Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi All,

My dragons appear to be mating. But, it seems like he is hurting her. He bites the back of her neck. She struggles a bit - sometimes more than others. Tonight I am sure it is mating, yet here I am asking. Her tail is lifted and he seems to be in position (ok now I feel silly). Should I just let this happen. Should I separate them. I have no intention of incubating or anything. So, what are your recommendations?

Thanks,
Robin

Mother to 3 dogs
2 kid
2 beardies (Draco and Draca)

Thanks

If you have no intention of incubating then why do you have 2 adults housed together? Yes, those are breeding signs. No, you should not be doing it. Breeding is very stressful on females, why would you do it if you have no intention of raising the babies? They should be separated immediately and never come in contact with each other again.

Sean
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Heart Mountain Herps

Well - They were sold as a pair and like I stated in my post - We have had them for two years. This is the first sign of this type of activity - Saw it once a few days ago and now tonight - And jumped right on here for advice. As a rule they really seem to enjoy being together. We have a huge 200 gallon tank - so they have plenty of room. Is it possible to separate them for a while? Is it good for them to live alone? Aren't we all happier when we have a friend? After 2 years of being together - is it just the maturity level - so now I have to separate them? I know we all grow and change. I just did not expect this. I am not looking to be bashed - I am looking for friendly advice. I have seen many kind responses to people's questions here.

Thanks!

Ok, sorry if I jumped your butt too hard, it's been a long day and I'm a little short right now. Anyway, yes they still need separated. If you don't they will breed, if they haven't already. It's not just the one breeding that does you in, beardies retain sperm and can refertilize several clutches from 1 breeding. Sometimes after living together for long periods they turn into old married couples (not much breeding) but they will still do it. Beardies do fine alone, better IMO, they are solitary creatures by nature.

Sean
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Heart Mountain Herps

Remember too, breeding causes repeat cycling and the female can be gravid several times a year from breeding. Recovering from one egg laying is rough on some and is harder to recover with each repeat laying.

This is not something that is normally good for the female. You also will want to already be set up with a good herp vet if there are problems and have a lay box prepared for the first signs she needs to lay, if not provided properly they can become egg bound and need surgery. SHe will need increase calciuma during the time she is gravid, and chances are she already is, but the male will continue to try and breed her. You certainly need to separate them after she lays the eggs, that can be damaging to her if he tries to breed her again then and she needs time to recover and put weight back on

One other thing, you say there were sold as a pair... do you know if they are siblings? If that is at all possible, you should never incubate the eggs or allow anyone else too. Thats a good formula for heartache.
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www.reptilerooms.com

I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I am not 100% sure that they are not siblings. I think that they are NOT. She is much larger than him. I will follow the advice and do an opaque separater. As the 200 gallon tank is Huge and 1/2 should be enough for each of them.

My reptile vet has 2 beardies in her waiting room - HUGE - Like in the Wild - at least 4inches wide and long long long - and they are together. I believe they are both male, though.

Anyhoo, Thanks again, and I will call my vet and/or do research on how to prep for her. How long is gestation?

Your post was helpful.

Robin

I don't have much advice, but I thought I would make you feel better. I have the same scenario. We got two because they seemed to absolutely be bonded to one another. I finally checked underneath and found we have a male and female, having secretly prayed for two females. I had no intention of raising babies, but should they come along, or more specifically WHEN they DO come along, I have now decided to make the best go of it. I have friends who will take babies and a couple local shops that will purchase from non-professional breeders. Should repeated breeding become too much for the female, we will then permanently separate them.

Perhaps you know a friend or relative who would take the eggs, incubate them, and raise the little ones to a sale-able age. Maybe a local science or elementary teacher. Be creative and give them a chance to hatch and become someone's pet.

Best wishes with your decision. There are plenty of good resources online and in books to prepare you or some adventurous person you find who will take on the task.
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Cara Fusinato
Fresno, CA

2 dogs - Quasar, Holly
4 cats - Aurora, Osten, Gypsy, Pierre
2 scorpions - Fido, Rover
2 Pac Man frogs - Herman, Chubbs
2 Bearded Dragons - Sydney, Amery

If you do not want to( I mean really want to) raise babies I wouldn't risk my female's health and even life by repeated breedings. She can become eggbound, deplete her calcium stores, become stressed, etc. Beardies can have 20-30 eggs. Are you ready to raise that many babies? They are expensive to feed and if you house too many together, they will attack each other. These are living creatures. I would not leave this to chance. Just my two cents. I would really think about it.
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Stacey

