Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Today the greater Delaware Valley was enlightened on the subject of "Dangerous Reptiles" kept by a gentleman in Delaware. An extensive list of wild eyed herps followed, Boa, Blood Python and a Nile Monitor that was actually a tegu. The shock on the news teams faces was making me ill. This story was so blown out of proportion its a wonder there is a snake left alive. I know many in this forum are proactive, here is the question. Which organization bests represents our interests and are there any actively atacking these myths, exagerations and outright sensational BS? Give me some ideas while I get my checkbook.

Thanks
John

Although some of the bad apples of our hobby have really put a black eye in the eyes of lawmakers, it is really the general apathy of the entire herp community that could spell doom if people continue to be naive about our rights. Until people put their talk to action by writing their congressmen, local politicians, and even running for various public offices, i am afraid that things are only going to get worse. We MUST portray ourselves as rationale, educated and professional people who can portray ourselves in a manner in which these people will take us seriously. there are other causes but we need to start with US.

This is very true. Despite my wild -eyed demeanour here(among fellow Drymarchon Keepers) I am actually fairly mundane, but thouroughly knowledgeable. I believe that a LOT of truly bad p.r. comes from people that use these animals as a means to attract attention, which I believe we all may have done at one time or another, but they do it for YEARS.

The other real threat, in my opinion, is folks that take suboptimal care of reptiles and attempt to move them in and out as quickly as possible.

Frankly, the public at large views people that keep Reptiles as "Totally Bizzarre". I myself have ben treated like this, until I explained to them that I had a BUSINESS and was makeing MONEY.
See? Money legitimizes everything(Or so it seems nowadays)
Where people that would have total disdain for this hobby...axctually show an interest, based on of course...profit margin and spread sheets.

Profesionalism is good, PUBLIC education at grade, middle and high school levels is ESSENTIAL.

*cheers*

Fred Albury

Um........I *urped*

Fred

as most of you know NYS just passed a really rigid herp law, in fact it borders on idiotic. Actually, it IS idiotic, since it bans stuff that not only doesnt need banning, but is already restricted by permit systems. I'm going to do everything I can to get a ammendment passed that will exclude reptiles...Ive been really disappointed in the lack of interest other people have been having to actually get off their rear ends and try to inform people. I bring my snakes to every 4-H event I can, and I take my snakes to schools. I am going to get the local news channel in if I dont get some help from the assembly as far as passing an ammendment, because franky I'm tired of people being ignorant jerks, and having an educated, if somehwat eccentric community suffer. Some people might not be, but I'm getting out there and fighting for our hobby. I'll be mailing my first letter suggesting the ammendment to my assemblyman next week. If he isnt co-operative, thats when I call in the news channel. with all the snakebites in the recent news, and everything else thats, we need a little bit of good publicity.
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- Happy herping!

KE

Everything said in this thread so far is true. Especially the part about money legitimizing everything. It's all about money, whether it is or not. When people come to my place and want to see my snakes, MOST of them have the same sort of reaction...they can't understand why I would "keep those things." They also invariably ask how much they're worth. When I give them an idea of what the babies sell for, all of a sudden they think I'm sitting on a goldmine. Now you and I know that is about as far from the truth as it gets, but they immediately start doing the math in their head...and for them 2 plus 2 comes out to about 80 or so. Suddenly I'm a legitimate businessman in their eyes. WTF??? I wasn't legitimate before? What if I'm not in it for money? What if I'm in it just because I love the animals? Well, now...that's just a horse of a different color...that makes me....wierd.

Then try to explain to them why we need to protect these animals. Why they shouldn't kill them with a hoe if they find them in their flower bed at home. You know, the most uneducated contry folk around here have a better grasp of that than the educated people living in $500,000.00 golf community homes. The country folk won't kill a Rat Snake or a Kingsnake, and can actually tell the difference in many cases between a Corn Snake and a Copperhead. The more "sophisticated" ones around here are actually the more ignorant on average. "I don't want a snake around my kids!" is the usual rsponse when I tell them they should just leave it alone. Well, guess what lady...I don't want your brats around my snakes!

I see our hobby being chipped away at little by little, and NOTHING at all being done to prevent it. All because of the fact that the public-at-large has little or no idea of the realities. They are totally ignorant of the facts about snakes and about the people that keep snakes. The ONLY thing that makes news (therefore the only "facts" they get), is escapes and bites.

Fighting this will take (guess what?) MONEY. One person with a collection of snakes going around and trying to educate people will help on a minute scale, but it won't get the job done. It will take thousands of people doing it. It will take getting stories of the good that captive propagation does and stories of contributions to conservation efforts making the news. And the the stories of people providing captive born specimens for medical research regarding venomous species. Stories that shed a positive light on reptiles and keeping reptiles.

