Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As far as I know, there is still debate over the type of gene that causes the patternlessness in Pine snakes. I just had 6 eggs hatch that were the result of breeding a 100% normal female Northern Pine to a patternless Southern Pine. I have read conflicting theories on what to expect out of these. As it turns out, all 6 of the hatchlings are chocolate colored patternless.

I did a similar cross of these years ago. I bred a patternless Southern Pine x's a red Northern Pine and all came out patternless. HDEAN

there is no conflicting story. What you have there is a MUT.
Doug H.

Thank you for the insightful and intelligent response. I posted this information for those people who might have found this informative or useful in some way, not to entertain the ongoing and neverending argument of gene purity. Just for your own edification, however, northern and southern pines naturally intergrade around the area of the Carolinas.

And thats the KEY word naturally, not hey lets get together and mate so we can come up with a new look for ourselves so people can sell us as a new morph,and well keep it a secret and not tell anybody and just say were N.pines or S.pines but not a mut.

just a huge petpeave of mine thats all,and as this is a forum I'm free to express it.

Doug H.

I am not sure why you feel you have to launch this attack, although yes, this is a forum and I agree you should be able to say whatever you want. I was looking to start a thread relevant to the genetic question of the patternless trait, not another argument regarding morphs, locality integrity, etc. but apparently I was mistaken.
I don't see where I mentioned anything about concealing the genetic makeup of these offspring, I thought I was pretty straight-forward. It looks like you have a beef regarding these genetic integrity issues, I would just prefer to stay within the topic I intended.

Thanks

Why is it that whenever someone has a different view or opinion it is automatically dubbed an "attack"? I see no "launch" of an "attack" here. I won't judge yay or nay, but I will say this. If any hatchlings like the one you've illustrated in the pic did naturally occur in the wild, I doubt they would survive. Perhaps that's why they don't look like that where they "naturally" occur. Just my opinion.

CK

Hope you don't breed morphs, because then your logic would seem a little hypocritical.

Van

Actually, I don't breed "morphs". That's not to say that I'm against them. I just "prefer" normal bulls and locality specific bulls over morphs. Perhaps you could humor me and elaborate a little on your post. I re-read my post(several times) in an attempt to find a statement that would lead anyone to think I was being hypocritical. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how many morphs you've collected in the wild as opposed to normal looking animals.

CK

"If any hatchlings like the one you've illustrated in the pic did naturally occur in the wild, I doubt they would survive. Perhaps that's why they don't look like that where they "naturally" occur."

It doesn't matter if they're intergrades (which this is, not a hybrid) or not- any morph generally will not survive in the wild. Therefore, if you yourself did breed morphs, this would be hypocritical. The fact thats an intergradation doesn't matter.

Nope, never collected any morphs. I'm not trying to be an a-hole. I'm just supporting the original poster in that this is a naturally occuring intergradation between two subspecies that are very closely related. I could understand arguments of hybridizing pines and gophers or other snakes (kings, corns, rats, etc.). This seems nitpicky to me, especially if they are accurately represented.

Van

>>It doesn't matter if they're intergrades (which this is, not a hybrid) or not- any morph generally will not survive in the wild. Therefore, if you yourself did breed morphs, this would be hypocritical. The fact thats an intergradation doesn't matter.

If created by man, it is a hybrid. If naturally occuring, it is an intergrade. Man-made subspecific crosses are NOT intergrades. They are, well, not natural.

KJ

Is your logic because it involves a morph or because its a man-made cross?

This intergrade occurs naturally in the wild. You cannot prove to me that the patternless gene will never (or has not previously) cross over to a northern population where it was bred out or just not found yet. If its as detrimental to survival as you say then maybe they all died, just like an albino would (theoretically). So is the issue really "hybridizing" or breeding for a morph?

At least this guy isn't trying to cross an indigo with a leucistic texas rat (lol)

Van

>>Is your logic because it involves a morph or because its a man-made cross?