There are a few other reasons why you should not let the babies hatch if you dont want to raise them. Number one, of course, is the reasons Stacey mentioned about it being a horrible toll on the female dragon. Number two, as you do not know if they are not siblings for totally sure, then the babies, if hatched, could be deformed, or carry disfigured genes. THEN, if sold or given away, they could be bred, permanently wounding the USA bearded dragon bloodline even worse. There are SO MANY breeders out their that sell "pairs" that are brother and sister, and most of the unknowing people who buy the related pairs breed them, resulting in inbred babies and bad genes. These babies are, in turn, given away or sold to other people who dont know they are inbred. Some of those inbred dragons are bred, resulting in MORE dragons with disfigured genes. This depletes the GOOD healthy dragons in this country little by little. Also, there are so many full time breeders, hobbyist breeders, and small business breeders out there that the industry is FLOODED with babies. If you seriously dont want the babies, please dont let them breed or let the eggs hatch. There are SO MANY dragons out there that people can get for dirt cheap, and this hurts the businesses that do it for a living.

On a lighter note, at least you came looking for help! Most people would have just gone ahead and do it. Go ahead and seperate them, and if the female should lay, give her EXTRA calcium, and a laying bin. When she is digging a lot, put her in a laying bin (consisting of damp potting soil, damp enough so that if a hole is dug it wont cave in). Once she is done, give her a good soak, lots of food dusted in calcium, and let her bask/rest.

Now for the eggs - you can do a variety of things to get rid of them. Best thing is to slit open each one, and dump the yolk down the drain. This may seem a little morbid, if you will, but it is the only way to ensure that the eggs dont hatch in a trash heap somewhere.

Good luck, keep us posted, and sorry for the rant.

David - KDRKreatures
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KDRKreatures.com
Exotic Reptile Breeders - Specializing in Bearded Dragons

Email

Maybe they never mated before because they just weren't ready (luckily for you and her, it could have killed her if he decided to mate w/ her at say, 6 months old.) Now that they are of sexual maturity, nature is taking over, the male will constantly want to mate with her. That will put incredible stress on her body, which is especially pointless if you don't plan on incubating the eggs. Even if you did, most breeders will recommend only putting the pair together during mating season and seperating the rest of the year to reduce stress.

Bearded dragons do not make "friends." Even in the wild, they do not mate for life like other creatures; they meet, mate, and go on their way. They are solitary animals, do not have social groups. To make them occupy the same small space 365 days a year is quite unnatural for them, in reality. You're actually very lucky they've gone this far with no problems, as a general rule males should be seperated from all other dragons no later than 6 months, as they can do quite a bit of damage to males and females when they become sexually mature.

Seperating them you will probably notice a big difference in their behavior, and you may interpret this as them being loney and missing their pals. Remind yourself that they are not like us, they have a reptile brain and simply aren't that complex. They have gotten used to having each other around and they will behave differently when seperated, but it is the best thing you can do for them in the long run.

Also, read up on how to make a laying spot for the female, if she does become gravid from these matings she'll need a spot to lay the eggs so as not to become eggbound. She'll also be needing extra calcium suppliments. So even if you don't incubate the eggs, now you know that you've got some studying up to do so she can carry them and lay them in safe health.
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
1.0 pictus gecko (Nicodemus)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
0.0.1 tarantula (Calcifer)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

We made that mistake with our first 2 girls. Even though they were both female, one became dominant and our other tried to starve herself to death. They were so good together for a few weeks, but now if you put them together they get a little agitated. Don't forget that these creatures only seek company when they need to procreate. They are solitary as stated before, I would say tojust stick an opaque divider down the center of your tank, 100 gallons a piece should be enough

Cheryl
Beach Dragons and Reptiles

I just wanted to say that I personally see value in the fact that you have successfully kept the two together for the past couple years (I am inferring from your post that both animals are healthy). If such is the case, then there are ways to continue to do so (allowing for good nesting when she needs to lay, periods of separation if necessary, etc.) I think to say that they should never be allowed to breed (much less come into contact with one another) if you do not plan on incubating is somewhat silly and selfish (no offense to anyone just my opinion). To me that kind of thinking only places value on reproduction from the standpoint of the keeper (eggs,babies,money and whatever we may enjoy about the results). It does not allow for value to be placed on reproduction/interaction for the sake of the animals. I don't know that it is any more cruel to allow the animal to experience the "stresses" of reproduction than it is to keep them solitary in a cage their entire lives with no interaction with their own kind (what they are designed for) - with no life events. Please understand I don't know if/how the animals feel about it either, we are all just speculating and being anthropomorphic (not sure if this is the right word). We keep animals in cages. There is nothing more selfish than that - "what's best for them" is often whatever we say it is.

I'm just saying, again, that I personally see value in what you have done with your animals so far by letting them experience something above and beyond solitary confinement (which by the way I also do so no holier than thou to anyone here). Just a different perspective on things is all. I know my opinions may not be popular but that's what is so great about opinions...

Good luck with your animals, whatever you do.

