it was almost at the point
>>where I got one call a week. It might not be a bad idea to put
>>those animals under a permit system, if only for their sake!
>>Anyone who is willing to go to the trouble of a permit, would
>>definately know what kind of animal they were dealing with.

There are two different issues here: public safety and animal welfare. A bill that regulates animals on the basis of public safety should not try to double as an animal welfare law. The Tonko bill is a public safety bill. As such, it should focus on animals that are truely dangerous to the public - this includes elephants, cape buffalo, hippopotomuses, rhinoceroses, and komodo monitors (which are not on the bill) but not servals, fennec foxes, or white throat monitos (which are on the bill).

I agree that there is a large animal welfare concern with iguanas, burms, sulcatas, and Nile monitors. These species are probably the most abused and neglected pet reptiles, and for the same reason: They cost much, much less to purchase than to care for. Rather than a permit system, with the attendant beaurocracy, enforecment issues, and the possibility that the state government will simply refuse to issue permits (this has happened in other states with other animals), a simple tax of $200 to $400 per iguana, burm, sulcata, or Nile monitor would greatly reduce the number of these animals which are abused or neglected. The tax should be waived for adoption fees from bona fide animal rescue organizations.

Luke

Its tough to make a call about animals that are simply difficult to care for, because you run into all kinds of conflicting opinions and ideas, none of which have sounded foolproof to me, including my own ideas. I would tend to agree with you in general, though I dont think a fee is the ultimatele solution. unfortunately I dont think that will ever be solved. people love to make money, and if they exploit animals along the way, they dont care, so we will always have the neglected green igunana, burm, large monitors etc problem. Then again,you have the guy who loves green iguanas, and knows how to care for them, and is pissed to have to pay a large sum of money for one, and shouldnt have to. thats why I think permits COULD be A solution, because then it allows only qualified people to obtain an animal. If all animals were valued like endangered animals, and you had to get a similar permit(its hard, but possible to get an ES permit)a lot of problems would be solved, but not all. the problem boils down to people out to make a buck, and having no problem selling large numbers of animals that are close to impossible to properly care for in captivity, to people they know will never get it right. thats the problem. if people valued their baby sav monitors like komodo dragons, they'd stop, and say "hey pal, are you sure you know how to take care of this thing?" when a little kid wants to buy one. I used to sell hand raised tokay geckos at shows, which I bred myself and were perfectly tame. They each had personalities and quirks. I jacked the price up to 35 bucks, and I would NOT sell to people I thought were sketchy. Maybe not fair, but I cant live with myself giving my little helpless animals away to a person who might not take care of it. Call me a hypocrit, but I really love my little animals, and I know they are at my mercy. Selling them to somebody I wasnt sure about would be like leaving their cages outside and MAYBE it would stay warm out, and MAYBE it would drop down below zero! if everyone tried to do that, there would be less of a problem. Outraged people too, yeah, but thats better than dead and suffering animals. as mad as those people might get, its not like they'll never be able to get the animals they want. they'd be able to prove themselves. we dont have that chance now.

I doubt with all the garbage that goes on with legislature these days, that that situation will ever be 100% solved. I dunno if anyone else has noticed, but at the last hamburg show, baby sav monitors were only 10$ at a couple tables! I saw some young men walking out with those animals that I am confident only wanted a cool animal for 10 bucks. its only a matter of time before PA adopts similar regulations in regards to herps, and we wont see much of that anymore, which will be a relief, but I am sad that these laws restrict the good keepers. Herpers dont make the laws, but we can add our 2 cents and maybe influence them.
-----
- Happy herping!

KE

I understand what you mean. Savs for $10 is just ridiculous. I'd pay $500 if I knew that less people would be getting them who weren't going to take care of them. That's why savs are seen as the iguana of the monitor world. Pretty soon if something isn't done they very well could be the next iguana. That's why I think they need to do something, but not this. This law is just ridiculous I think, because it restricts even those that could give the best possible care in the world.

Also, for a hand tame tokay gecko, I'd say it's worth the extra money. If they're 100% healthy, I honestly wouldn't mind paying much more than $35 for them. That's just me though. I value my animals more than my money. I'd rather have healthy animals and be dirt poor than have unhealthy animals and tons of money...I guess that would just mean that I didn't think they were worth putting any money into, but I definately do. My bearded dragon was my first lizard, and I made a big mistake there. I paid $80 for a sub adult...one that ended up being full of parasites. He looked healthy otherwise, but after a couple poops I knew something was up. I had him for 2.5 years so far, and he just finally got rid of the last of his many types of parasites last summer. That's probably partly my fault though. Last winter he started brumation, and I had thought that he didn't have any parasites left, but apparently he did, and that caused a lot of problems, so now I check up on him all of the time during brumation (trying not to disturb him however), and I'm just really paranoid. Last fecal said he was clean though.

It's all about getting a healthy animal. I realize that now. When I got my leopard gecko a couple of weeks ago, I made sure to get the healthiest I could find. I'm still paranoid because of my experiences with the beardie (who also almost developed kidney problems because he wasn't eating any vegetation). I had to pay more than I would have had to if i had gotten a leo from a less reputable place, but it's not about the money. To a lot of people it is though, so prices are dropping and dropping for the popular reptiles, and that just causes problems.

One of the things that I must say that would be most damaging is if we have to rely on the government to regulate our hobby. Unfortunately alot of what we are doing is forcing them to do this. I get really tired of hearing people say that they don't think that somebody should be able to have something because of whatever....because most likely the same people that are perfectly qualified to own the animal you think shouldn't are thinking the same thing about whatever you have. Experience, knowledge, and wallet size are the most important factors to whether somebody should be able to own anything. If you want a crocodilian....here take a test at this place, show me that you have a confinement large enough to house this particular animal as an adult, microchip necessary by a qualified veterinarian, and an inspection every 6 months or so. Something of that sort I could understand. Banning them totally is ridiculous. Telling one person they can't have what they like, would be like the government telling you that you can't have what you like because THEY don't feel like you are capable of housing and care.

Just thought that I would throw that in there.

Chris

what it boils down to, is..Is this America, or a communist country? Because a ban like this, needless, unresearched, and pulled right out of somebody's wallet, sure does seem like communism to me.
-----
- Happy herping!

KE

That's pretty much what it boils down to.