Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We talked about this a few weeks ago and the responses were varied. It is always nice to hear others input. I would like to discuss this a little bit further and make something clear, that I felt was taken a little " out of context. " I am not against " selective breeding. " I am against " irresponsible selective breeding. " Now remember, this is my opinion and I am not dictating to nobody, just bringing an issue to light.In a way, I really dilike the fact, that we have become so " image based " in this society overall. I am also human, I love nice colorful boas also, but I feel there is ways that we can go wrong in the long run. I think that we can all agree that; " A plain boa with no pattern or markings, for the most part would be a ugly boa and when one reaches that point,there is nothing else to selective breed for anyway. " I truly feel that; " Once we have bred a particular bloodline to have really thin saddles and reduced pattern, we should incorporate thicker saddles and darker markings into that particular bloodline so that we keep the animal representing its true locale. " If we keep breeding thin saddles and reduced patterns together, it is inevitable that we will produce plain boas. " This is becoming more common in certain locality bloodlines already. It is especially sad when the particular locale is only able to be aquired in captivity. Alot of the Bolivian bloodlines are already being reduced to nothing and they will probably never be brought in from the wild again( wich is a good thing. ) If and when imports are stopped altogether, it will be put completely in the breeders hands to be responsible and keep the animals representing their localities.So, I am not saying that; " Selective breeding is terrible. " I am saying; " Irresponsible selective breeding is terrible and could hurt captive bloodlines in the future. " So remember, I love thin and uniform saddles and bright colors also. I just think we need to keep it at a happy median. I also love and probably prefer, dark boldly marked boas with high contrast. I have thin saddled animals and brightly colored animals. This is a picture of my overall favorite. Her contrast is remarkable, but by most of you guys and gals standards, she is probably ugly and here is the kicker; " She is a Suriname. " ........GOD BLESS...Johnson Herp

That's an awesome Suri. What are you planning on breeding her to?
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Davey Giltner

I truly believe, that when you breed a dark washed animal, with inky, jet black markings to a light colorful animal, you get the best of all worlds. I have done this in my own collection and I plan on trying it again with a few different combinations this year. I have not concentrated on breeding anything for the last few years, because of the declining market and I get as much enjoymenmt out of them anyway, wether they breed or not. In the past, I have seen that; " Using this particular combination, will give you babies with, dark and contrasting markings along with deep tails and bright clean colors. " I have seen tails especially come out extraordinary this way. We will see what happens. This is something I want to prove once and for all to myself, more than trying to convince others. She will be bred to a male with, thin and cinnamon red saddles and he has zero speckling and 10 full orange tailbands and his color is weird at best. He is light mauve pink with blue and green scales. We will see what happens.Here is another female that has an amazing white background, with inky black and connecting saddles. She, will be bred to a bright silver male with jet black markings. I believe, this particular combination will be stunning....GOD BLESS......Johnson Herp

I don’t think you were taken out of context; I think you made references and inferences that, in combination, were quite self-contradictory and you are disappointed that others don’t march to that drum. Rather, I think you need to say what you mean and mean what you say or rethink your positions, statements, and ideas.

The description of your breeding/pairing techniques IS NOT natural selection/breeding either.

Please define “irresponsible selective breeding” and then let me know what “responsible selective breeding” is. For instance, “I like responsible drivers, but I don’t like irresponsible drivers”.

I am still looking for the “plain boas with no markings” that you describe. Who has them?

You say, “I love thin and uniform saddles and bright colors…I have thin saddled animals and brightly colored animals”. Isn’t that creating a market for the very type of “irresponsible selective breeders” that you described in this and your last post? Per your explicitly stated logic, I think so.

I believe, that I made it perfectly clear; " If we continue to breed thin saddled and reduced patterned animals to one another, the saddles will become thinner and the patterns will become more reduced and eventually the animals will be plain. " This is not a huge threat right now, but it could become one in the future and that is the point. Thin saddles and reduced patterns, are not the issue as far as being " evil and bad. " I simply said; " In my OPINION there needs to be a happy median and after a while we may need to incorporate thicker saddles and darker marked bloodlines into our thin saddled and reduced pattern bloodlines, so that we can KEEP and ENJOY what most of us prefer, without taking away the animals pattern and markings altogether. " What is so difficult to understand about that? Yes, I feel ( once again in my OPINION ) that if imports are cut off in the future and the animals being bought and sold in captivity are coming strictly from breeders, that it would be irresponsible for us ( locality guys ) to not keep at least some kind of pattern on the animals that we breed. Look, I am not bringing this topic up anymore. My theories will be either proven right one day or wrong. Nobody, hopes more than me that I will be proven wrong.......GOD BLESS....Johnson Herp

You are missing the essence of your own little mantra.

