Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If I'm not mistaken, I believe one of the main reasons for having captive bred animals is so less will have to be taken from the wild. I don't really see no point in it when there are plenty of captive bred animals to go around. When I see on certain forums such as the cornsnake forum, people bragging about how they found a beautiful wildcaught snake and can't wait to breed it it really bothers me. Why not leave the snake in its natural home where it belongs and get a captive bred because I cornsnakes are one of the most plentiful captive bred animals. Thats just an example though, I see on some websites people selling wildcaught black racers for $5.00. I mean, come on now, when you will sell those for $5.00 it show me that you will just do anything to make a dollar. This is just an itch I needed to scratch and not intended to call out anybody and what they do. Just an opinion.

Thank You

Sometimes introducing a wild caught animal provides some diversity in the gene pool of a breeding project. Too much inbreeding of a species is hazardous to it's health, so to speak. This is one valid reason for keeping a WC animal. There can be times when a CB population may be the most viable population of an endangered species.

Another reason that comes to mind is if an animal is
sick/ injured and cannot return home after rescue and rehab. Whenever an animal is exposed to an environment where it may pick up, let's say, a virus that it wouldn't pick up in the wild, it becomes a threat to the survival of the wild population if released.

Of course, the foundation for any commonly CB species were WC specimens. Right now I have two breeding projects going which involve less commonly kept species of snakes. All of the breeders are WC imports. Also, some people work with locale specific subspecies. They need to collect enough WC animals for a viable CB genetic pool.

Then there's just that sweet feeling of finding a beautiful snake. On my way fishing one day I swerved to avoid something black & white slithering across the road. Brake lights, jumped out--there looking at me was the most beautiful pine snake I'd ever seen! I was SO tempted to just put him in my creel and call it a day. So, after about 10 minutes of mutual exploration & admiration (on my part), I sent him on his way because many people breed pines if I really want one.

Just a few thoughts. . .
althea

that still doesn't really justify catching a full grown snake and putting it in a 20 gallon tank for the rest of its life. I can understand if you catch a neonate, or even a yearling... a snake this young really hasn't learned everything out there, so i feel you aren't depriving it of anything.

However these people that go out and catch wild full grown snakes to keep or sell... i just think thats wrong also. There is a huge difference between picking up to admire a snake, and taking it home and keeping it in a miniature box for the rest of its life. I will go out in the woods and pick up various snakes to admire them, then i let them go. Picture getting abducted by an alien right now and being put in a big clear glass box the size of a walk in closet for the rest of your life. proportionally, you would be in a bigger area than that snake you just caught.

sadly this world has come to a time where everything is motivated by money, and people dont really care about anything anymore.

I also think that there are so many snakes eggs out there... you can lure the mamma away and grab the eggs, hatch them and bam you got around 20 new entries into the gene pool. or get babies. leave the adults alone i say.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
1.1 Texas Bairds (Jose and Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Claudius)... coming soon

>>that still doesn't really justify catching a full grown snake and putting it in a 20 gallon tank for the rest of its life. I can understand if you catch a neonate, or even a yearling... a snake this young really hasn't learned everything out there, so i feel you aren't depriving it of anything.

What, exactly would you be depriving it of? Predation? Getting run over by a car or having it's head chopped off by some snake-hating local? The problem with overcollecting isn't the effect on the individual animal, but on the population as a whole. Do snakes even have the capacity to feel "deprived"? The vast majority of the time, you don't really have much choice in what age snake you catch, you catch what you find. If you want to start a breeding project from W/C, adults are the obvious place to start. Also, a 20-gallon tank isn't the only available caging option.
>>
>>However these people that go out and catch wild full grown snakes to keep or sell... i just think thats wrong also. There is a huge difference between picking up to admire a snake, and taking it home and keeping it in a miniature box for the rest of its life. I will go out in the woods and pick up various snakes to admire them, then i let them go. Picture getting abducted by an alien right now and being put in a big clear glass box the size of a walk in closet for the rest of your life. proportionally, you would be in a bigger area than that snake you just caught.

I agree that commercial collection can be harmful. Sadly, I've been a part of that in the past (30 years ago). In those days, we really didn't have much of an idea of what we were potentially doing to the wild populations. However, commercial collecting isn't the topic here. The discussion is about collecting a few wild specimens for captive breeding. In my opinion, the more breeding taking place for any species that has potential for the pet trade, the better. If something happens to threaten the wild populations, at least there will be stock available for repatriation efforts. The big thing there is to keep locale data and avoid "hybridizing" or intergrading.
>>
>>sadly this world has come to a time where everything is motivated by money, and people dont really care about anything anymore.

Actually, I think the tides have turned in the other direction over the last 30 or 40 years.
>>
>>I also think that there are so many snakes eggs out there... you can lure the mamma away and grab the eggs, hatch them and bam you got around 20 new entries into the gene pool. or get babies. leave the adults alone i say.

Why would you need to lure the mamma away? Unless you are talking about King Cobras or certain Pythons, mamma will be long gone by the time you find the eggs anyway. There is no maternal care in the vast majority of snakes. She just lays the eggs or drops the babies and goes on her merry way. Don't you think you would be doing far more harm to the population by taking the 20 eggs you speak of than by removing one or two adults? Besides, I'm not sure if you've ever tried to find a clutch of eggs or not...
>>-----
>>-Chris
>>
>>The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin
>>
>>A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?
>>
>>My Website
>>Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
>>
>>Current snakes:
>>0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
>>1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
>>1.1 Texas Bairds (Jose and Rosa)
>>0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
>>1.0 Green Tree Python (Claudius)... coming soon

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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Hey, I agree that wild caughts are necessary for heathly breeding populations, not only that, but consider the location. I perfer to catch snakes in area's that I know will be developed soon. Suburban development is not wildlife friendly the little patches of woods left behind can not support a population of snakes for the long term. Generally speaking a collecting has minimal impact on a healthy aboundant enviroment,it's loss of habitat that it can not stand, and is the biggest threat to the snakes welfare. I have to disagree with the statement that collecting a clutch of eggs is more of an impact then collecting an adult, however. Babies of any animal are designed to be eaten or killed only the strongest survive to adults and to breed. when you remove an adult. You are removing a genetically fit specimen and making room for a less fit animal to replace it and reproduce. The less fit animal will have fewer successful offspring. When you take a baby, its an animal that would most likely have been eaten or failed to find its own territory, thus having almost no effect on the population.It's messed up that most fishing quotas, for example, ignore this fact and require that the fish or crab be a large size, when taking smaller ones is more environmentally sound.

Hi Rick!

Normally you and I see pretty much eye-to-eye. However, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. If you remove an adult animal from a population, you have removed not only that one animal, but all of the offspring it would have produced in the future. This is especially true in the case of removing a female. Most snakes have a hatchling survival rate (those that survive to breeding size) of anywhere from 10% to about 25% or so. So, if you remove a clutch of 20 eggs, you have removed at least 2 individuals and maybe as many as 5 that would have survived to adulthood, PLUS all of the offspring they would have produced.

I absolutely agree that habitat loss is the biggest threat to all herp species. I know for a fact however, from personal experience, that it is entirely possible to decimate populations of certain animals by overcollecting. A good exampple of that is the Eastern Indigo Snake. It is a large, conspicuous, slow to reproduce snake that happens to make an excellent pet...therefore it was a prime target for the pet trade in the 1960's and 1970's. I remember buying wild-caught Indigos for $25.00. Many populations were either completely decimated by overcollecting or almost so. Since they have come under Federal and State protection, the biggest threat is habitat loss, but that's not what put them in trouble in the first place (although it certainly didn't help matters). Another good example is the Apalachicola Kingsnake (Lampropeltis getula goini ). Since it was first decribed in the 1960's by Dr. Bruce Means, the population has been very nearly extirpated by collecting.