Because it is a man-made subspecific hybrid. Patternless southern pines aren't ALL THAT rare in the wild.

>>At least this guy isn't trying to cross an indigo with a leucistic texas rat (lol)

Actually, that is probably a less dangerous hybrid than this one. THAT one would much easier to identify as a hybrid and has very little chance of surving in the wild as an escape. Yopu can't say the same thing about the one in question in this thread. I am GLAD that he is representing them homestly, but snakes end up getting misrepresented in the end after the original producer sells them WAY too often. Watch the classifieds for that!

KJ

>>Hope you don't breed morphs, because then your logic would seem a little hypocritical.
>>
>>Van

Van,

I've thought almost exactly that same thing about MY opinions, but here is why I still believe as I do: 1) Every animal out there is the results of billions of natural mutations, so an albino or striped or whatever is just anouther natural mutation that might or might not be beneficial, 2) a pure albino or whatever is just the result of mutations from WITHIN a population and not a result of brionging new genes into a "closed" population like is the case with hybrids, 3) ..... I won't continue to bore you with this because the other parts are, to my mind, minor compared to the first 2.

KJ

This is not a closed population, at least not in the wild. Northern and southern pinesnakes are not a huge geographical separation. They naturally intergrade where their populations meet. You cannot say its impossible this cross would not happen in the wild. If a random pinesnake was patternless, crossed the border in to the "other" pinesnake territory (note that our concept of northern and southern are nothing more than a human construct in the first place) and bred with one of those pinesnakes, this exact same thing would probably happen. And with a morph like this, you can't even make the argument that the offspring (or morph) wouldn't survive. If the hatchlings remain brown or tan colored they still have much more camouflaging ability than an albino or anerythistic. In favorable circumstances one or two offspring could easily survive to adulthood to breed.

Van

If you caught a "northern pine" from the intergrade zone and a "southern pine" from the intergrade zone, then your argument would be valid. However, since your southern pine probably has a lot of southern population ancestry (= pinensakes with a problem speaking the English language) and your northern pine has a lot of nothern population ancestry (= a tendancy to form large central governments and to take away state's and peoples rights), your argument concerning this happening in the wild is invalid and weak. Sorry, but I don't see your conclusion as necessarily following the available information.

KJ

Ii don't see why they wouldn't survive. Granted, they would have less of a survial rate but it's not uncommon to find a patternless pine in florida. (not from experience, just second hand info.)
-----
International Snakes Meetup

Really??? When is the last time you saw a patternless pine ANYWHERE that was dark brown let alone in the wild?

Patternless pines DO occur in the wild; they are even common in somne areas. I don't know of a local with patternless pine intergrades, though.

like someone else pointed out this is not an "attack".In your post you mentioned that you crossed a N.pine with a S.pine.Well I hate to say this but a lot of people that are into Pituophis seem to be concerned with genetic purity.I was just making a simple comment thats all.Dont take it personal.
Doug H.

have used terminolgy they use to describe what you did. They actually use these words to answer and address posts when someone does a man-made integrade. That's one of the ways that they use to clarify bloodlines, lineages, etc. The word "mutt" was used, not to launch an attack, but to identify the lineage of your offspring. No one has said you can't do it or they are ugly. Several think they are nice looking. Of course, the word "mutt" is probably a southern word and they can't ever use words that are already defined. It's one syllable and everything.

>>I am not sure why you feel you have to launch this attack, although yes, this is a forum and I agree you should be able to say whatever you want. I was looking to start a thread relevant to the genetic question of the patternless trait, not another argument regarding morphs, locality integrity, etc. but apparently I was mistaken.
>> I don't see where I mentioned anything about concealing the genetic makeup of these offspring, I thought I was pretty straight-forward. It looks like you have a beef regarding these genetic integrity issues, I would just prefer to stay within the topic I intended.
>>
>>Thanks

"One syllable and everything"...mmmmmuuuuuuuaaaaaaaahahahahahaha. That's hilarious!

