Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am curious what the consensus is on breeding size for kingsnakes.

What size should a female California king be before considering breeding? length and weight?
What size should a male California king be before breeding? Could it be smaller than the female? How much?

And for Mexicana complex kingsnakes what are the sizes and weights for each gender?

I usually wait until the third year for all my breeders and they are definitely never too small. I just would like to know what everyone is using for a "minimum size" on each species and each gender.
Thank you in advance,
-John Lassiter-

Sometimes I breed my female cal kings at 18 months (with a brumation) and sometimes I do not because of the size issue. I don't actually weigh or measure them. I ALWAYS breed 18 month old males (they do have viable sperm) but only with similar sized females. I did one time breed an 18 month old male to a much larger female with complete success. But as with all my cal kings I observe their breeding ON ALL CASES. The males will want to breed, especially if they smell the fresh shed skin of the female once he enters the female's cage. The female may not always be ready. I have seen the female grab and wrap numerous coils on the male on their first introduction, then a week later when introduced again, they breed. Just like in humans, it won't happen unless the female let's it happen LOL

With cal kings:

I observe all breeding introductions until they hook up.
I NEVER leave them alone over night.
I remove the male once they are un-hooked.
And I try to get a few copulations (2-4) with the same pair.

It is better to wait for them to be 2 1/2 years old with a brumation, but not all cal kings grow at the same rate.

Kerby...

Thank you Kerby,
I actually pretty much do the same as you, but I was just wondering what the size limitations were not the ages. I have bred at 18 months of age too with my males, but have never had a female large enough at 18 months of age (IMHO). I always wait until the third year (2 1/2 years of age) on my females. I have chosen 36 inches for my female common kings and 30 inches for my female Mexicana. As for the males I too think that 18 months of age is sufficient.
What is everyone else using as a guideline besides their gut instinct?

Thanks,
-John Lassiter-

>>I observe all breeding introductions until they hook up.
>>I NEVER leave them alone over night.
>>I remove the male once they are un-hooked.

A couple of times I've ended up leaving mine overnight. After waiting eight hours sometimes I just say "I gotta sleep"... occasionally I've found them STILL hooked when I woke up in the morning!

I bred my newport phase cal king at 18 months, but she was actually quite huge. The male was also 18 months and had no problem (15 hours hooked up?!). This year I'll know to start in the MORNING. So far I've never had one cal try to eat another, but I've only done this two years, and both years with the same male and two females.
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~Sasheena

I wont breed females usually unless they are 38-40" long. I dont use weight as a factor because you can have a longer older snake weigh less than a fat shorter snake etc...Males can usually go at 18 months like Terry said but its the females that are usually at issue. I do know of people getting 3' females to push out clutches but they are usually very small clutches and sometimes they can have binding problems due to infertile eggs. Its just not worth the rush to breed them under 3' IMHO.

Keith
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Keith,
I take it, that the 38 to 40 inches you breed at is referring to your Getula and Brooksi? What about Californiae or Splendida? The same? I believe them to be smaller snakes in general. I know there are large and small individuals in all species.

Also does anyone have a minimum size for a female Mexicana? (Greeri, Ruthveni, Alterna or Thayeri) Is 24 inches too small?

Thanks,
-John Lassiter-

Yeah sorry I was in that mindset. I would think for the other sub species of smaller getula nothing smaller than 36" but Im sure someone will have anecdotal evidence of 24" Kings breeding. Like I said Im never in a big hurry so I like to let them season a bit. I used to breed Baja Mt. Kings and they were about 27" or so long and breed just so my 40" rule is not for all just the snakes that commonly reach 4-6'

Keith
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Keith, the only egg-binding that I have experienced (2x) have been on an older mex-mex and an older cal king. Both were huge females in length and had large clutch sizes with the last egg being stuck. I did nothing and they both eventually passed the egg a few weeks later. Both ended up breeding the next year with no problems.

I never had a young female (18 months) have any problems with egg-binding. I've had young females refuse to breed though.

Kerby...

Ive seen it across the board in all females. Ive seen it a bit more in too small of females used though. Binding also seems to go hand in hand with slugs. Another thing Ive seen is obese females seem to get bound more than normal weighted animals.

Keith
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for fla's and cal's and eastern's i usually preach the 40"/ 400 gram combo rule.sometimes i can get a female this size in 18 months, sometimes it takes 3 1/2 years. at 40" there is much less chance of the egg binding problem or other consequences ( female being consumed by larger male???- almost had it happen).
not everyone considers weight but i do. i do not have precise cutoff data but chose what i felt to be a reasonable safe range. the females need to be at a certain weight and a certain proportion of it to be lipid in order to produce the hormones necessary for ovulation and formation of the yolk. maybe at some point during egg development the female may stop eating because eggs take up too much volume, so she needs some reserves for that. she will need a lot of energy to lay those eggs. then after she lays eggs, i still want to have a healthy female not a strung out intensive care patient.
just some thoughts,
daveb