We will never be in danger of only having 'animals with saddles so thin that there are none'... because people will continue to buy all types... therefore making them desireable and holding a place in the market... there IS a market for the thin saddled, high colored, whatever. But there is ALSO a marked for highly and IRRESPONSIBLY selecivley bred animals.

People WANT animal XXX so, its gonna be bred... there is no changing this fact.
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recycle your pets

The buyers market is dictateing what is bred. You will always have two markets. One market for designer boas, and one market for true local. If you choose to breed true local...then guess what?? your boas are going to be in demand for those individuals who are wanting true local. There are buyers that want plain no pattern boas...Check out the NEW all black patternless boa...only one ever produced...that one is awesome, Or how about the PURPLE patternless boa..wow!. Look how many go crazy over patternless hogs. While I think the black boa, or a snow boa rocks! I do not care for patternless hogs...but that is just my opinion. There will always be people breeding all types of variety into this market. Thats the way I see things. Andy Federico

The plainest-looking boa that I can think of would be leucistic. I think the market would go crazy over them.

IMHO, one type of irresponsible breeding is crossing subspecies. I think that Suris should look like Suris, and Argentines should look like Argentines. Uniformity is for insects!

Paul Hollander

...uniformity is for insects. That was awesome!

Matthew

YOU:I believe, that I made it perfectly clear; " If we continue to breed thin saddled and reduced patterned animals to one another, the saddles will become thinner and the patterns will become more reduced and eventually the animals will be plain. "

ME: There will always be several people breeding animals WITHOUT thin saddles/reduced patterns. In fact, most Surinames DO NOT have these thin saddles/reduced patterns, as indicated by the corresponding high price due to low supply of those animals that have these traits (remember our little lesson on supply and demand?). What are you really getting at here?
Your lack of coherence and logic clearly indicates several things to me. Amongst them, just as an observation to satisfy my curiosity, I would be willing to bet my left beef medallion that you’ve barely passed basic algebra in HS and probably never took college algebra. I DO NOT say this because I think one has to take algebra to be logical, successful or anything like that. But I’ve certainly noticed that most people with a clear lack of coherence such as you HAVE a very weak mathematical background. Is that so, tell me? I am just looking at correlations I’ve noticed with people in general and am not looking to stereotype.

YOU: This is not a huge threat right now, but it could become one in the future and that is the point.

ME: And the sky could fall in on us also…what is the point? Cow flatulence is affecting the ozone layer too, but what is your point? Who has or produces these mass amounts of patternless or seemingly patternless animals? I wanna know because I will buy some, seriously.

YOU: Thin saddles and reduced patterns, are not the issue as far as being " evil and bad. " I simply said; " In my OPINION there needs to be a happy median and after a while we may need to incorporate thicker saddles and darker marked bloodlines into our thin saddled and reduced pattern bloodlines, so that we can KEEP and ENJOY what most of us prefer, without taking away the animals pattern and markings altogether. " What is so difficult to understand about that?

ME: I still want to know who has these dominantly “thin saddled/reduced pattern bloodline BCCs”. And, if everyone is breeding animals for these traits, then that means that most people would be “KEEPing and ENJOYing what they prefer.” just as you said, so what then is your problem? Other than a few Bolivian/Brazilian litters here and there, I have NEVER seen litters of locale redtails born with very high ratios of thin saddles and reduced patterns. These animals that you seem to think will become the norm and eventually misrepresent the species are FAR MORE the exception than the rule. Seeing as these are far more the exception than the rule, even when one TRIES to breed for these traits (at least in BCC as far as I have seen), and considering that there will always be people breeding animals with different patterns, I don’t understand what your point is. That is the essence my problem. That is like saying you won’t wear a seatbelt because you are afraid of being trapped in a car when in fact use of a seatbelt saves thousands more lives than it would ever take. That might be a poor analogy, but it is the first and only one to come to mind. You act as though there should be urgent fear of the most unlikely outcome, hardly logical.