Yankboy

You are right, I guess 'attack' is a little strong of a word. I was just trying to offer some data on an issue I believed to have been relevant to the patternless trait, a subject I had seen before on this forum. Everyone is free to have differing views, obviously that is the purpose of any forum. I just wanted to hopefully have a discussion on the patternless gene subject, not enter into another argument regarding genetic/locality purity .

Thanks to all who responded, whether 'for' or 'against' the intergrade issue.

Thanks

Nice job!

By the way, a friend of mine (unfortunately no longer part of the world of the living) bred a patternless southern pine with a Northern Pine(female) and also a beautiful Sonoran Gopher(also obviously female). The southern to northern breeding produced huge patternless babies(light grayish brown). The southern to Sonoran breeding produced striped/patternless babies with gopher snake colors. My older brother now owns that father(southern patternless) and a few of the offspring(now adults). Next time I visit him in New Jersey I'll get pics for you.

CK

That would be great, I would love to see the pictures. As this was my first experience breeding these pines, I had no idea what to expect and was pleasantly suurprised by the patternlessness. They are all relatively dark, 2 of them have pink bellies.

Southerners can't use words that are already defined? Hmmm seems to me that someone is obviously lumping all southerners into a category that is in fact inaccurate. But then again I wouldn't expect a yankee to know any better. In fairness to you the press does tend to find the most back woods inbred people they can when portraying us on TV but rest assured there are plenty of southerners with a grasp of the english language. As a matter of fact there are some of the brightest minds in the country down here in places such as the sports medicine clinic where all the pro athletes go for torn up knees.

On the term mutt however although it may be considered slang it is still an accurate description of the snakes in question. And therefore the attempt to get in the old jab at the south ( as if yankees are any better ) was uncalled for especially since I saw no negative comments about your location to start it.

Phil

Southern man better keep your head, don't forget what the good book said.
-----
International Snakes Meetup

Lighten up bro'. KJ, Terry, and CK(Warden/Chris Kennard)were all kidding with each other as they've done privately. Get a grip!

Uhhhh no one has lost any grip bro. The funny thing is how if someone jabs at the south it's all good yet when they get a jab back then suddenly someone is going off on them. My post was no attack on anyone regardless of how you may have interpeted it. I was merely pointing out that it was an unjustified jab as well as an innacurate lumping together of an entire region of the country. You know kind of like say racism or gay bashing only against a different group is all. Oh yeah I almost forgot it's ok when you do it to the south.

Phil

Need I remind you that this started when someone "jokingly" called someone else here an apathetic yank? I personally thought it was funny even though I'm a...how do you say?...Yank! Stop trying to turn this into something it isn't.

Yes, I started this. California was the "apathetic" Union state during the War of Northern Aggressions. (Hey, don't get me started on the illegality of West Virginia, though! Geez!)

CK was NOT insulting southerners or putting them into one stereotypic group. CK was just accurately insulting me directly....lol. Actually, I really don't know if he is a yankboy or not, to be honest. I can't see him attracting women, so I assume he is, but I NEVER (repeat, NEVER) want to find out for sure.

Besides, I am from south Louisiana. A lot of us still have a problem with the English language. Matter of fact, some of our grandparents STILL barely speak English at all. Heck, I think I have been cussed in Cajun-French more times that I have been cussed in English....and I've been cusseda LOT in English!

KJ

together an entire region of the country. If you want to go to inaccuracies, it is inaccurate to state, lumping a geographical region together is like racism or gay bashing.

I don't need to clarify something I say to a person to another person. Maybe some is needed in this case. The person I was making the one syllable word reference to is way smarter than I am. My mention of the one syllable word "mutt" and southerners to someone smarter than I was just a sarcasm and counterpunch to their "apathetic yankee" jab at me. If someone calls you apathetic, you have to throw a jab back.

