Reptile & Amphibian Forums

More people are either killed or seriously injured by someone elses dog than they are by someone elses venomous snake or reptile period..... Infact I do not recall ever hearing of someone being bitten by an escaped venomous snake..... So anyone that feels what I said was wrong or irresponsible or out of context, there is a ton of proof behind what I said..... I actually think that more people are injured by dogs than they are by wild or captive snakes put together here in the USA.... If anyone can prove otherwise, feel free to post the info.....

Hi all

Does anyone have any statistics on animal related injuries? Particularly those caused by 'domestic' animals. It would be very good ammunition indeed.

Cheers
B
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
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Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
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Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
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http://www.venomdoc.com

i recently gave a presentation about the supposed coyote problem we have in Illinois (but this info could certainly help the cause of private herp ownership). First, coyotes are NOT the problem people are. Last year alone there were close to ONE MILLION documented dog bites and 12 dog deaths on people....pretty alarming numbers if you ask me; and these are only the documented cases. Numbers were provided by animal control authorities who keep these records. Compared to the few documented idiotic acts of irresponsible herp behavior, this is really pretty insignificant....but anytime you have an individual getting killed by their pet gaboon viper, it will always get far more attention than a pit bull tearing some innocent kid to pieces. But these numbers do help back private herp owners and their rights to keep their animals responsibly.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
City of Lake Forest, IL

i work at a vEt and deal with animal control in 2 diffrent counties and there are more dog injurys by far then herps...but also, ther are more bites by "family" type dogs then pitts, but pitts are the only ones who make the news.
THE KEY IS OWNER RESPONSIBILITY, NO MATTER WHAT THE ANIMAL!!!!!!!

I totally agree with gregg and yourself. I own a pitbull and it is the best dog i ever had. He is great with kids, other dogs, cats, and everything else. He is a true ambassador of what a pitbull's true nature is. It is the owners who teach them to be violent. I am tired of the news glorifying every pitbull attack they get thier hands on. They never show the millions of other attacks by dogs. I also own a good quantity of large constricotrs and some venomous snakes. If a snake ever escapes from its enclosure it is the owners fault for not properly taking the time to secure the enclosure, and snake room. There is no reason any animal should escape from its enclosure. People like this are why the pet trade is under massive attack from the government!!!

is not the bite-every pit I've been around has had a big attraction to dirty diapers. It got to the point with my friend's dogs(he kept them in the house) that he moved the diaper bucket outside. Pretty funny, considering the reputation and the fact that 2 of them were rescued from a fight that got busted. Great dogs, but like venomous snakes in one way-an undeserved reputation.

People keep fighting dogs near children?...LOL...The only breed of dog I'd fully trust near my daughter is a good gamebred Bulldog "Pitbull".

It's great to see this breed of dog getting positive feedback from so many of you guys. All I can say is, "smart bunch of people we got visiting here".....

Take 'er easy,
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Chad Bachman

Pitbulls are as much a family dog as any other (and then some). I've been around plenty of them, and never once been bitten. It's the scumbags who train them to be mean. They are the only breed of dog I fully trust, funny how people will always say a bad thing about an animal they know nothing about.

People suk!
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Chad Bachman

I keep rottweilers at home and believe me, I fully understand where you are coming from. I also understand others' opinions on comparing apples to oranges because they are right. But, it we look at the big picture, and available statistics, there are many other much more dangerous things that the general public should be concerned with. I personally am in full support of a stringent licensing/permitting process but there will be many logistical hurdles and red tape to overcome (not to mention who flips the bill for funding this process). Hopefully, we'll find some answers and solutions to protect our interests.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

She was given a ton of stats thanks to many folks here on KS and I believe she wrote an A paper for Roosevelt University. Anyway, the percentages were amazing. She even got into detail on the captive tiger poulations and private keeping and the percentage of "attacks" compared to the percentage of reported dog attacks were incredibly less. Now I fully believe a tiger is much more likely to cause a problem than a dog but the fact is the number of idiots out there keeping dogs irresonsibly are what makes up for it. When compared to tigers kept...there are less idiots. Now with snakes...we are increasing our population of dangerous animals in the hands of idiots daily. How many anaconda deaths have occured in the US? I believe there are none known. Likely to be because they are kept by less people and the idiot population keeping large anacondas is incredibly small. Now bring in the pet store burmese python...how many living rooms across homes, apartments, and trailors nation wide do we find this critter (possibly free roaming)? And the numbers are rising. I personally liked the story about the burmese in the classroom that bit the little girl...AWESOME.

