Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This post derives from the “Has anyone heard of two Labyrinth balls producing all black snakes?” thread that started in this forum on Dec. 13. In that thread, several people wrote that the black or cocoa ball came from Gulf Coast's 'Labyrinth' line of Cinnamon Pastel. IOW, the cinnamon pastel was the heterozygous form (with a cinnamon pastel mutant gene paired with a normal gene), and the cocoa was the homozygous form (with a pair of cinnamon pastel mutant genes).

This interpretation may be true. It satisfies Occam’s Razor. OTOH, the name “cinnamon pastel” makes the cinnamon pastel phenotype sound lighter than normal. I’d expect the homozygote to be as light or lighter than a heterozygote. And black is recessive to normal in the eastern garter snake.

So, here is an alternative hypothesis. Black is caused by a recessive mutant gene, and cinnamon pastel is an independent dominant or codominant mutant gene. After all, trying to produce a homozygous cinnamon pastel requires inbreeding, and inbreeding can produce homozygous individuals from a pair that are heterozygous for unsuspected recessive mutant genes.

If the alternative hypothesis pans out, then cocoa could be the combination of black and cinnamon pastel. And the homozygous black mutant, without cinnamon pastel, could produce a jet black color. I'd love to see that in a ball python!

Testing this hypothesis could involve mating at least one cocoa to at least one normal ball python and seeing what the F1 babies look like. If at least one F1 was normal, then the cocoa could not be homozygous cinnamon pastel. The next step would be to mate two normal F1s together and see if any blacks appear among the F2 babies.

I know practically nothing about the matings in Gulf Coast’s line. Please shoot this idea down with data!

Paul Hollander

Hi Paul, I don't know if this would be considered proof to shoot down your hypothesis since I don't know the particulars, but from what I've been able to understand there are at least 3 distinct lines (probably more) of a mutation that all look similar to each other. These different lines have been independently proven to have their look inherited by their offspring in some kind of dominant fashion. These lines have been called 'Labyrinth' By Gulf Coast reptiles for their line. 'Cinnamon Pastel' by Graziani for his line, and 'Black Pastel' by someone else (don't remember who) for their line.

All of these lines originated from wild caught imported specimens. To further confuse things, there are other people who also have wild caught imports that have called their animals cinnamon pastels based on the looks of the animal without knowing if they are compatible with the existing line of cinnamon pastel.

Now Gulf Coast Reptiles has proven that when mating two of their labyrinth balls together, they can produce solid black/brown snakes. However they aren't the only ones to have done so. Someone else (BHB I think??) has also produced a black looking ball python from their line of cinnamon pastels which were not from Gulf Coasts labyrinth line.

While it's not iron clad proof, I think that two different breeders independently producing similar results from similar looking animals of different lines lends a lot of credence to the idea that the black ball IS the homozygous form of the heterozygous cinnamon pastel/labyrinth/black pastel snakes.

Mark

>>This post derives from the “Has anyone heard of two Labyrinth balls producing all black snakes?” thread that started in this forum on Dec. 13. In that thread, several people wrote that the black or cocoa ball came from Gulf Coast's 'Labyrinth' line of Cinnamon Pastel. IOW, the cinnamon pastel was the heterozygous form (with a cinnamon pastel mutant gene paired with a normal gene), and the cocoa was the homozygous form (with a pair of cinnamon pastel mutant genes).
>>
>>This interpretation may be true. It satisfies Occam’s Razor. OTOH, the name “cinnamon pastel” makes the cinnamon pastel phenotype sound lighter than normal. I’d expect the homozygote to be as light or lighter than a heterozygote. And black is recessive to normal in the eastern garter snake.
>>
>>So, here is an alternative hypothesis. Black is caused by a recessive mutant gene, and cinnamon pastel is an independent dominant or codominant mutant gene. After all, trying to produce a homozygous cinnamon pastel requires inbreeding, and inbreeding can produce homozygous individuals from a pair that are heterozygous for unsuspected recessive mutant genes.
>>
>>If the alternative hypothesis pans out, then cocoa could be the combination of black and cinnamon pastel. And the homozygous black mutant, without cinnamon pastel, could produce a jet black color. I'd love to see that in a ball python!
>>
>>Testing this hypothesis could involve mating at least one cocoa to at least one normal ball python and seeing what the F1 babies look like. If at least one F1 was normal, then the cocoa could not be homozygous cinnamon pastel. The next step would be to mate two normal F1s together and see if any blacks appear among the F2 babies.
>>
>>I know practically nothing about the matings in Gulf Coast’s line. Please shoot this idea down with data!
>>
>>Paul Hollander

I'd like more information, but your data does make my idea look shaky. Thanks.

Paul Hollander

Yah, I hope someone else will chime in to fill in the gaps.

Mark

>>I'd like more information, but your data does make my idea look shaky. Thanks.
>>
>>Paul Hollander

I don't think BHB has a web page, does he?

I knew about him producing an apparent homozygous cinnamon solid colored ball too from somewhere. Could it have been an RDR Journal entry? Anyone remember where/when?

How about the imported paternless ball that Ralph brought in and the one that Tracy hatched. Do they have anything to do with the cinnamon/labyrinth? Maybe they'll both breed this year and we'll know more. I think initialy Tracy said the parents of her patternless where normal but that was back before cinnamon came on the scene and to me some cinnamons are fairly normal looking (at least in pictures). I’m sure the first few cinnamons posted on this site received a chorus of “normal” replies and I was skeptical of Graziani’s site supporting them as a morph before he produced the pewter crossing them with pastel. I bet this coming breeding season will answer lots of questions as I would expect more cinnamon X cinnamon breedings from a variety of lines.

Randy, it's in the June 19th Journal entry on Ralphs site. Just a picture but when you mouse over the pic it tells you a bit about it. I don't think that the patternless balls are the same thing... They have basically the same color as the normal ball pythons just without a pattern. I WOULD however like to see a pattenless mated to a stripe just to see what turned up. I just think that the pattenless looks a lot like an extreme stripe to me. I guess time will tell.

Mark

>>I don't think BHB has a web page, does he?
>>
>>I knew about him producing an apparent homozygous cinnamon solid colored ball too from somewhere. Could it have been an RDR Journal entry? Anyone remember where/when?
>>

So what happens when you breed a cinnamon pastel to a black pastel or a labrynth? If still get a black/brown patternless snake who has to give up their name??

Too confusing so many names since no one has checked if the lines are compatible. Can't it be simple like, VPI axanthic, Joliff snow, nope have to have completely different names to confuse me. LOL, doesn't help that I confuse easy to begin with!
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Nita Hamilton
4.9 Normal BP's, 1.0 Het Orange Ghost BP
On the way 1.0 Het Pied 0.4 Normal BP's

I don't know, thats a good question. I suppose that the market will dictate what people end up calling it. Naming conventions can get confusing sometimes. I know other people working with new projects that they are calling labyrinth that have nothing to do with gulf coasts labyrinth project. At the same time we have numberous names for what appears to be the same mutation. However, we also have others naming their projects after these animals based on similar looks that in the end, may turn out to be completely different mutations.

Mark

>>So what happens when you breed a cinnamon pastel to a black pastel or a labrynth? If still get a black/brown patternless snake who has to give up their name??
>>
>>Too confusing so many names since no one has checked if the lines are compatible. Can't it be simple like, VPI axanthic, Joliff snow, nope have to have completely different names to confuse me. LOL, doesn't help that I confuse easy to begin with!
>>-----
>>Nita Hamilton
>>4.9 Normal BP's, 1.0 Het Orange Ghost BP
>>On the way 1.0 Het Pied 0.4 Normal BP's