>>Uhhhh no one has lost any grip bro. The funny thing is how if someone jabs at the south it's all good yet when they get a jab back then suddenly someone is going off on them. My post was no attack on anyone regardless of how you may have interpeted it. I was merely pointing out that it was an unjustified jab as well as an innacurate lumping together of an entire region of the country. You know kind of like say racism or gay bashing only against a different group is all. Oh yeah I almost forgot it's ok when you do it to the south.
>>
>>Phil

Actually there is a big difference in joking privately and doing so in a public forum. Had you been joking privately no one but yourself and the other party would have seen it. You see that's the definition of private. If you don't want something seen by all then don't put it on a public board. I believe the correct thing to say would not be quit trying to make it something it isn't but to quit trying to deny what you obviosly did. Just because you didn't necessarily mean for your statement to come across like it did does not change the fact that it can be interpeted that way and that it was posted in a public forum.

And no I was not Implying that TV shows are real but more so the way the press whenever interviewing people from down here has a habit of picking the worst nimrod they can find in order to paint the negative stupid southerner picture the country seems so fond to embrace.

And finaly while it certainly is the right of anyone of you to lump people into whatever category you choose it still does not make it accurate. It mearely means that you are entiltled to your ignorance and blind judgement.

Phil

Stop trying to rain on everyone's parade! We're soooo sorry that YOU didn't see the humor Mr. Ifittheprofileofsomeonewholikestokicktheircatfornogoodreason. KJ and Terry are great guys who certainly don't need your approval to kid around. No one here intentionally slandered anyone else. Ya' think I care that my new profile here is "yankboy? It's all in fun. Leave it alone already!

Just as you put it no one needs my approval to joke around I also don't need your approval or the approval of anyone else to express my view on the subject. If you want it left alone then all you have to do is accept that there is another side to the coin and quit trying to make it out as if you are correct here by keeping the debate going. Sorry but you rambling on about how nothing was intentional doesn't hold water as since I pointed out it is a public forum and what you post here is subject to the interpetation of anyone who chooses to come here. If you don't want that potential debate then the solution is simple... don't post controversial topics that can easily be taken the wrong way in public. It's called common sense which seems to be lacking on the forums here at Kingsnake from time to time.

Phil

Actually, it wasn't a "controversial topic" until you made it one. Since it seems you are STARVING to get the last word in, by all means...pardner. Be my guest.

Strange but if I'm the one starving to get the last word in why do you reply? Seems like a bit of the old pot calling the kettle black to me.

Phil

I state my definition of "mutt" (still a one syllable word). You bring up: racism, gay bashing, TV, nimrod southerners. You do a better job putting down people in the southern region of this country then I could ever think and do. I wish you would tear my definition of "mutt" down or not. KJ came right out and said my use of codominant was incorrect and I thanked him for correcting me. You have failed to give me your view of "mutt". You did give me a view that you may have been angry for quite awhile.

>>Just as you put it no one needs my approval to joke around I also don't need your approval or the approval of anyone else to express my view on the subject. If you want it left alone then all you have to do is accept that there is another side to the coin and quit trying to make it out as if you are correct here by keeping the debate going. Sorry but you rambling on about how nothing was intentional doesn't hold water as since I pointed out it is a public forum and what you post here is subject to the interpetation of anyone who chooses to come here. If you don't want that potential debate then the solution is simple... don't post controversial topics that can easily be taken the wrong way in public. It's called common sense which seems to be lacking on the forums here at Kingsnake from time to time.
>>
>>Phil

Your thread must have some posts that my doesn't because I can't find anywhere that I deny or think that my statement came across different than I intended. The statement came in my post explaining the term "mutt" that was used not by me, but by someone else. I was posting my view and definition of "mutt" that was stated on a previous post. A statement I made inline with the subject matter of the thread. The subject of which you have left behind a long time ago. In addition, you're the one in denial in your statement on this post that you weren't implying TV is real. That's exactly what you did. I mention a word as being one syllable and now you say there are some southerners who are nimrods. Not only that, but they have different levels because someone takes the time to pick the worst one. You said the correct thing for me to do is quit denying what I did. I think I did that from the start. You should see some of the jabs when we trade in e-mails. Good luck Phil.