I'm glad the paper went well for her. Is there any chance you or her could post it or a link to it on kingsnake? I'd love to read it in full. Thanks.
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0.2 chickens
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave)
0.1 Halflinger horse
0.0 reptiles due to living with
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

Its the same thing with Wolf Hybrids all over the place. People have no idea what they're talking about. They're maligned even when, with the right influence, a wold hybrid can be as much a "family dog" as any other breed. I have a half Belgian Malinois half Grey wolf that we got almost 2 years ago now. The big thing with them is making sure they know who is alpha dominant and getting down on their level to make sure it leaves an impression. You have to know their language and be fluent enough to figure out what the animal is doing. A wolf hybrid will see weakness in an injured pack leader and its instinctive to challenge that leader so it can climb up the status ladder. The key is to force the animal into submission though you don't even need to hurt it. You can many times just give it a particular look or force it to the floor by the scruff and make it expose its belly.. but people don't understand this about them because they don't understand the wolf. Most people don't even understand their dogs... And its sad that these animals get a bum rap because of misunderstanding.. but thats how it is with all animals that cause fear in humans. Lack of understanding=Fear=Kill it mentality.
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
3.5.3 Leopard geckos (2.0 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 0.1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short), 1.0 Rainwater Albino (Mycah), 0.4 Poss. Het. Albino (Annika, Lace, Rain and Aris) and 2.1 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice, Malfeas, and Mystic))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
3 cats (Ashe, Sahara and Hercules)
6 Fish (4 Red Danios, 1 Cardinal Fish, and 1 Tiger Barb)
8 Ramshorn snails
"And a Partridge in a Pear Tree!"

I don't have anything on dog or snake bites, but I do have a shark book from the 1970s that lists all recorded shark attacks by species and location up to the time of publication.

If there was the same number of venomous snakes being kept as there are dogs, I would say with confidence that the death number would be much greater than deaths from dogs! In other words the percentage of deaths from a dog is probably much lower than the percentage of deaths from venomous reptiles. No proof here, just logic!

Jason

I guess I shoulda read on down. This was already brought up.

Sorry
Jason

That dogs are a regulated animal. Why are they regulated? Simply because they have caused many injuries and deaths. Why is it Greg, that you use a Pit Bull as your example? Simply because it is a public perception that pit bulls are dangerous. Why? A few (irresponsible) individuals in the past bred and raised them as fighting dogs without taking appropriate safety measures.
I wonder how many responsible Pit Bull owners make the statement (factually) to the 'general public' that one of the most widely accepted public perceptions of a good family dog is a Dalmation. However, they have been responsible for a far greater number of human attacks than Pit Bulls.
Also, I wonder how many Corn, King, Rat, Python and Boa bites go unrecorded? Would I dare say 99% or more?
Now how many dog bites go unrecorded? Dare I say 3% or less?
I know what you are getting at Greg and in truth we all know I feel that venomous reptiles are no more dangerous than a baseball game if in the hands of someone with the knowledge and experience. Unfortunately, if you tried to go to your legislators with the dog defence. You are gonna lose. If the legislators enact laws against venomous snakes, themselves, their families and everyone they know as well as the largest percentage of voters would not be affected and in fact would be relieved.
Now, try and push new regs on dogs, like say... putting a muzzle on every dog over 8 pounds. How many of those legislators, their families and the large percentage of voters would be directly effected?
The only solution for the problem at hand is the self regulated one BEFORE the laws go into place. Who is gonna do that?
Look at the North Dakota thing I posted a few weeks back, strangely enough that was the most widely accepted thread I've ever seen on this forum. It is a sensible regulation, readily enforced and easily abidable.
That came about because of a dumb ass purchaser and dealer and one pissed off Zoo Curator (me)
When defending your hobby irregardless of what it is, you are far better off to not try to distract the issue or the blame from what you as a responsible and able keeper is directly involved in. Doing so, means certain failure.
Look at New York? If the responsible keepers of exotic animals self regulated and Kicked some butt of those who were keeping tigers in an apartment etc... Then the legislators truly would not have bothered with the law they did. Seeing as no one stood up BEFORE it was a "public safety issue" they now have some serious laws there.
Sorry for such a long dose of my meaningless opinion and knowledge, just thought I would share some common sense insight.
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

Your long post was a good post..... No need to be sorry for it.... I just want to clear up a few things.... I said "pitbull" because it was the first breed that popped in my head.... Why??? Because it is my favorite breed..... It will actually be what I buy when I get the family dog next year.... Would it have made a differance if I said German Shepard???? Also, I was talking about serious injury by snakes or other reptiles, not insignificant cornsnake bites..... And how can anyone give a precent of anything if it does not exist???? When I say "does not exist" I mean the unreported bites.... Anyway, atleast this is not a venomoid post and it is something that can be backed by actual fact.....LOL.... Well I am going back to bed for a half hour before I go to work..... Merry X-mass everyone......

bred to fight does not make it a people mean dog, actually they are the friendliest dogs I've ever been around.
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Chad Bachman

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Chad Bachman

NY has had a venomous reptile permit system for 7 YEARS! This legislation was NOT initiated by tigers in apartments either...it was introduced 2 years prior to that incident, and Exotics have been banned in NYC for nearly a decade. Irresponsible keepers are always going to disregard ANY permit system regardless of how restrictive it is.

