Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi there:

Yesterday, I put a freshly deceased (NOT KILLED!!!) brown Anole in with the little guy. He did not even give it a second glance. He just slithered away. I raised the temperature in his tank even higher, and was sure I'd see a feeding response once he got hot (that's what happened with a rosy boa I once had). I checked later, and the Anole was still there. I decided to leave it in with the snake overnight. The next morning it was still there, so I threw it out. I tried another unscented pinky, with still no luck.
I also tried a live pinky, which the snake fled from. Someone at the Cleveland show reccomended I place several different pinkies in different parts of the cage. The snake is drinking great, and had an awesome shed, but now even refuses its main prey item.
Should I get some skinks to scent with? Being wild-caught, do you think it may be going off feed for the winter?
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DAVE

1.0 Western green toad
1.1 green treefrogs
1.0 Florida blue garter snake
0.1 brown Anole
1.0 Mediterranean gecko
1.1 Oriental fire-bellied toads
1.0 American bullfrog
0.1 Spanish ribbed newt
0.0.1 rough-skinned newt
1.1 Eastern ribbon snakes
1.1red-cheeked mud turtles
0.1 Dubia day gecko
1.0 Sonoran gopher snake
1.1 rough green snakes
1.1 giant African black millipedes
0.0.1 White's treefrog
1.0 Okeetee corn snake
0.1 Albino African clawed frog
1.0 Kenyan sand boa
0.0.1 Argentine flame-bellied toadlet
0.0.1 African bullfrog
1.0 yellow * Everglades rat snake intergrade
1.1 Western hognose snakes
0.1 fire salamander
1.0 scarlet kingsnake

I think that you're "bothering" the snake way too much. I know that it's very tempting to check on / interact with your new acquisition. What he really needs is time. When he is acclimated, then you will be more likely to get a feeding response.

I assume that he's appropriately housed and has plenty of hides...

Leave him alone for a week. Don't offer food. Don't lift the hide to check on him. If you want to make sure he's alive, do a sniff test Put the cage in an area where it won't be disturbed.

After a week of ABSOLUTELY NO DISTURBANCE (restrict your activities in the cage to filling the water bowl, preferably while the snake is hiding so he won't notice the intrusion), offer it a pinki. By offering, I mean place the pinki in the cage, without disturbing the snake. Your snake's previous strikes at the pinki were out of fear. If this happens again, you risk the snake associating pinkis with being threatened and he will be unlikely to take them. Leave the pinki in the cage unil it is eaten or expires/dies. If the pinki dies, get another, and freeze it. After a week, thaw and wash the pinki and scent it with something a SK would normally eat. Place it in the cage near where you suspect your snake is hiding, without disturbing the snake. You may need to try this repeatedly / weekly. Don't disturb the snake until it eats.

You could also try and maintain the lizard in the snake's cage. Make sure the snake has both a warm and cool side with a choice of hides on both. Provide the lizard with insects to keep it alive. Even if you decide to do this, offer pinkis weekly in the manner described above, if the lizard hasn't been eaten. If the lizard is eaten, skip that week with the pinkis and resume the following week and try scenting pinkis with the lizard species taken by the snake.

Be prepared to wait several weeks to months before disturbing / picking up / lifting the hide of your snake. If your snake was healthy when acquired, it can easily go a month eating. If you absolutely have to check on him, I'd recommend doing it no more than once every other week and this should just consist of a visual inspection to make sure that the snake is alive and he should not be handled. I'd wait until your snake has taken 3 meals before trying any handling.

All the handling: placing the snake in an alternate feeding container, having the snake strike at the pinki, etc. has set you back quite a bit in terms of establishing this animal. While a cb animal could tolerate this, wc are much more touchy and sensitive to disturbance. Patience is the key! I know that thsi doesn't sound like much fun, but welcome to the world of small terrestrial snakes

Good luck, and I hopes this helps a bit and your snake eats!
Alice

Hi there:

Thank you very much for the advice. I am not disturbing the snake at all, and although the cage is quite warm, the lighting is very subdued. It is a feisty little kingsnake, and I always find that feistiness a very good sign. If I am choosing a difficult snake that I think will do best, I usually choose the first one to open it's mouth at me. That's how I choose rough greens.
Thank you once again. These are beautiful little snakes that are simply amazing to observe. The seller seriously guaranteed me that it had eaten small mice, and I really do believe him. The snake arrived fat, super clean and shiny. I also like how savage it acts when held. This is an acquisition I will never forget.
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DAVE

1.0 Western green toad
1.1 green treefrogs
1.0 Florida blue garter snake
0.1 brown Anole
1.0 Mediterranean gecko
1.1 Oriental fire-bellied toads
1.0 American bullfrog
0.1 Spanish ribbed newt
0.0.1 rough-skinned newt
1.1 Eastern ribbon snakes
1.1red-cheeked mud turtles
0.1 Dubia day gecko
1.0 Sonoran gopher snake
1.1 rough green snakes
1.1 giant African black millipedes
0.0.1 White's treefrog
1.0 Okeetee corn snake
0.1 Albino African clawed frog
1.0 Kenyan sand boa
0.0.1 Argentine flame-bellied toadlet
0.0.1 African bullfrog
1.0 yellow * Everglades rat snake intergrade
1.1 Western hognose snakes
0.1 fire salamander
1.0 scarlet kingsnake

What are the temps? You say that the cage is quite warm, but snakes need a variety of temps. You should restrict the heat to one side and have hides on both sides so that the snake can choose. Although the snake will be active at high temps this also means that his metabolism will be operating on high continually. This can lead to accelerated weight loss. Continuous high temps can also lead to stress. A stressed snake won't eat. What kinds of light are you using? Kingsnakes that I've dealt with are somewhat nocturnal. If you're using lights, make sure that they are the red type or are turned off at night.

You may want to consider a UTH instead, as they don't emit light. Cobra makes very good UTH's which tend to maintain a temp in the upper 90's if you go with Zoomed or one of the other brands, make sure you get a rheostat as they tend to run in excess of 130 F.

You say that the snake is fiesty when being held after you say that you're not disturbing it. I hope this refers to past handling. Although "fiestiness" is a good indicator of vigor it also indicates that the snake finds handling very stressful. Eliminating stress is the first step in getting the snake settled in and eating.

Good luck,
Alice

Hi there:

Yes. I was referring to past handlings. I have not even opened his cage since I recieved your message. The tank has lots of dry substrate with thin flat rocks on the top and subterranean hiding places. The temperature on one side is 87 degrees farenheit, and on the cooler side it is 75 degrees farenheit. There is a shallow water dish with lots of shelters. I am not using a light of any type. I am using undertank heating on one end, as well as a heat-wave pad that heats the back wall on the same side.
Today I am getting a five-lined skink from the pet store or some Anoles to scent the pinkies with. Do you think I should cover the cage with a cloth or something like that?
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DAVE

1.0 Western green toad
1.1 green treefrogs
1.0 Florida blue garter snake
0.1 brown Anole
1.0 Mediterranean gecko
1.1 Oriental fire-bellied toads
1.0 American bullfrog
0.1 Spanish ribbed newt
0.0.1 rough-skinned newt
1.1 Eastern ribbon snakes
1.1red-cheeked mud turtles
0.1 Dubia day gecko
1.0 Sonoran gopher snake
1.1 rough green snakes
1.1 giant African black millipedes
0.0.1 White's treefrog
1.0 Okeetee corn snake
0.1 Albino African clawed frog
1.0 Kenyan sand boa
0.0.1 Argentine flame-bellied toadlet
0.0.1 African bullfrog
1.0 yellow * Everglades rat snake intergrade
1.1 Western hognose snakes
0.1 fire salamander
1.0 scarlet kingsnake

I usually only cover a new snake's cage if it is trying to "crawl through the glass" etc. But, I keep my aimals in rooms that don't get a lot of traffic. If you keep your snake in a location that receives regular traffic, or if you suspect your presence might be disturbing the snake, a cover couldn't hurt. I'd also email Crimsonking in response to his post bellow, and try to get a hold of the care sheet he mentioned. Although I've had a lot of experience acclimating animals, I haven't worked with SK's, and I know from experience that advice from others who have worked with your species can prove invaluable.

Good luck,
Alice

Hi there:

I will try to obtain the caresheet. It is in a room with all of the other herps on my signature, so I think I will use a cover. Last night I entered the room, and the kingsnake was out, crawling between the glass and the top of the cage. Then it fell, and was poking around the rocks. I think that could be a good sign. It seemed to be hunting, unless it was searching for a way out!

Once again, thank you for your help. This is an absolutely fascinating creature.
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DAVE

1.0 Western green toad
1.1 green treefrogs
1.0 Florida blue garter snake
0.1 Asian long-tailed grass lizard
1.0 Mediterranean gecko
1.1 Oriental fire-bellied toads
1.0 American bullfrog
0.1 Spanish ribbed newt
0.0.1 rough-skinned newt
1.1 Eastern ribbon snakes
1.1red-cheeked mud turtles
0.1 Dubia day gecko
1.0 Sonoran gopher snake
1.1 rough green snakes
1.1 giant African black millipedes
0.0.1 White's treefrog
1.0 Okeetee corn snake
0.1 Albino African clawed frog
1.0 Kenyan sand boa
0.0.1 Argentine flame-bellied toadlet
0.0.1 African bullfrog
1.0 yellow * Everglades rat snake intergrade
1.1 Western hognose snakes
0.1 fire salamander
1.0 scarlet kingsnake

The snake was trying to get out!! lol

You absolutely need to get the caresheet from Mark. Read it over many times, and then many times after that. There is also a SK caresheet on Michael's Place, but it will in no way help you(cool pics on there though).
Michael
Michael's Place

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Michael_Fedzen@hotmail.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

Hi there:

Thanks for the advice, HerperHelmz. I did indeed look at the caresheet on Micheal's place, when I first thought about getting one of these guys. I actually found it quite helpful, and the picture of it constricting the ground skink was quite impressive. I will try to get the caresheet from Mark.
I recently bought a new lizard, who is shedding, so I will save the shed skin for when it comes time to feed, and tie it to a pinky. However, as for now, the snake is left undisturbed, and I drapped his heated cage in a large black cloth. I am not getting too excited about anything until I am sure that what I see is a real feeding response.

By the way, Micheal's place is an awesome site! I have been finding many of the caresheets to be very helpful.
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DAVE

1.0 Western green toad
1.1 green treefrogs
1.0 Florida blue garter snake
0.1 Asian long-tailed grass lizard
1.0 Mediterranean gecko
1.1 Oriental fire-bellied toads
1.0 American bullfrog
0.1 Spanish ribbed newt
0.0.1 rough-skinned newt
1.1 Eastern ribbon snakes
1.1red-cheeked mud turtles
0.1 Dubia day gecko
1.0 Sonoran gopher snake
1.1 rough green snakes
1.1 giant African black millipedes
0.0.1 White's treefrog
1.0 Okeetee corn snake
0.1 Albino African clawed frog
1.0 Kenyan sand boa
0.0.1 Argentine flame-bellied toadlet
0.0.1 African bullfrog
1.0 yellow * Everglades rat snake intergrade
1.1 Western hognose snakes
0.1 fire salamander
1.0 scarlet kingsnake

Good advice from Alice.
I still think you are confusing a "feisty" attitude with stress and defensive behavior.
WC scarlet kings I have dealt with are crepuscular for the most part and need little light. It only makes them more nervous. (if they can be seen, they can be eaten)
Being wc, it could very well be trying to winterize, so I'd give it a cool spot as well. If you find it stays there and never comes out, then I'd brumate the snake for 8 weeks or so in the 50's F. After that, he may be warmed up and also be very likely to accept prey items that are not scaring him.
If you plan to put him on your schedule and keep him warm throughout the winter he'll need to be fed, but he'll need to feel comfortable first! i.e. NO HANDLING
Even though yours seems "healthy", SK's can go down hill quickly if stressed.
As stated before, a skink will do wonders no matter what you decide. I had written a brief care sheet for SK's a few years back, but it was more for neonates/young ones. You might find some help in it though.
By the way, have you been successful in keeping rough green snakes for any length of time? Say a few years?
:Mark

Hi there:

The scarlet kingsnake in that picture is one of the nicest ones I have ever seen! It also looks very large for a SK. About the rough green snakes, I have had pretty good luck keeping them. At first, my local exotics store sold really, really old ones, about a yard long, that wouldn't live too long anyway.
I bought one, and kept it alive in a 40-breeder, for a year and three months. My second was absolutely enormous, and was by no doubt the longest rough green I have ever seen. It lived about 6 months. Then, one of the big wild-caught females at the pet store gave birth to about 10 young. I bought one, and the minute I placed it in the cage it snapped the crickets right up. I still have him today, and he has grown considerably.
Then, at another pet store, a wild-caught female gave birth to 24 young. I have a female, so I got a male, who also snapped the crickets right up and has grown considerably. I have had the first one for 2 years now, and the second one for about 7 months. I keep them in one of those mesh cages for chameleons, with live plants, climbing branches, a rock water basin, moss and logs with live and fake ivy. They have a daylight blue bulb, and in addition, are below a window. I mist spray them daily, and the tank also has drainage.
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DAVE

1.0 Western green toad
1.1 green treefrogs
1.0 Florida blue garter snake
0.1 Asian long-tailed grass lizard
1.0 Mediterranean gecko
1.1 Oriental fire-bellied toads
1.0 American bullfrog
0.1 Spanish ribbed newt
0.0.1 rough-skinned newt
1.1 Eastern ribbon snakes
1.1red-cheeked mud turtles
0.1 Dubia day gecko
1.0 Sonoran gopher snake
1.1 rough green snakes
1.1 giant African black millipedes
0.0.1 White's treefrog
1.0 Okeetee corn snake
0.1 Albino African clawed frog
1.0 Kenyan sand boa
0.0.1 Argentine flame-bellied toadlet
0.0.1 African bullfrog
1.0 yellow * Everglades rat snake intergrade
1.1 Western hognose snakes
0.1 fire salamander
1.0 scarlet kingsnake

Sounds like you have them in a near perfect set up. I'm glad to hear someone have success with them. You hear of so many that do not do well. I hope you eventually get them to breed for you. I had only a few clutches, but then again I never tried hard.
That SK in the pic is over 24".
:Mark

Hi there:

Yes, they are really neat little snakes. They seem to be the only small terrestrial snake that has gained any popularity. Wow! 24 inches? That's almost the record length! I could tell from the picture that it was of uncommon size. Does it belong to you? Stunning coloration as well.
I hear that the green snakes are close racer relatives, and I can see a resemblance just by looking at them. My larger one gapes in a threatening display, but I have never once been bitten by one. However, I almost never hear of people keeping the smooth green snake. I sent you an e-mail today for the caresheet. Thanks.
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DAVE

1.0 Western green toad
1.1 green treefrogs
1.0 Florida blue garter snake
0.1 Asian long-tailed grass lizard
1.0 Mediterranean gecko
1.1 Oriental fire-bellied toads
1.0 American bullfrog
0.1 Spanish ribbed newt
0.0.1 rough-skinned newt
1.1 Eastern ribbon snakes
1.1red-cheeked mud turtles
0.1 Dubia day gecko
1.0 Sonoran gopher snake
1.1 rough green snakes
1.1 giant African black millipedes
0.0.1 White's treefrog
1.0 Okeetee corn snake
0.1 Albino African clawed frog
1.0 Kenyan sand boa
0.0.1 Argentine flame-bellied toadlet
0.0.1 African bullfrog
1.0 yellow * Everglades rat snake intergrade
1.1 Western hognose snakes
0.1 fire salamander
1.0 scarlet kingsnake