>>Actually there is a big difference in joking privately and doing so in a public forum. Had you been joking privately no one but yourself and the other party would have seen it. You see that's the definition of private. If you don't want something seen by all then don't put it on a public board. I believe the correct thing to say would not be quit trying to make it something it isn't but to quit trying to deny what you obviosly did. Just because you didn't necessarily mean for your statement to come across like it did does not change the fact that it can be interpeted that way and that it was posted in a public forum.
>>
>>And no I was not Implying that TV shows are real but more so the way the press whenever interviewing people from down here has a habit of picking the worst nimrod they can find in order to paint the negative stupid southerner picture the country seems so fond to embrace.
>>
>>And finaly while it certainly is the right of anyone of you to lump people into whatever category you choose it still does not make it accurate. It mearely means that you are entiltled to your ignorance and blind judgement.
>>
>>Phil

No actually what you did was to say that Mutt was one sylable and that southerners couldn't use words beyond that. If you can't see the implications there then you are beyond any help I can give you. And where exactly you see me as implying TV being real also escapes me. You see I pointed out that the picture drawn by the media as well as other ignorant members of society paints an undeserved negative image. The skill is called reading comprehension go back over my posts and try to apply it.

I truly have no wish to continue the debate here as it is far too common amongst forums such as this for people to sit behind the keyboard and fool themselves into thinking they are right or that they actually have a clue what they are talking about.

And for the record I don't recall trying to argue the point about the word mutt merely to point out that the jab was uncalled for. But of course in your mind and the minds of your obvious group here you feel that you have done no wrong so there truly is no point in trying to educate you on the subject.

Enjoy yourself and keep on telling yourself you are right. Eventually you may even start to truly believe it.

Phil

I won't joke around with you on here though, might make people cry. I'll try to shoot you an e-mail or call this week.

Have a good one,
Gregg F.

>>Your thread must have some posts that my doesn't because I can't find anywhere that I deny or think that my statement came across different than I intended. The statement came in my post explaining the term "mutt" that was used not by me, but by someone else. I was posting my view and definition of "mutt" that was stated on a previous post. A statement I made inline with the subject matter of the thread. The subject of which you have left behind a long time ago. In addition, you're the one in denial in your statement on this post that you weren't implying TV is real. That's exactly what you did. I mention a word as being one syllable and now you say there are some southerners who are nimrods. Not only that, but they have different levels because someone takes the time to pick the worst one. You said the correct thing for me to do is quit denying what I did. I think I did that from the start. You should see some of the jabs when we trade in e-mails. Good luck Phil.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Actually there is a big difference in joking privately and doing so in a public forum. Had you been joking privately no one but yourself and the other party would have seen it. You see that's the definition of private. If you don't want something seen by all then don't put it on a public board. I believe the correct thing to say would not be quit trying to make it something it isn't but to quit trying to deny what you obviosly did. Just because you didn't necessarily mean for your statement to come across like it did does not change the fact that it can be interpeted that way and that it was posted in a public forum.
>>>>
>>>>And no I was not Implying that TV shows are real but more so the way the press whenever interviewing people from down here has a habit of picking the worst nimrod they can find in order to paint the negative stupid southerner picture the country seems so fond to embrace.
>>>>
>>>>And finaly while it certainly is the right of anyone of you to lump people into whatever category you choose it still does not make it accurate. It mearely means that you are entiltled to your ignorance and blind judgement.
>>>>
>>>>Phil
>>
>>

although it was the first time celebrating the fourth of July with a yankee/reb discussion on the forum. Someone put "the south will rise again" somewhere. I may be wrong, but surely they've had time (over 100 years now) to build an army again. Phil should lighten up; we're on the same team. I got a really nice everglades ratsnake yesterday. Man, I love the obsoleta complex down there.