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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I think your right, I can't say that collecting has no impact. I guess the point I am making is that the loss of animals due to collecting is moot when their habitat is being destroyed unchecked. if a field near my house is about to become a town house complex, am I not vindicated in collecting ever last snake that lives in it? As for the clutch, I see your point there as well, however I meant to defend catching neonates as apose to adults. Which I believe my agrument still stands. If you capture a baby snake, the odds that your are removing a snake that would not have lived to reproduce are 75% according to your figures. Hunting eggs is bad idea, not only for the reasons you describe but also because of the fact that to find them you would have to destroy alot of nesting sites and shelter that the snakes depend on.

>>I think your right, I can't say that collecting has no impact. I guess the point I am making is that the loss of animals due to collecting is moot when their habitat is being destroyed unchecked. if a field near my house is about to become a town house complex, am I not vindicated in collecting ever last snake that lives in it? As for the clutch, I see your point there as well, however I meant to defend catching neonates as apose to adults. Which I believe my agrument still stands. If you capture a baby snake, the odds that your are removing a snake that would not have lived to reproduce are 75% according to your figures. Hunting eggs is bad idea, not only for the reasons you describe but also because of the fact that to find them you would have to destroy alot of nesting sites and shelter that the snakes depend on.

I agree, if the land is to be developed the habitat will be gone. I see no problems with removing the animals that will be displaced. At least you will be providing them with a home and food.

Finding clutches of eggs in the field is a hit-and-miss thing at best. If you find a clutch, you just count yourself lucky. Going out and looking for them is an excercise in futility. As you pointed out, you would have to essentially destroy the habitat to find them and your odds still wouldn't be good. I have found a few clutches in my time and was able to figure out the species in a couiple of cases by deductive reasoning...you know, "What species live in this area that would lay eggs this size in a clutch this size.." that sort of thing. Many times all you know for sure is that it's snake eggs.

As far as the numbers go, yeah you could look at it like "This one particular snake had a less than 25% chance of surviving." Or, you can say "It's likely that up to 25% of this clutch would have survived and reproduced had they not been collected."
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>I also think that there are so many snakes eggs out there... you can lure the mamma away and grab the eggs, hatch them and bam you got around 20 new entries into the gene pool. or get babies. leave the adults alone i say.

Evidently you have not been out field herping. When is the last time you came across snake eggs?? You may accidently find them on occasion, but your going to be hard pressed to actually go out and find them. Do you know how much habitat you will destroy by digging in the soft soil, tearing up rotting trees, and just generally destroying stuff?? Snakes lay there eggs in hidden away spots so predators cannot get them!! You are considered a predator, and without the accute sense of smell of most animals that predate herp eggs, it would be almost impossible to find any!! Even if you found them, most eggs cannot be told apart. Granted some can, if you know what your looking for, but to the average person impossible. So you wouldnt even know what kind of snake your looking at hatching out.

Once found, could you hatch them out?? Most people dont have a clue as to the specifics of hatching snake eggs. So then if they are kept too hot, too cold, too dry, etc.. then the eggs die! So you just killed off a bunch of possible viable offspring and really hurt the herp population where the eggs were collected!!

And on the note of catching hatchlings/neonates: Of all the snakes we came across this last season, MAYBE 5% was either hatchlings or neonates!! Everything else were yearlings, young adults or adults! You know why?? Because just about everything in the wild predates baby snakes. Everything from feral cats, wild turkeys, coyotes, to hawks and eagles! Even other snakes!
So hatchlings/neonates are very good at hiding and only coming out at certain times. That is why most snakes found are not hatchling/neonates.
Brian

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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Not everyone likes the "eye-candy" morphs that are available out there. If you look at the snakes in the herp trade, 80% are "eye-candy" morphs. Some of us are not into these animals and only enjoy "normal locale" animals. I for one would rather have a W/C normal animal that I have went to great pains to find. With such an animal, you know exactly where it came from and no doubt that it is what it is! Mother Natures normal colorings are much more appealing to me, and the subtle differences in the locality animals are something to enjoy. Most people couldnt tell you the difference between, for example, black rat snakes from MO and KY. Two neighboring states that have 2 distinct looking obsoleta!! Or here in KY we have the southern black racer and in NW MO there is the eastern yellow bellied racer.