YOU: Yes, I feel (once again in my OPINION ) that if imports are cut off in the future and the animals being bought and sold in captivity are coming strictly from breeders, that it would be irresponsible for us ( locality guys ) to not keep at least some kind of pattern on the animals that we breed. Look, I am not bringing this topic up anymore. My theories will be either proven right one day or wrong. Nobody, hopes more than me that I will be proven wrong.......GOD BLESS....Johnson Herp

ME: Good choice. I think until you learn to logically present a coherent point; you ought to not bring it up to avoid casting further scrutiny on your own intellect. In fact, the point you seem to be trying to make has no foundation and thus, even if it had the flow or structure it presently lacks, it still would be junk. I think Butthead once summed this up quite nicely by saying “Beavis, you can’t polish a terd”. Johnson Herp, sometimes, silence is golden.

and this is logic ?
Name calling defeated your limited creditabilty muchless anything logic :rolleyes:

Tell me, where do I lack logic? Namecalling? When did I ever call people names? Your ability to imagine name-calling and your inability to look past what you’ve imagined to see one’s points objectively shows me that you probably fail the algebra test and a whole lot more.

I haven’t called anyone names. Rather, I’ve stated exactly what I interpret and have asked questions on what I don’t understand.

As side note to this Sslonestar and for Johnson as well, I am not here to play political games or to participate in a popularity party; I am not looking for “votes” or to be the president of anything. I will say exactly what I think and unlike yourself and Johnson, I think carefully before I speak/type. I am not worried that someone might not buy my boas because someone “didn’t like my last post”. I produce boas to get a few for myself, for the enjoyment of such, and not for the $$. I am happy to share any extras I am blessed with. If someone sells good boas, most people in the market for that type of boa would buy from them, so long as the seller has or seems to have integrity. Likeability and integrity are not always synonymous.

IOW, for you, being imaginative and phonetically challenged, this means that one might buy a boa from someone that they don’t necessarily like or that they night have differences of opinion with, so long as the boa fits buyer’s likes and the seller is honest. So if my take on things deters someone from buying my boas (thick or thin saddles, just for you Johnson), then so be it. As such, one can rest assured that any response from me WILL BE objective. I welcome anyone to question (preferably not insult) my credibility all they’d like, as I love to learn and I’ve been wrong more than once. Critical thinking is the source of much knowledge, but rest assured I WILL BE objective.

I am on this forum to exchange pictures and ideas and sometimes to answer questions where I can with the limited experience that I have. In the end, I hope that I would be able to help some others from making the same mistakes I have in the past such that they are not forced to “reinvent the wheel”, much like some long time boa guys have helped me to more quickly climb the learning curve. With that said, I will press on here.

In referring to my “limited credibility” (“creditabilty” as you put it), where do you get off saying that? At least I’ve produced a few litters but I’ve seen you produce nothing but typos and grammatical disasters. Based on what I know, what you are saying is analogous to “throwing stones in a big glass house”.

You must have been reading the wrong post, as I didn’t really call anyone names, obscenities, or whatever it was you were inferring that damages my “limited creditabilty”. Maybe you need “hooked on phonics” or something to help you identify what name-calling is, to spell, and to help you read my post while learning to type your own for that matter. Here is the link; be sure you copy and paste this link so you don’t misspell it:
http://www.hookedonphonics.com/

Bet that impressed your buddies `eh ?

:Yaaaaawn:

Here's a lesson for you.

For 3 points, answer the following:

Calling sslonestar by the name ssTARstar, because of his lack of intellect, is namecalling.

True or False?

Let me know if you'd like any other tutoring sessions.

That suri is awesome!
you should breed her to a SunsetxSalmontine!

(just kidding, I hope you know that)
Locality-type boas are amazing.
I want some longicauda so bad...but I don't want to be single again, so I will have to wait.
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Jeremy J. Anderson
snakepimp.com
gemstatereptiles.com
Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
Are they using the beef to control your mind? That stuff in your cigarettes, your beer and the wine Is working its way, infiltrating your spine, Today is the day you should wake up and find That they’re using the beef to control your mind. --(excerpt from a musical I wrote...)

I understand what you are saying. I too like the reduced saddles and clean look of some of the boas. But its also nice to see animals that represent the locale they come from. I agree that if these boas are not shipped out of their countrys we will possibly lose what and how they look in nature. I believe there has to be a balance. The Bolivian boa is a good example I see alot of reduced saddled Amarali, but i have to admit i sure like the way they look and would love to have one or two.
Anyway I think discussions like this are good and can only help the hobby.
Chuck

I agree with you on this as well... And for the record I think the Boa you showed is Lovely... I love the dark ones with the higher contrast... In any captive breeding program be it reptile,bird or fish you must aways bring in new genetics or risk losing the very things you are trying to breed for... JMO Cat