Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I don't expect much response due to the holiday but maybe some of you are at your computers (like me - working).

if you have followed Luna's saga she has mild MBD, dehydrated and is gravid. her hydration is MUCH better and she is receiving liq. calcium.

I just now found a fully formed egg in her water catch basin. Only one but it means she is ready and that she dropped it. She has not shown interest in her laying tub (this is the same setup as last two clutches) so I am a bit concerned. I suppose the good news is that it IS fully formed and she was able to expel it OK. these are inferile so I don't care about the eggs.

Any thoughts as to why she is doing this time? Shouel I put her into a larger, separate tub?

thanks
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.5 Mad. Hissers
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
?.? Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula (no name yet)

Lele,
I would put her in a separate egg laying container, something like a tall (3 foot) garbage can with about an 18-24" diameter and 10-12" of soil.... Cover 3/4 of the top with a 40W bulb sticking in the open part with a medium sized branch in there and try not to disturb her. Usually they'll contunie to lay the rest on their own if they feel secure and are physically able to lay them. I have never had alot of luck with egg laying containers being in the cages, and now 100% of the eggs I get are laid in a separate tub, like the one I described. Give it a shot, leave her in there for a good 24 hours at least without disturbing her. Get her a good drink before if possible, and good luck!

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Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

Hi Tyler,

thanks, I am currently "thawing out" the additional sand/coco-fiber mix that I use so I can put it in a big container. It was stored in the barn and was frozen solid. She has always laid in the same in-cage tub, but she has had additional stress due to the mbd, lots of handling to go to the shower, etc. She has been great, though.

She just took a good drink and her dose of calcium and she is hiding int he foliage. I will transport her as soon as I get the mix to a good temp for her. Thanks!

lele
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.5 Mad. Hissers
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
?.? Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula (no name yet)

Lele-

We had a female pardalis do this last Easter, dropping "Easter" eggs all over her cage. We tried it all, only thing that worked was liquid calcium. (We NEVER use oxytocin, and will never start.) If she is dropping eggs and there is an egg bin in the cage (same setup she is use to) I would leave her be. By putting her into a new tub will only stress her out more if she has not even dug around in the bin she has now. I would continue giving 0.2 cc (not 0.02cc) of the NeoCal EVERY day till she drops, and 3 days after. Since Luna is a seasoned mother it should be a walk in the park for her. For this reason I believe its not the setup its more internal and hence why I recommend the calcium treatments! You might find that she shows no interest in digging this time what so ever, yet eggs will be scattered all over the cage. The calcium wont hurt her, at this point I think its your best bet! Hope this helps!

***Merry Christmas***

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John W. Lucas
www.CHAMELEONPARADISE.com
www.CALIFORNIASILKWORMS.com

Chameleons Online E-Zine Author

Hi John,

I compromised. I have a larger plastic bucket filled with the usual (now thawed and warm) mix and I put it in her cage with a light on it and branch. I have been giving her .09ml twice a day, per the vet, since Monday. I think these other problems (the mbd and hydration just has her a bit out of whack (and with Luna that's not far to go! LOL!)

Hopefully she will do it on her own. We have a follow up vet visit on Monday and if she has not laid by then I think an x-ray will br needed. but for now just send good energy to her and I will post "results" later - or whenever.

lele
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.5 Mad. Hissers
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
?.? Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula (no name yet)

Merry Christmas to you, and couldn't resist getting my $.02 in. No sure-fire solutions, as is obvious from other posts, but our extensive experience here at The Chameleon Company has shown that the larger the available area for the chameleon to lay her eggs, the more likely your chameleon will have a prompt excavation and laying of her eggs. No guarantee, just probabilities. You seem to be very much on top of the MBD, doing what you can at this point, and I would stay on your vet's advice. Unfortunately, while she is a "seasoned" female, I am going to assume that she did not develop symptoms of MBD in her prior gestations, and that to your knowledge, all husbandry conditions remained the same for this pregnancy. It is possible that her gestations are starting to catch up with her, and that any future pregnancy could require pre-emptive calcium dosing, and that the likelihood of MBD problems could be more likely still, as female chameleons can be better measured for longevity by number of clutches laid, and not actual age. I think you inferred that the eggs are infertile. Do you know this for certain, or is it an assumption? While their viability is reduced since the female has visible MBD, if her last clutch was fertile, she does not need to breed again, although fertility drops off significantly if her last clutch was more than three months ago .... but the jury is still out as to by how much. Here's a fun test for the future: one of the best ways to detect early MBD is the "bite" test. Before you see visual symptoms of MBD, you can feel it in the strength of the chameleon' bite. Not as radical as it sounds, especially with females, but one of the first easily detectable signs of MBD in any chameleon is a softer bite, and can be felt long before visual symptoms appear. I hope all works out. Jim @ The Chameleon Company