Collecting a few snakes from the wild will not decimate a population, commercial collecting and habitat destruction are what decimates herp populations. Not just snakes, but lizards, turtles and amphibians as well!! That is why alot of states have either adopted a "hands off" policy or put a restriction on the amount of W/C animals you can own. "Hands off" is IMHO, too severe, unless it is an endangered species. KY has great wildlife management laws, and they are fair. If most states adopted the same laws, it would definitely have a positive impact towards herp management. Especially if those persons breaking the laws were prosecuted to the fullest extent!!

This last season I didnt collect a single snake that I came across here in KY. I saw lots of them, and they are still out there! I would like to add a red milk snake to my collection, but that doesnt mean I will snag the first one I come across, unless it is an awesome specimen. And if I do come across one that I want to collect, it will be in the spring. That way if it does not adjust to captivitiy, it can be released back to where it was found before it is too late in the season!

I do have to agree that there are alot of species of snakes available, but not locale specific ones.

Here is a pic of my male MO black rat snake. He is maybe 2 years old and around 36" in length. Already getting jet black with a black venter and lots of red in between his scales.

And a picture of my male KY locale black rat snake. He is almost 3.5 years old, at last measurement he was 66" and stil growing. He will be a whopper of a black rat. Notice how he has retained his saddles and coloring. When I first got him as a hatchling, he looked like a normal black rat hatchling. But as he has matured he has changed into this magnificent animal with golds, browns, and greys!! To me this is way more satisfying than getting say, a whitesided, or licorice black rat.

Or how about this one. Here is my KY locale corn snake. Not het, double het, or triple het for anything. Just 100% KY corn snake! This is how they are meant to look, and IMHO, way better than any morph out there!!! I would rather have one of these than the high end morph any day of the week. Sure you may say that is looks like any other normal corn snake, but there are subtle differences in KY corns and corns from the SE. Saddle count being one. And these subtle differences are why some people enjoy locale animals much more so than a petstore sold snake.

I have spent many many hours out in the field herping and came across literally hundreds of different herps just last season alone!!! When you find a habitat that nobody else knows about and can make it more appealing to snakes, and then go back later in the year and find some very nice specimens, that is what it is all about. Not only finding them, but leaving them there for future enjoyment. Snakes are alot more common than most people think!!! We found an abundance of different species of snakes last season, and had a great time doing it.

A few herpers collecting a few snakes for personal collection is not going to hurt the snake population. Its the ones going out and collecting everything that they find to make a quick buck with. Those are the people who are hurting the herp populations, and need to be hammered. This combined with habitat destruction will do way more damage than any occasional collector could ever do!!

So you see, you have to see both sides of the coin, thats what makes this a great hobby, not everyone likes the same thing.
Happy Herping
Brian

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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

You bring up a very important issue that is not current address, not all black rat snakes are the same. I agree, and you have demonstrated this fact that populations are unique and its a shame that a species as whole is protected but phenotypes are not. A unique population of black rat snakes could be easily wipe out by over collecting, if they were a popular target, or likewise by the building of a single office building. To the law they are just black rat snakes, no one, to my knowledge, considers what they represented to the gene pool.

Rick
That is why I like the locale animals. Each locality, be it bull snakes, fox snakes, racers, rats, and even the various water snakes, have their own subtle nuances. And it makes it all them much sweeter when you finally find that one "perfect" locality animal that you have been hunting for years!!