>>I won't joke around with you on here though, might make people cry. I'll try to shoot you an e-mail or call this week.
>>
>>Have a good one,
>>Gregg F.
>>
>>>>Your thread must have some posts that my doesn't because I can't find anywhere that I deny or think that my statement came across different than I intended. The statement came in my post explaining the term "mutt" that was used not by me, but by someone else. I was posting my view and definition of "mutt" that was stated on a previous post. A statement I made inline with the subject matter of the thread. The subject of which you have left behind a long time ago. In addition, you're the one in denial in your statement on this post that you weren't implying TV is real. That's exactly what you did. I mention a word as being one syllable and now you say there are some southerners who are nimrods. Not only that, but they have different levels because someone takes the time to pick the worst one. You said the correct thing for me to do is quit denying what I did. I think I did that from the start. You should see some of the jabs when we trade in e-mails. Good luck Phil.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Actually there is a big difference in joking privately and doing so in a public forum. Had you been joking privately no one but yourself and the other party would have seen it. You see that's the definition of private. If you don't want something seen by all then don't put it on a public board. I believe the correct thing to say would not be quit trying to make it something it isn't but to quit trying to deny what you obviosly did. Just because you didn't necessarily mean for your statement to come across like it did does not change the fact that it can be interpeted that way and that it was posted in a public forum.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And no I was not Implying that TV shows are real but more so the way the press whenever interviewing people from down here has a habit of picking the worst nimrod they can find in order to paint the negative stupid southerner picture the country seems so fond to embrace.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And finaly while it certainly is the right of anyone of you to lump people into whatever category you choose it still does not make it accurate. It mearely means that you are entiltled to your ignorance and blind judgement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Phil
>>>>
>>>>

I believe KJ has been secretly forming an army of super-geniuses(we'll call the SGs for short) that will out smart the rest of the country, thus making everyones' brains explode from trying to figure out what the heck they(SGs)are talking about. If anyone should spot one of these SGs, please be advised to pop in some earplugs and walk away slowly.

I thought I actually understood what KJ was saying. Now, that was scary! LOL. I don't know how far KJ's army would make it. Each guy would think he was right and they would all go their own way. LOL.

>>I believe KJ has been secretly forming an army of super-geniuses(we'll call the SGs for short) that will out smart the rest of the country, thus making everyones' brains explode from trying to figure out what the heck they(SGs)are talking about. If anyone should spot one of these SGs, please be advised to pop in some earplugs and walk away slowly.

First, everyone WOULD be right. Second, do you really think one pair of earplugs would stop ME? Heck, Not only do I have a lot to say, but I speak VERY loudly. Think I'm obnoxious here? Meet me in person! I've got a very loud voice that can be heard anywhere. It carries pretty far, too.

My minions will can hear me all the way to the back of the "S.C.A.R.Y." rally!

Never forgive Sherman for his war crimes!
KJ

LMAO! No argument here.

np

You'll have to send me some pics of this new Everglades. Did you get those Gulf Hammocks yet? I'm looking at mine now, growing like crazy. Well, have a good one and i'll talk to you soon.

Gregg F.