Our intent(and it had been sent repeatedly in letters to legislators over hte past 4 years) was that, large exotics(Cats, buffalo, bears, etc) DO need to be regulated, but the venomous reptiles are ALREADY regulated by a permit system.

THE POINT OF THIS LEGISLATION WAS NOT LOOSE EXOTICS! IT WAS the ASPCA, HSUS and PETA pushing their agenda to ban ALL exotic animals being held and prevent the captive breeding of them.

NYC is a Zoo of its own, that should be given self governing status like NYC, then most of the its problems wouldn't effect the rest of the state of NY. Hell, outside of the 5 burroughs, Bush would've won NY easily!

.
Brooklyn Man trying to sell Radiated Tortoise.

Gregg,
Not to take away from your post or your point, which has been made here several times over the previous years, but there have been at least two bites reported here in this forum to unsuspecting people by other people's escaped snakes.
The first was a girl (in Maryland, I believe) who was visiting her boyfriend's apartment and got bitten by his cottonmouth when she reached for a magazine on the livingroom coffee table. That was the year before last (or thereabouts).
Lately, a young lady in Florida was bitten while she was in bed by an Aspidelaps that had somehow escaped from her father's cage and snakeroom. She recovered in spite of there being no antivenin available. I haven't received any further information on this particular bite although the guy in Maryland was brought up on charges (probably for not having a permit or something along those lines).
Anyway, my point is that there have been some (although not many) newpaper reported bites to unsuspecting bystanders that are directly attributable to someone who was keeping venomous snakes that got out.
Merry Christmas to all,
Karl H. Betz

You can't compare the two. I venture to guess that if there were as many venomous snakes held as pets as there are dogs, there would be alot more dead or injured snake owners then dog owners.

ALOT MORE!!!
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Chad Bachman

I think this is a good thing to consider. I don't have official numbers on dog ownership, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were an average as high as 1 or 2 dogs per american household. Just imagine if there were an average of 1-2 venomous snakes per home. It's certainly something to think about. (for this and future threads please understand that i'm not against responsible venomous ownership in any way. for the most part i just like to play devils advocate. it's fun to be part of an educated argument now and then.)
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0.0.2 T.c.carolina

Any idiot can buy any dog and keep it happy with a minimum amout of effort. Any idiot can ALSO buy ANY snake, but most need specialized care. The average idiot is incapable of providing the care needed. I would think, that we would run out of snakes, if the average idiot (95% plus of the general population of the world) owned one. Most snakes would die in their care. And hopefully quite a few average idiots would fall victim to snakebite, cleansing our gene-pool in the process. Not quite sure what my point is. I'm bored lol.

... whether venomous reptiles or dogs cause more third-party injury, simply ask your postman.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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WW Home

I recently attended a siminar on reptiles, and the speaker stated that more deaths occur each year from the white-tail deer, than all the snakes put together. The males attack without reason during the mating season, not to mention all the accidents they cause motorists.
Cricket

I'm sure this is probably true. But, with all due respect, it's sort of a pointless fact, unless your intent is to convince people not to keep white tail deer as pets. It doesn't disprove the fact that venomous animals are dangerous to keep.
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0.0.2 T.c.carolina

More people from PETA have injured more people than venomous snakes do.....LOL

People. Against. P.E.T.A. to protect normal people from the PETA psychos.

Injuries to people from captive animals of any kind nearly ALWAYS comes down to the fault of the owner of the animal, almost without fail. Be it a Pit Bulldog, pet alligator, Cobra, Tiger, Sabre-toothed Goldfish, whatever. The owner acted irresponsibly in some way providing an opportunity for an accident to happen. There are, of course, the rare instances when someone goes unauthourized into the domain of the animal and brings it upon themselves...you can't completely idiot-proof.

I agree also that Pit Bulldogs have gotten a bum rap. They are great dogs, just like any other dog can be a great dog in the hands of a responsible owner. By the way, the last time I heard, Cocker Spaniels had bitten more people than Pit Bulldogs. The big difference is that when a Pit Bulldog DOES attack, it is devastating. They are extremely powerful and tenacious animals.

The point is, I don't think the species of captive animal is important. The quality of the keeper is. As long as you are cognizant of the potential for danger that the animal carries, and act accordingly there should be no problems with any of them. Obviously keeping a Tiger in an apartment or keeping ANY large, powerful breed of dog unattended around small children is no smarter than keeping a Mamba in an aquarium in a day-care center. That all goes back to the stupidity issue.

The real problem is that these foolish acts that end tragically result in legislation that is putting a stranglehold on us. And, just as tragically, we are not organized to fight it.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson