Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I continue to get unwarranted harassment from persons who have a hard time with my wanting to refer to snakes based on their geographical locale, not based on political states (whose names & borders often change).

Example: Sonoran Black Kingsnake, or Western Black Kingsnake, rather than Mexican Black Kingsnake.

For those able to put aside juvenile chiding and a knee-jerk reaction for a moment, let's practice an exercise in logic & reason:

1) Do we call the Eastern Black the Kentucky Black?
2) How often have Taxonomists changed the spelling of various scientific names? Several times in the last 20 years. Remember when they called it "getulus", rather than the correct "getula"?
3) The Desert Kingsnake is not the only one found in the Desert. Many are, so why only that species named "Desert"?
4) The Sonoran Mountain Kingsnake is found in the mountains of the Arizona Upland, not in Sonora. It is more correctly named the AZ Mountain Kingsnake.
5) Remember the creature called the Horny Toad? It's actually a Horned Lizard.

Obviously, just because SOMEBODY named them before we knew them, even if the names do NOT make sense, we do not need to continue the folly. We can make new choices based on scientific evidence.

At some point, logic & reason will win, some species will be renamed to better reflect their traits or region of origin, and the persons who mock me because I defend my assertions with logic & reason, and specific examples, will suddenly realize that they cannot defend THEIR assertions with logic, reason & specific examples.

Looks like I've just made some important points...

I dont really disagree with you on your points but the fact remains you are referring to common names and they dont mean jack. So to all those folks hassling you grow up and respect someones right to call a snake by one of its accepted common names. Eastern Kings are sometimes called the a Swamp Wamper, Rattlesnake Pilot, Chain King and the ever infamous Bastard Horn Snake. Now these arent really used these days but if someone used one who cares as its simply a common name !

Keith
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Hey Keith,

Yes, you are correct about the common names, it' just what they are. I wasn't trying to upset anybody, nor shoot down his choice of what to call a nigrita. I was just trying to point out in a good natured way that if he was going to refuse to use "temporary political boundries" he had to be consistant, and that "Cal King" and "Sonoran Black" both had political references.

Cheers,

Rich

I appreciate your comments.

It's often impossible to get a common name to fit any species, which is why I pointed out that we have Latin.

Personally I prefer Latin to avoid confusion.It's standard all around the world. For common names I think we should just stick to what everybody is familiar with for the same reason. And if one were going to refuse to use political terms for one species you have to be consistant and not use political tems for other species such as "Cal =California King"

But, if I were going try to change things, for L.g.nigrita I would personally consider Western Black king acceptable. Sonoran Black refers either to the desert or to the state of Sonora. Niether fits as it is not limited to Sonora, nor is it really an animal of the Sonoran Desert biome. I have found several dozen both in Az. and Sonora and they actually occur in desert scrub and desert grassland that would be considered an extension of Chihuahuan Desert, despite the political boundries.

As for L.pyromelana. Yes, "Sonoran Mt. King" is very in-appropriate as only a small portion of the range is in Sonora. But it has just as much range (possibly more, we don't really know the southern boundries yet)in Chihuahua. "Az. Mountain King" is fitting only for the nominate form but then some could argue that this is not so because the nominate form also occurs in New Mexico. "Madrean Mt. King" is more fitting and has been used in the past by some (Lowe, Schwalbe and Johnson) but then again some could argue that L.mexicana greeri also occurs in the Sierra Madre occidental and deserved that name just as much. There often is no common name that everybody finds acceptable. My friends and I once spent a whole week while we were in Mexico playing with finding a more appropriate name for Crotalus oreganus cerberus, the "Az. Black Rattlesnake" It is not limited to Az. and very rarely is it truly black in color, but usually some shade of gray, brown, green tan or yellow. After a week and hundreds of recomendations that were all shot down for one reason or another, the only thing that could be agreed upon was "rattlesnake" It is much easier to simply call them "cerberus" or "cerbs". Just no easy fix,

Cheers,

Rich

Interesting we are talking about the Sonoran Mtn. King too, Rich. I know it's one of your favorites, and mine also. I don't mind the common name, as I can't really think of any better suited. AZ mtn. king and Madrean don't apply, as you stated.

I don't think my post fits in really well here, but I thought I'd add it anyway, or I'd probably never bring it up. Living in Northern Michigan I don't get much chance to see kingsnakes. The one that is common here is the Eastern milksnake, which I think has lots in common with the pyros, although it is much less attractive. I've been studying it for years and keep a couple of them.

Actually, "Eastern" doesn't apply too well to the snake which is in the Midwest in Michigan and several other states, and in the South in KY, TN, GA, AL, and several other states. When we were kids growing up we used to call it the "Red Kingsnake", as that's what the common name was in the Golden Book field guide. I think red kingsnake is much more glamorous than Eastern milksnake and still use that name from time to time. They make interesting pets...

Sorry about the tangent. I guess I just wanted something in the conversation that wasn't in the West.

TC

I don't think you went off on a tangent! It is definately pertinent to the subject. I remember that little "Golden Book Of Reptiles" It was my first! I first saw it when I was four, I was already catching regal horned lizards in teh back yard but I couldn't run fast enough to catch any of the other lizards yet. I fell in love with the collared lizard on the cover and pestered my mom till she bought it for me. Was actually quite a good little book!

Thanks, Rich. I loved the little Golden Book. I can still remember some of the photos like it was yesterday. Actually, they were drawings and seemed to make the animals greater than they really were. I saw the red king as the master of all snakes and crawling over fences and walls, etc. I still have that vision of them being the best, haha.

TC

I envy that you have actually traveled to the Sonoran Desert. I want to so much that it hurts! It's such a beautiful, unique place. (Ironwood trees can grow up to 45 feet!)

Have you really seen or captured dozens of Nigritas? Most impressive! Yes, I know that their range overlaps into Sinaloa and adjacent areas of the Sonoran Desert.

Thanks for your insight!

have spent my entire life in Az. I now live in the mountains in Flagstaff. Started catching snakes in Mexico while on fishing trips with my dad when I was a little kid. Never stopped, lol.

I agree, Just use the scientific (Latin) name and there is no confusion.
Read 'em, Learn 'em, Use 'em.
This is my opinion,
-John Lassiter-

>>At some point, logic & reason will win, some species will be renamed to better reflect their traits or region of origin, and the persons who mock me because I defend my assertions with logic & reason, and specific examples, will suddenly realize that they cannot defend THEIR assertions with logic, reason & specific examples.
>>
>>Looks like I've just made some important points...

Depends on who you've convinced. I don't want to argue with you 'cus it's a work day and I have to leave soon, but I see the point you're trying to make and wouldn't mind commenting on it (no mockery intended), and also would comment on your methods here. You have to realize though that as soon as you post an opinion on anything you open yourself up to the scrutiny of the world wide web.

A common name is just that, whatever is accepted as most common. It can change from region to region, etc. I don't mind you trying to change a common name to something more appropriate, as a matter of fact, that's the main reason I'm responding, but it has to be something folks are willing to change to.

You've picked a pretty good name to work on, but let's look at some more logic and reason with it (not that logic and reason always wins out). If you say, Mexican kingsnake, that's really inappropriate, imho, because it also applies to other snakes, however, Mexican black king is, ok, because I now know what you're talking about. I also think Western black king could work, as well as Sonoran black king. It isn't because of the political name, however.

I'm not going to use a whole host of examples, but I do have a favorite that I've been working with for a long time, and that's the South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Elaphe dione. The species, dione, has the largest range of any ratsnake in the world, but the race I'm working with comes specifically from the Korean Peninsula and the country of South Korea, although it may overlap slightly into North Korea. The species is called, the Steppes Ratsnake. The form I work with is not classed as a subspecies, but it does have noticeable morphological differences from the rest of the species and I think deserves at least a distinct common name. If it catches on, great. If it doesn't, I've tried. But there's no geographical identity that fits this snake, so I use the political state it's most common in.

My point is that, what works best will win out. If you can make a common name that fits and is accepted by the hobby, etc, great. If not, don't feel bad

Terry

Not to beat a dead horse, but I just thought it would be fun to post pics of another black king from another state...


Caught this little guy in s. Ohio last summer with some friends. I think it's near the northern extreme of their range.

Eastern black kingsnake works well for me as the common name of this subspecies, but saying 'Ohio black king' tells me what part of the range it came from. TC.

>> 1) Do we call the Eastern Black the Kentucky Black?

I appreciate the curteous response of others in attempts to give you an answer, but your whole essay is mute considering how many conflictions you make between your own arguements. If you have issues with the way people are responding to you - take it up with them personally!

And after all - the snakes don't care what we call them, isn't that what really matters??? Peace

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Matt from Minnesota
Cornsnake, Eastern Kingsnake, IL Bullsnake - all girls.
0.1 Crested Gecko "Camey"; 1.0 Crested Gecko "Spots" RIP

Of confusion, I tend to follow up the common name with the scintific name.

No common name is more "right" than another. It's like I may call
a can of pepsi a "pop" and someone else looks at me like I'm nuts and says, "no, that's a soda".

With herps though, some common names are very close, and sometimes one common name better describes a DIFFERENT animal than the one that it commonly refers to.

Example, Black Kingsnake would be perfect to describe L.g. nigrita. BUT, the L.g. nigra was probably called the black king long before anyone in this country (at least in the easten US) had ever seen a nigrita. So...we call the snake with the faint yellow pattern and the bright yellow and black belly the "black king" and the solid black snake the "Mexican black king"

Some common names are pretty unmistakable. Ex. Black Racer, smooth green snake, etc.

I will say "Cal king"...or "honduran milk" b/c pretty much everyone I speak to is going to understand that. But...I usually say "sysplia" instead of red milk, and "nigrita" instead of Mexican black king.

I don't think it makes sense to confuse people by trying to use names that "make more sense". When in doubt, use the scientific name, or the common name followed by the scientific name. It's hard to argue with that.

People love to say "I am right and you are wrong" about a lot of things.

It's often a lot more complex than that.

"How often have Taxonomists changed the spelling of various scientific names? Several times in the last 20 years. Remember when they called it "getulus", rather than the correct "getula"? "

The endings of scientific names do follow rules. I am no expert on Kings but I can tell you something about changes to the spellings used with American Rat Snakes.

At one time all rat snakes were in the genus Elapha. The "A" ending indicates a feminine noun. All adjectives in Latin must agree with their noun in number and gender. So the Common Black Rat Snake was Elapha obsoleta obsoleta. Now, there is a move to create a new genus for American Rat Snakes. The new genus is named Pantherophis. So the Black Rat Snake goes from Elapha obsoleta obsoleta to Pantherophis obsoletus obsoletus. You might also note that the Gulf Hammock Rat Snake, Elapha obsoleta williamsi, became Pantherophis obsoletus williamsi. The "I" ending used in williamsi is still the same because williamsi is not an adjective but a possessive form of a noun.

Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.

Rick

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