>>although it was the first time celebrating the fourth of July with a yankee/reb discussion on the forum. Someone put "the south will rise again" somewhere. I may be wrong, but surely they've had time (over 100 years now) to build an army again. Phil should lighten up; we're on the same team. I got a really nice everglades ratsnake yesterday. Man, I love the obsoleta complex down there.
>>
>>>>I won't joke around with you on here though, might make people cry. I'll try to shoot you an e-mail or call this week.
>>>>
>>>>Have a good one,
>>>>Gregg F.
>>>>
>>>>>>Your thread must have some posts that my doesn't because I can't find anywhere that I deny or think that my statement came across different than I intended. The statement came in my post explaining the term "mutt" that was used not by me, but by someone else. I was posting my view and definition of "mutt" that was stated on a previous post. A statement I made inline with the subject matter of the thread. The subject of which you have left behind a long time ago. In addition, you're the one in denial in your statement on this post that you weren't implying TV is real. That's exactly what you did. I mention a word as being one syllable and now you say there are some southerners who are nimrods. Not only that, but they have different levels because someone takes the time to pick the worst one. You said the correct thing for me to do is quit denying what I did. I think I did that from the start. You should see some of the jabs when we trade in e-mails. Good luck Phil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Actually there is a big difference in joking privately and doing so in a public forum. Had you been joking privately no one but yourself and the other party would have seen it. You see that's the definition of private. If you don't want something seen by all then don't put it on a public board. I believe the correct thing to say would not be quit trying to make it something it isn't but to quit trying to deny what you obviosly did. Just because you didn't necessarily mean for your statement to come across like it did does not change the fact that it can be interpeted that way and that it was posted in a public forum.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>And no I was not Implying that TV shows are real but more so the way the press whenever interviewing people from down here has a habit of picking the worst nimrod they can find in order to paint the negative stupid southerner picture the country seems so fond to embrace.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>And finaly while it certainly is the right of anyone of you to lump people into whatever category you choose it still does not make it accurate. It mearely means that you are entiltled to your ignorance and blind judgement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Phil
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>

southern word is still funny to me. Sorry you can't see the humor. Taking a jab at KJ or CK on this forum does not require them or anyone else to start it. I actually needed to be corrected for using codominant incorrectly. It took one of those bright minds down there (as you said) to correct me. Mutt is a slang word. It is short for muttonhead which is, believe it or not, also a slang word. Muttonhead is derived from the stupidity of sheep and is a slang word defined as a stupid person. I didn't realize TV wasn't real. LOL Do you mean Mayberry RFD was only a portrayal? LOL There are plenty of southerners with a grasp of the enlish language if you say. I really could care less if they do or not or if they speak english or not. There are some cool native snakes in the south and the people down there produce some great snakes that I would like to have, That's what interests me and I care about. Yes, I lump southerners together, but it works for me and it's my perogative. I should reconsider though. I had them lumped recently as being pretty fun to talk to and easier going and personable than northerners. As KJ calls me an apathetic yankee; I could care less about anything else in that region of the country. Good luck Phil and have a great Fourth of July.

>>Southerners can't use words that are already defined? Hmmm seems to me that someone is obviously lumping all southerners into a category that is in fact inaccurate. But then again I wouldn't expect a yankee to know any better. In fairness to you the press does tend to find the most back woods inbred people they can when portraying us on TV but rest assured there are plenty of southerners with a grasp of the english language. As a matter of fact there are some of the brightest minds in the country down here in places such as the sports medicine clinic where all the pro athletes go for torn up knees.
>>
>>On the term mutt however although it may be considered slang it is still an accurate description of the snakes in question. And therefore the attempt to get in the old jab at the south ( as if yankees are any better ) was uncalled for especially since I saw no negative comments about your location to start it.
>>
>>Phil

>>Just for your own edification, however, northern and southern pines naturally intergrade around the area of the Carolinas.

Yeah, they do intergreade in the wild, but this is not the same thing as a man-made intergrade. I wish this was knowledged unknown to us, but since you did make the cross, I'm thankful for you sharing this data with us. I do hope, however, that those babies don't survive long enough to breed. They are real pretty, though. Sorry if I sound callous. I do NOT mean to start an argument, but man-made subspecific hybrids are NOT the same things as natural intergrades.

KJ

Sso are you saying that CB snakes aren't really snakes because they weren't bred in the wild. I don't see aproblem with hybrids other than shady people doing it and then misrepresenting their animals. I don't do it and never will simply because it gives people a bad reputation. I also never buy off of anyone that I have ever heard was producing hybrids.
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International Snakes Meetup

on the patternless trait in So. Pines comes from the fact there are a couple man-made patternless traits and at least one patternless trait coming from wild caught So, Pines from Ocala, FL. The patternless gene from the wild caught and it appears also from the man-made trait in So. Pines are co-dominant. John Cherry could provide more info on this. He has bred the patternless So. Pines from the Ocala bloodline and explains this wild caught gene versus man-made gene in the So. Pines real well when I see him throw it out in a post.