The reason phenotypes are not distinguished, is because they are all genetically identical. Just color variations much like other animals in different locals. It would be way too difficult to pinpoint each and every locale specific animal and put a name to it. For example, back to the black rat snake. Here in KY, you can find many different color variations of them. Anywhere from dark gray and black to the golden brown like mine. And in each of those locals, the snakes can be very different!!

Another example is the Red X eastern milk intergrade that resides here. They can be a dusky colored snake with some beige and brown to a nice cream colored snake with nice dark red saddles!!!

That is part of the thrill of going out herping, you never know what your going to find!! This last fall me and a buddy was out hitting some of our spots and came across a pair of what we thought were southern black racers. With racers you grab first and then evaluate what you have because if you hesitate, they are gone!! However, once we had them in hand, we were amazed to find we had just found a pair of eastern hognoses that were jet black and totally awesome. Of course they are still out there hopefully producing some nice babies this next season!!!

Here is what they looked like before we picked them up...

And once we had them in hand...

Another fine example of locale animals that are genetically identical but have variable colorings. I have found both the dark version and normal colored hogs in my yard. So I imagine in that area where the pair was found, there are the normal colored hogs as well.

A situation like this I would never collect any pair like this from the wild. IMHO, this would do more damage to a population of animals in that area than just collecting a single adult or a hatchling/yearling.

Collecting animals in moderation from different areas are not going to impact populations. That is why most herpers who have found a few "sweet spots" dont advertise the whereabouts of said locations!! There are only a few people that I trust showing my sites to, because I know that they will respect me enough not to show anyone else.

Habitat destruction are the main causes of populations declining, and highways kill many more snakes every year across the Nation than are collected.

The only problems I have with animal collection is when someone goes out in the woods and just tears up everything trying to find herps. And collects everything they find just to make a quick buck at the local pet store or online!! Those are the ones that have given the herpers a black eye with Fish and Game!! Stuff like that only fuels the fires of people wanting to ban herping all together!!! Just like the guy in IN or IL I think it was, had a few thousand box turtles that they had collected and were going to sell!!! People like that are the idiots that make it harder for people like myself, to enjoy herping. They should fry him and his cohorts to the maximum allowable punishment, and then some!! Make life miserable for this slug, not the rest of us who follow the rules set forth by F&G!

Ok Ill get off my soap box, sorry for the long rant! LOL
Brian

>>You bring up a very important issue that is not current address, not all black rat snakes are the same. I agree, and you have demonstrated this fact that populations are unique and its a shame that a species as whole is protected but phenotypes are not. A unique population of black rat snakes could be easily wipe out by over collecting, if they were a popular target, or likewise by the building of a single office building. To the law they are just black rat snakes, no one, to my knowledge, considers what they represented to the gene pool.

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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Even slight difference in color can represent slight genetic difference, I am sure that if someone had the resources, you could find genetic markers to identify phenotypes and populations and then protect the endangered or threaten population not just the species as a whole. I share your admiration of location specific finds, thats why I think its a shame that they are not recognized and protected. There are genetic traits that exist within a species that can be location specific, for example I know a location were the eastern garter snakes are stripeless, this may be a trait repeated in other locations, say 3 out 10. When that field is develop the impact to gene pool of the eastern garter is far greater then expected. Without pay attention to species phenotypes the rarer stripeless morph of the eastern garter could get wiped out without anyone noticing it at all. When the gene pool is reduced, a new disease could suddenly wipe out the entire species. I think its a serious issue that we preserve a species, but not diversity within that species.

I think the one point that jon was trying to make was taking snakes from the wild to sell.

I think that sucks. Period.

Taking snakes from certain locals to add to your personal collection / start or add new animals to a breeding project is a different story.

Jon mentioned people selling wc black racers for $5 a piece.
I personally think that is unethical.

See a box turtle, see $5.
See a corn snake, see $10

This is the mentality that will destroy wild populations of herps. ANY herps. Not just the ones that are already in trouble.

Like the people in Asia who will butcher every python they see to send the skins to America so some wanna-be cowboy can be a tough guy in his snake skin boots when he goes line dancing.
They are poor, and the demand is there. But then over half of their crop is destroyed by the very rats that the pythons on the dance floor should be eating.