It's going to take organization and directed effort. That takes money. At some point, if we are going to save this hobby/profession, we are going to HAVE to band together. The general public cannot be expected to tolerate or support something they don't understand. We can sit back on our butts and whine "But I have a RIGHT to do this if I want to!" Well, guess what? You don't, unless you demand it and protect it BEFORE it gets legislated away.

I've seen hundreds of threads like this. Crying and complaining about new laws that were passed and the fact that people don't understand....but I haven't seen ANYONE actually DO anything about it. As a matter of fact, when I've seen suggestions of forming a powerful national body such as a National Herp Society to try to accomplish some of these things, it was met with almost total indifference. If we are going to survive, we have to band together and we have to form cooperative alliances with the Universities and Government Agencies. If we show that we are interested in the good of the animals as well as the people that keep them, and that we can actually provide some services to the public, we will survive. If we don't, well.....it was a nice occupation while it lasted.

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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I've been an officer in the cinti herp society for many years.
Many people are very willing to help with public education (such as school programs, show at malls and our city museum etc)

BUT...no one wants to step forward when it comes to talking to or writing politicans.

I think the underlining thought is that if and when laws are passed, they don't want to be a known activist against these laws. As long as no one knows, then the law gets passed and they keep their critters anyway.

So, the main people who are associated with herps are those who are forced into the public eye by doing something irresponsible that often results in injury or death.

A lot of herp people disagree with me on this, but Im to the point where I beleive we should consider "giving up" hots.
Every novice can get super hot snakes if they want to.
And because there is a demand, more and more are offered for sale. The number of bites is going to continue to soar. And EVERY one of them hits the news. And there is mass panic, and a scramble for anti-serum...etc.

Irresponsible hot keepers are going to ruin things for all of us.

I absolutely agree that irresponsible hot keepers are doing irreperable damage to us. So are poachers, smugglers and people dealing in illegal wildlife. So are the people that let a 14 foot Burmese or Retic get away from them.

I'm not sure that giving up hots is the answer. I'm positive that shying away from politicians and policymakers is NOT the answer.

The way I see it, if we don't do something to fight the legislation, it WILL be enacted...sooner or later. AT least that way we have a chance of LEGALLY keeping our animals. If we stick our heads in the sand and hide from them, the laws will be passed and we all will lose our animals. Those that keep them anyway will be criminals. Legal keepers today, criminals tomorrow without changing a thing.

Sometimes the best way to fight is to team up with the "enemy".
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I dont understand why people dont talk to their representatives. I am a taxpayer...and I am paying them to represent me, and if they arent doing their jobs, I am pissed! Why isnt everyone? I am more than determined to fix the situation in NY, BY MYSELF if I have to. I have this sense of futility, but you know what, if I dont give it 200% I will ALWAYS regret it! If I have to, I will show up at every office of every assemblyman in New York, and have a polite chat, until SOMEBODY sponsors an ammendment! in case anyone didnt know, this law banned all constrictors, amphibians and lizards when it was introduced. My herp club really went up to bat, and chisled down the bill until it was hots, crocodilians, and huge herps like burms and water monitors. we were able to do that at least.
I disagree that its because of hots that our hobby is being outlawed, its because of DEALERS who want to make MONEY and will actually sell something like a mamba to somebody they havent TRIPLE CHECKED. Ive watched kids walking out of hamburg shows with everything from mambas, eastern diamondbacks, to alligators and rhino vipers. blame the A-HOLE dealers! Who would rather sell their goods and make some cash, throwing aside the risk of that persons LIFE, and the snake's life! sometimes, you cant tell who is a novice and who isnt. but some of the kids, you could tell had no freaking clue what they held in that little deli cup. I feel sorry for the snake mostly, because the snake only does what it was programmed to do by millions of years of evolution, and will probably die from poor husbandry anyway before it can kill the idiot who got it. I agree though, that venomous snake bites, especially the ones in the news recently (the two bushmaster bites, the death from the urutu etc) really hasten the death of our hobby. we need to in turn, do our part to counter it. maybe we will loose, but we need to know that we tried.
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- Happy herping!

KE

1 not so good...Most of you know my Vet is Kevin Fitzgerald from Animal Planet's "ER" show..I him saw a couple of weeks ago with 1 of my indies for a problem.. He told me he's been getting 3-4 calls a week from the Denver PD to come "clean out" crack/meth houses with hots protecting the drugs..Cobras, mambas,gaboons, rattlers, etc...Makes the news, huh?