>>As far as I know, there is still debate over the type of gene that causes the patternlessness in Pine snakes. I just had 6 eggs hatch that were the result of breeding a 100% normal female Northern Pine to a patternless Southern Pine. I have read conflicting theories on what to expect out of these. As it turns out, all 6 of the hatchlings are chocolate colored patternless.
>>

I've seen no evidence of a het looking any different from a homozyous animal (whether we assume it is a dominant or recessive trait), so codominace is NOT the answer here.

Sorry, Terry, you apathetic Yankee.

LMAO!!! Lay off the "yanks", Mr. Nobodycouldpossiblyknowhalfasmuchasme.

ck

>>LMAO!!! Lay off the "yanks", Mr. Nobodycouldpossiblyknowhalfasmuchasme.

CK,

That should be "Mr. Noyankeecouldpossiblyknowatenthasmuchasme" to you, Yankboy. I call you that probably correctly, but not because of where you live, either. LOL.

K "The south shall rise again? You mean it fell?" J

LOL, who you callin' boy?
That's no way to speak to your elders! Shame on you. I thought they taught better manners down yonder.

Codominant was used recently in a previous forum discussion regarding So. Pines so i was using it in this one. This state may have been apathetic, but it doesn't mean everyone of us are. Besides, the way you southerners were talking, we thought you had it under control. In fact, it looked like you were going to pull it off. Yeah, we blew that one like I blew this answer. We should have helped fight for state's rights. Oh well, our state doesn't have any guttata, obsoleta, sayi and you don't like our catenifers (or warm up to them at least). I should have been apathetic on this one. Like I told you, I have to write it or say it, that's how I find out if I have it correct or not. I hear Daryl is pretty apathetic when he's driving down the road and you guys are snake hunting. I still see a little dust cloud when I look east towards Texas and the roads you guys were on.

>>I've seen no evidence of a het looking any different from a homozyous animal (whether we assume it is a dominant or recessive trait), so codominace is NOT the answer here.
>>
>>Sorry, Terry, you apathetic Yankee.

OK, before I say this, let me say that I have only a little bit of WEAK evidence to say this theory is possible. It is ONLY an idea I've had for years, but have been unable to test. With all of the unknown hybrids out there, it may be impossible to test, too. Anyway, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say my theory, though.

Assume that the pattern mutation in southern pinesnakes that results in the patternless trait is at the same loci in southern pines as the blotched trait in northern pinesnakes. Now, let's say that the blotched trait allele is dominant to the patternless trait allele in southern pines. HOWEVER, let us say that the patternless gene is dominant to the northern pine allele for the normal blotched pattern. What this means is that a het PURE southern pine would be normally patterned, but a het F1 northern pine hybrid would HAVE to be patternless.

Once the hybrids get all confused following generations of crosses, you could have an animal that is believed to be a pure southern that really has one or more northern pine alleles which means that sometimes iut acts dominant and sometimes it acts recessive depending on if the snake in question has which genes.

Possible, but unlikely. Still, it answers all of the data I've ever heard of, so it can't be disproven. The only stumbling block to me is that I find it hard to believe that the patterns of two closely related subspecies, that intergrade in the wild, would be inherited so separately.

Anyway, I'm out on the limb now.....lol.
KJ

Congrats on the neonates. Will be interesting to see how they look in a couple of years. Patternless pines are interesting. I bred a normal Southern with a patternless Southern a few years back and got 6 patternless and one normal. Go figure.

You took a lot of heat over breeding two subspecies that naturally intergrade in the wild-personally, as long as you represent them as man-made intergrades and don't plan to sell them I don't mind. The problem in the herp trade is there are a lot of folks out there who either out of ignorance or bad faith will sell them as something else to make a buck. Just my $.02