Hi Jim and thanks for your input. These are definitely infertile becasue she has never been bred (pretty much a guarantee, huh? lol!). Not being bred can make it a bit tough to know for sure when to up her calcium but when she goes off food for any length of time, thus not getting needed cal and other nutrients, i begin to give her NCg once a day. This is why the MBD was quite a surprise and I am suspicious about the neo calglucon I got last summer (not from vet; story is here if you want to read: forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=665280,665280.

She did not drop anymore eggs today nor was she interested in the larger tub. She climbed to her sleep spot at lights out (a bit earlier these days so she gets plenty of rest. She has made this change on her own so I am just following her cues and is snoozing. I am hopeful that tomorrow I will find her head down into the bucket!

lele
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.5 Mad. Hissers
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
?.? Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula (no name yet)

Luna's "first" mom and I were discussing the issue about NCg and the "sugar" factor. It tastes sweet and we are wondering if this is NOT a good thing for the chams (my current batch from the vet is flavored with apple and I don't know how they flavor it). Also, would mixing rep-cal into water be a better way to go (this is all provided no other calcium is being given) and if so, how to figure dose/amount. Just curious - any thoughts?

thanks,
lele
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.5 Mad. Hissers
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
?.? Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula (no name yet)

The possible answers here could take up pages, and unfortunately also delve into hard-earned trade secrets. Keeping it brief, I have not seen any problems using sweetened or flavored supplements, where the sweetening was a problem, and we have used quite a few. The major area of concern with a liquid supplement is viscosity, especially if using a fat-soluble vitamin, etc. Any supplement delivered to the animal in a high viscosity solution can have fatal consequences, due primarily to rejection by the animal, and consequent suffocation as the liquid is then inhaled down the trachea. Regurgitation is also common with more viscous solutions. Vitamin A in an oil solution is a prime culprit, and an intermediate bipolar solvent, to allow dilution with water, is needed. As for RepCal and water ..... don't know because I don't use it. The recommended procedure would be to analyze the concentrations of any ingredients that are toxic at higher levels, such as Vitamin A (true A, not beta-carotene), and limit dosage accordingly. Your vet may have some input here. As a business, we are not yet ready to publish how we have solved these problems on a "herd" level, but will some day. Good luck. Jim @ The Chameleon Company

Could you post the url to your website?
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Thanks Dennis
My Ark List (Almost There)
1.1 Ambilobe
1.1 Noseybe (My Wife's)
1.1.15.50 Veiled Blue Phase 0.0.14 Yellow Phase
??1.1?? Mellers
2.2 B.Decaryi
2.2 R.Brevs
1.1 Bearded Dragons (My Wife's)
1.1 Leopard Geckos
1.1.1 D. Azureus (frogs)
0.0.2 D.Auratus (frogs)
1.1 Lionshead Wabbits (My Wife's)
0.1 Cat (Calico)
0.1 Dalmation (Scooter) (My Daughters)
1.1 Tarantula Rose Hair (My Daughters)

Thanks for inquiry. No website now, as we operate primarily as a wholesale breeding facility. We are planning a website later in '05, but primarily as an information source, as our business will continue to be primarily wholesale. Every few months we do offer smaller lots for sale in Kingsnake, etc. A good website is time consuming, but it is on the "things to do list". Thanks. Jim

Hi Jim,

Not quite sure what "trade secrets" you would be referring to regarding my question. :-/

"Herd" level? Do you raise "herds" of chameleons?

lele
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.5 Mad. Hissers
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
?.? Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula (no name yet)

of the setup that worked for me.
Try e-mailing Liddy from Kammerflage. She is always willing to help with whatever information will help you save your animal's life. She does not believe in trade secrets if it means life or death for an animal and she has way more experience with this sort of thing than I do. Her advice on this helped me with my female but she did not have the MBD so maybe she will have info to add in Luna's case.
I would contact her right away.
Sonia

Well, if they are fertile, then the mailman is a chameleon! Hope it works out, and I know that you said that you would post a follow-up. My own experience with veileds with MBD during gestation is not encouraging, but it sounds as if you've been on top of it, so we all hope it goes well. I'm tempted to say that the vet will recommend a longer continuation of the calcium supplement, after egg-laying, than a few days, but would absolutely defer to his/her advice. Our fingers are crossed. Jim

Mine seems to be ok.