2 maybe a ray of hope...When he had my Eastern, the Animal Planet was there and one of the "snake men" either Corwin or the "croc " hunter was there!! Went crazy over my Eastern, a big young male..Fitz told them about me(I'm the only Dry keeper in the state) and he told Fitz he wanted to do a story just about these animals!! Dunno if it will happen, but if money doesn't rule the world, TV sure does!!! Can sway lots of opinions..I'll keep you updated if it really happens..

Oh 1 more thing..Ya'll know Dr Sean Bush of "Venom ER" fame?? I was his mentor..He was one of my medical students and I got him into Emergency Medicine in CA and the rest, as they say, is history

Merry Christmas you guys and gals!! I'll be working, but at least my family will be here this year here in the Great Republic of Texas with me!!..
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

Yes, it's a LONG commute!!
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

I am VP of the Sawgrass Herp Society. As some of you know herp societies are the real voice of our hobby. That is because (unlike forums) meetings are where real people can get together and plan strategies for herp preservation etc... It is much easier to get people organized in a face to face club atmosphere.

A prime example was the campaign I helped spearhead last year which stopped the Ban on Boiga species. A lot of face to face campaigning at herp shows Strongly helped the letter writing campaign.

The problem is that (at least in our area) the herp societies are in a decline. Proffessional Herpers generally consider themselves 'above' going to a meeting with "amatuers" or consider the societies as being bad (or competition) for their business. So much of the strength that Societies could have is lost.

Apathy and greed...Especially among our professionals who make profit and take, but are unwilling to give back the effort to keep our hobby (and their business)alive...That is the real problem here.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

All of the above threads are very accurate in many ways as to "why" our hobby is disapearing before our eyes. Many of you have watched our native wildlife go on the list as protected or of special conscern without any large group of herpetologists being asked about them beforehand. Instead, just one or two "experts" are sought out and ,many times , their opinion is without critical evaluation. The states lack the "democratic" way of initializing protected species. It seems to be a fact that they choose to hide the idea from the herpetological communities until after the protection, not legitimizing the effort with the people who truly know about these animals, but rather using animal "experts" who know very little about them. It is only AFTER these animals are protected that the money ( HERE IS THAT WORD AGAIN!) is allocated to research what protection is needed! (If any)!
One must understand that an agency, in order to survive , must legitimize it's existence. It must show a reason to exist than continue to grow in it's efforts or be cut from a highly lobbied budget. By keeping experts who are on their side as qualifiers, they continue to delude the agencies into protecting "endangered" animals before they are even examined!

One of the biggest efforts in our media today is to show the plight of our flora and fauna worldwide. The Croc hunter and others do a good job of educating our world about the animals we know and love. But they also show how rare and endangered and fragile and dangerous, etc. these animals are to a varied humanity. And you and I know that the majority humanity do not like Herps and want to see these animals left in the wild, especially if they could threaten daddy jr. or the like. Now we know one loose mamba isn't going to threaten our nation any more than the billions of already residing venomous snakes do. But THEY don't gather media attention! Every mistake we or our fellows make could be OUR last. We are a very small minority in this country and big brother is watching.
So, what do we do?
Complaining about it on this forum won't help , it may relieve frustration , but the "powers that be" don't come here and read this. Only organized accurate lobbies effect changes or stop changes in the laws of our country or states. Politicians and others respond to these oganizations because they represent voters who could help them retain their office or position and, as representatives of the people, they have a duty to uphold our interests. But we have to be convincing, factual and precise, not angry, threating and unorganized. We must be willing to compromise, it's what makes the world go around. But more accurately, that's how they play ball.
Our biggest problem is knowing what to lobby BEFORE it becomes law. This requires someone on the inside.
Every strong organization has lawers and lobbyists, if they don't, they don't exist. Capish!
We haven't really been noticed so far and this is the only reason we are still alive. But that is changing rapidly and if we don't want to be lawed away, we need to organize and do it quick!

It is quite a feat to petition a species for Federal protection here in the US, and CITES is slightly more difficult. Anyone who would suggest otherwise, obviously has very little experience regarding this area.
The amount of data required to finalize petitions for protective status take years to acquire and publish.
State level protection has proven more beneficial and less time consuming, then Federal protection.
For instance, the protective petition for P. m lodingi and P. ruthveni have been in place for over five years, on the Federal level, though neither has gone through, as of yet, due to insufficient data. Heck, Louisiana has yet to establish protective measures regarding P. ruthveni, while Texas has certainly gotten on the ball with such, and they are considered to be one of the rarest vertebrates in North America.
Also, CITES just recently accepted a petition, which was over six years of age, regarding Carettochelys insculpta, due to the same reasoning.
In short, we cannot blame Government for our own short comings and hind sight, in the way of petitions and positive PR..

Jeff