Ian

Ian - The problem with it is this:

The toll on the female dragon with the egglaying process is TREMENDOUS! It takes tons of work for the keeper and a whole bunch more for the female dragon. It is not something that they "enjoy" doing, but they do it to further their existance of their species (of course they dont know there are many more dragons out there) - but nevertheless, it is INSTINCT! Reproduction and mating may be valued by us, but (no offense to anyone here) these reptiles do not "enjoy" anything. The 3 things that go through their head is food, sleep, and reproduction. They dont need another dragon with them to "spice up" their lives. They are perfectly content with themselves, they dont need entertainment. That is why they travel solo in the wild, if they enjoyed other dragons company they would travel in herds or something. Breeding should only be kept to the people who want to breed. Breeding for the sake of breeding, and then not wanting the eggs isnt good, the female isnt enjoying it, and her body is getting devoid of all nutrients, as those nutrients go to the eggs. Ive had a female almost DIE because she had a clutch of 35 in her system, she wasnt that large, and right after she laid she collapsed. The vet took her in and she was good after that, thank god. Im lucky I was home to take her there, otherwise she may have died. Letting this happen when the eggs arnt wanted is ..no offense.. idiotic. It hurts the female too much.

And plus, the babies could be inbred in this case, and all the other reasons I stated in the above post.

Sorry for another rant here, and sorry if I offended anyone, but this is how I see it.

David - KDRKreatures

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KDRKreatures.com
Exotic Reptile Breeders - Specializing in Bearded Dragons

Email

Hi David,

I am of the belief that the toll that breeding takes on a female is greatly influenced by the husbandry and support provided to her by the keeper. Not entirely obviously but very much so. This is to say that the level of support can vary tremendously and that variation will cause various levels of "success" and failure with the animals. In captivity,
the responsibility regarding any "problems" the animals have doing what they are designed to do (in this case reproducing) falls squarely in the lap of the keeper. The limitations in the understanding of the keeper and the conditions they provide relate directly to the limitations of the animal. In my mind reproduction ("successful reproduction" - high hatch rates, healthy robust babies and a minimal impact on mom) is the byproduct of a satisfactory level of husbandry. If someone is experiencing complications with reproduction and severe tolls on their animals, they need to take a look at their husbandry and the level of support they are providing. Period. The animals are capable of a huge range of success and failure well beyond our understanding I'm sure. It is completely up to us to better that understanding and support and raise the level of success over time.

As far as what the animals do and do not enjoy or feel, again we are all speculating - unless of course you are a bearded dragon. But as I mentioned, we are all entitled to our opinions.

If Robin was truthful in stating that she has not intention of hatching eggs then the potential for inbreeding is not of concern at this time.

Thanks and good luck with your animals.

Ian

Sean, thanks! Right between the eyes. When are people going to realize most of these animals prefer a solitary existence and rarely come together except to mate.

Yes, our dragons are super healthy. I see pictures of lots of dragons, ours are large and filled out and move like lighting across the cage. We take them out and they explore. They are in great shape.

My mom had bought a beardie for my son from the Flea Market (swap meet). We did not know much about them then - just that my son wanted one. It turned out he had the bone disease, 2 broken legs and was in horrible shape. Spent a fortune at the vet, babied him like crazy and the guy died on EASTER Sunday and the day before my son's birthday. And it was an ugly, thrashing death, but happened in only minutes. Our family cried for days.

This is why we bought him this pair from the pet shop. He had seen them there when we went to buy supplies for our Draco.

So, being a mother and loving my son and not wanting to see him go through those tears and anguish again, I bought the book, I talked talked talked to the pet store owner and workers (small store, they have quite a few dragons). It is and always has been my goal to make sure they are healthy. We had a smaller tank - the first chance I got, I bought this 200 gallon tank. They are smack dab in our living room, so they can get lots of interaction. We love them. Am I an expert - NO, but I have kept them healthy and flourishing for nearly two years - bought them on April 23, 2003 - so come April == 2 years!!

Thanks to all of you for your posts.

Robin

Sounds like you are taking care of them very well Robin. You seem to care a lot about them, and that accounts for a large, healthy, spoiled dragon!! Just the way we like em!!

David - KDRKreatures
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KDRKreatures.com
Exotic Reptile Breeders - Specializing in Bearded Dragons

Email

You've done very well with them and should be commended! I wish al parents were as dedicated to ensuring proper care for their children's pets.

As you did buy them together from the same store, I can say with 99% confidence that they are siblings. So under no condition should you allow any eggs to hatch and try to give them away to friends and petstores as someone mentioned earlier. That is right out. I do think seperation would be best, but if for any reason you decide to leave them together, destroy all eggs that come of it.

I know you'll do the right thing.
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
1.0 pictus gecko (Nicodemus)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
0.0.1 tarantula (Calcifer)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)