The attitude that going out to collect snakes from the wild to sell is dangerous. I have seen people go to the southeast and brag about bringing back over 50 scarlet kings to sit at a herp show and sell. Makes me want to pop them in the mouth.

Harvesting wildlife should not be a business.
Greed will only make the issue spiral until everything is gone.

I think people should be able to collect a limited number of animals for their personal use. But the people who go out collecting scores of racers and ringnecks and box turtles to "wholesale" or sell or sell the open market should be doing time.

....

I 'm not talking about personal or commercial or anything like that. I am referring to each animal as an individual and how you are taking it from its natural home. I love animals and hate to see one for any reason taken from its home and put in a captive enviroment for any reason. That may sound cheesy but its how I feel. It is more than just a hobby to me it is a passion because I look at each one as an individual and not as a whole. You may not be effecting the wild population but you are effecting that one particular snake or any other kind of animal you are taking.

Well you could also look at it this way:

That same animal that was taken out of the wild will now:
1) No longer have to worry about becoming a meal for something else

2) Have a steady supply of food and water

3) Not have to worry about parasites or diseases

4) Not have to worry about finding a suitable place to hole up for the winter.

So it could be a positive thing too.
Brian

>>I 'm not talking about personal or commercial or anything like that. I am referring to each animal as an individual and how you are taking it from its natural home. I love animals and hate to see one for any reason taken from its home and put in a captive enviroment for any reason. That may sound cheesy but its how I feel. It is more than just a hobby to me it is a passion because I look at each one as an individual and not as a whole. You may not be effecting the wild population but you are effecting that one particular snake or any other kind of animal you are taking.
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

thats just how the ecosystem works and its there way of life.

What you are talking about (it sounds like)
is a quality of life issue. Is their quility of life better and are they "happier" in the wild.

I guess it's a debatable issue.
You can make the arguement that most snakes spend 90% of their lives in seclusion, underground, or in someway inactive.

The only time they are moving is when they need food, water, thermoregulation, to breed etc. It's hard to put yourself in a snake's shoes, (first of all, b/c they don't have any feet )
but...human and snake awareness and "emotion" are just so different.

Some people would argue they are not capable of boredom.
Others would strongly disagree.

I'm on the fence on this issue.
Maybe one day we will look back on the days of keeping snakes in sterile containers and talk about how unethical it was.

or...maybe we'll prove that the snakes really don't mind.

I have had captive snake that got loose only to return. I think snakes can be happy and comfortable in captivity but thats not the point either. Even that snake that returned is in a locked cage, because his desire to stay will change. No creature wants to have its will constrained even if its better off. A snake born in the wild, may not have eaten as well and may have not have been happy at all, but it enjoyed a freedom of will to choose how and where it would live given the constraints of nature, and would abandoned even the best environments to regain that freedom even if it meant certain death. You can easily test this by leaving the top off your cage. I am certain that the desire for freedom is regardless of comfort or consequence, and the more of it a creature knows, the less it will tolerate captivity.

Okay, I agree that wildcaught snakes are less happy in captivity, but without them we wouldn't have captive bred snakes of any kind. Even with existing captive bred populations, new blood is necessary to maintain them. I would agree to the distinction that it's not right to have a wild caught snake as a pet with no intention of breeding it.

>>I think the one point that jon was trying to make was taking snakes from the wild to sell.
>>
>>I think that sucks. Period.
>>
>>Taking snakes from certain locals to add to your personal collection / start or add new animals to a breeding project is a different story.
>>
>>Jon mentioned people selling wc black racers for $5 a piece.
>>I personally think that is unethical.
>>
>>See a box turtle, see $5.
>>See a corn snake, see $10
>>
>>This is the mentality that will destroy wild populations of herps. ANY herps. Not just the ones that are already in trouble.
>>
>>Like the people in Asia who will butcher every python they see to send the skins to America so some wanna-be cowboy can be a tough guy in his snake skin boots when he goes line dancing.
>>They are poor, and the demand is there. But then over half of their crop is destroyed by the very rats that the pythons on the dance floor should be eating.
>>
>>The attitude that going out to collect snakes from the wild to sell is dangerous. I have seen people go to the southeast and brag about bringing back over 50 scarlet kings to sit at a herp show and sell. Makes me want to pop them in the mouth.
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>>Harvesting wildlife should not be a business.
>>Greed will only make the issue spiral until everything is gone.
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>>I think people should be able to collect a limited number of animals for their personal use. But the people who go out collecting scores of racers and ringnecks and box turtles to "wholesale" or sell or sell the open market should be doing time.
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

What difference is it if I catch a wild caught cornsnake or buy one from another collector? If a commercial collector catches 100 snakes and sells them to 100 people thats bad, but if 100 people collect there own snake thats not? To me its the same thing and the problem with both are the same. I believe that their are justifiable reasons for having wild caught snakes and that collecting can be done correctly, however, I don't beleive that the current laws take into account all that they should. I believe that more should be done to protect diversity within a species. Local populations can be unique and should be protected. That would effect development, as well as, collecting. I also feel that the older a snake is the more important that snake is to the health of the gene pool. An established adult snake has proven itself genetically fit and should be allow to remain and reproduce.

Between commercial collection and collection for private use.

If a breeder wants to go out and collect a few snakes to create a breeding colony, he does it, and then (hopefully) doesn't need to take any more. He then does a service to conservation by offering healthy captive born offsring, thus taking away the need for many people to want to collect their own.

A commercial collector is like a parasite.
They collect animals to sell. When the animals are gone, they collect more. And so on. Each person who BUYS from a commercial collector is contributing to the raping of the environment.

By supporting him, you are putting him right back out there catching more animals to satisfy the demand. Many of these people don't even have an interest in the animals. People who collect an animal here or there for themselves are usually people who love the animals, and would not intentionally damage a population.

Commercial collectors are interested in one thing only. Money.
And when all the snakes are gone, they will be perfectly happy selling frogs or turtles or crack cocaine.

there are many collectors who are breeders as well and have breeding projects. If I am a breeder and I buy from a collector does that then justify the collector? It's simple math 100 snakes taken from the wild is 100 snakes taken from the wild, wether or not they were taken by individuals or a collector and then sold to those indivduals. Same net results 100 individuals own 100 wild caught snakes, as far as breeding is concerned, I also believe that captive bred animals reduce the number of wild caughts demanded and help conservation. The really enemy is not the collector, he is just a middle man suppling a demand. Yes, as long as the demand exist the collector will continue to collect unless regulation is in place to stop him, and even though he could care less if he selling reptiles or crack,it doesn't matter because as soon as the demand stopped so would he. And the enemy is not necessarily the person who buys from the collector either, as they could be breeders and are vindicated for having wild caught snakes as you have indicated. The real bad guy therefore, is the pet keeper who buys a wild caught snake, or even a captive bred as far as I am concerned with no intention of breeding it. Every snake they own reduces potential captive bred specimens and creates and support the demand for more wild caught snakes. Not every snake owner need to be a breeder, but if pet owners, as aposed to breeders, were required to buy only captive bred snakes, then the financial benifits of breeding snakes like the black racer would exist. Breeding would increase and demand for wild caught snakes would diminish and the collectors would switch to selling crack, problem solved.

one more point I'd like to make is that if you go by Keynesian economics, which has dominated American economics since the great depression, demand creates supply not the other way around. In other words, you can't support the hobbist demand for wild caught snakes and condem commercial collecting for supplying that demand. No snake would be collected if the demand didn't exist. Another point in support of commercial collectors, A commercial collect is subject to permits, quotas and regulation, and so are hobbiest, but there is no way to control how many hobbiest are collecting, their methods or locations.