Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, so I've been all geared up to purchase a mali and then I come to find out that taking them out of their hot enclosure and exposing them to avg. 75 degree temps when handling them is stressful on the animal. I like the idea of having a reptile that I can handle on an almost regular basis it's one of the things that has enticed me to take up keeping reptiles. I dont mean I will be pulling him out every 15mins or even every day, probably every other day if that even.

Any suggestions on an animal that doesnt require the large insect diet like beardeds but isnt suceptable to stress/illness from being brought out of their enclosures? Any options are greatly appreciated as Im about to build a very permanent enclosure for whatever I end up getting.

>>Ok, so I've been all geared up to purchase a mali and then I come to find out that taking them out of their hot enclosure and exposing them to avg. 75 degree temps when handling them is stressful on the animal. I like the idea of having a reptile that I can handle on an almost regular basis it's one of the things that has enticed me to take up keeping reptiles. I dont mean I will be pulling him out every 15mins or even every day, probably every other day if that even.
>>
>>Any suggestions on an animal that doesnt require the large insect diet like beardeds but isnt suceptable to stress/illness from being brought out of their enclosures? Any options are greatly appreciated as Im about to build a very permanent enclosure for whatever I end up getting.

First of all good for you for thinking this through before purchasing.

I do think regular handling adds to the stress load of these guys. Don't forget they are permanently stressed to a small degree from being in captivity no matter how good your husbandry is. Some uro species seem to handle it better than others, but I don't think uros are for someone who wants an interactive pet.

As for other herbivorous lizards there are a couple. Disclaimer: I have no experience with these species and don't know if they will tolerate handling or not. You can check out Chuckwallas and Desert Iguanas. Don't let the iguana fool you... it only get 16-18 inches long or so.

Also don't give up on the beardies quite yet. Pop over to the beardie forum and check out the discussions on pellet feeding them. I know some people have moved adults over to an almost all pellet diet. I don't know how good of a husbandry practice this is but I know it is being done. That way you might only have to mess with crickets for the young ones then move them over to pellets and supplement with insects every once in a while.

-----
Mike Wilson
mwilson@fuu.net

I was going to suggest the same as Mike. I rarely ever handle my uro's. The funniest part is if I do take them out they are the sweetest little things and they only get touched by me maybe once a month. I don't even worry when I don't see them out for a few days. From my experience with Beardies, I could not get them on pellets. Maybe they make them better now but I got rid of all of mine due to having crickets delivered weekly directly from flukers, they just wouldn't eat anything I tried.
-----
1.1 Ornates (Lindsay Pike)
0.0.1 Mali
0.1 Weimaraner

So on avg. if I went with a bearded how many crickets am I looking at feeding them daily?

And you said you were getting theem weekly from someone. Were they shipping them to you weekly? ANd how was your success in keeping these things alive over long periods? Thanks for the information so far Im leaning towards beardeds.

My beardie was only insects when I recieve him, I took and did maybe 10 crickets a day for a week, and then 6 crickets the next week, and then 4 and then 2 and then I had greens in their the whole time, he now enjoys greens more then insects.

-----
1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Pyro/Sandfire/Orange Cross)
1.1.0 Nigerian Fire Red Uromastyx
1.0.0 Choclate/Tan Dapple Miniature Dachshund
1.0.0 Isabella Miniature Dachshund
0.1.0 Red/White Piebald Miniature Dachshund

Aol Instant Messanger - Bdubedub

Yeah, for adult beardies it's very important to have their diet be about 80% veggies and 20% insects. For young beardies it's just about the opposite. I'm trying to work mine out of his stubborn eating habits. He only likes crickets and those red repcal pellets. The pellets are good for him, but too many crickets has already caused problems with his uric acid levels and whatnot, so once he's out of brumation and eating normal again I'm going to try only offering crix and pellets about once a week and offering greens everyday. That would be pretty much ideal. Just do like crix on monday and pellets on friday, and have greens everyday. that would probably even out his diet pretty well.

>>I do think regular handling adds to the stress load of these guys.

My mali has never ever stressed out since I've had him. He eats like a pig, goes to the bathroom on a regular basis, gets out and basks as soon as "DAY LIGHT" gets turned on.

I find him at the corner of his enclosure once a day to see if I'm coming down to play with him.

He enjoys being held. I put him under a nice warmed towel and let him sit on my stomach, he goes to sleep and then when it's time to go back in he gives me a look that says " why did you move me? I was sleeping oh so peacefully and was having a great time!"

That could just be my Mali though. Ares is the most laid back reptile I own.

Also: you can teach them tricks, when I say kiss, he licks me. ( i even taught that to the family dog).
-----
2 Mali Uromastyx-Ares & Apollo
2 Bearded Dragons- Draco & Hades
1 Saharan Uromastyx-Iris
1 Leopard Gecko-Kalypso
1 Tokay Gecko-Sid Vicious
1 Tarantula-Peter Parker
1 Amazon Red Head Parrot-Pancho
1 African Gray Parrot-Keya
1 Dog-Cheeka
3 Fish-no names
1 Beta Fish-also no name
1 Zebra Finch-Beeps (we used to have 5, but some went on a killing spree).

>>>>I do think regular handling adds to the stress load of these guys.
>>
>>My mali has never ever stressed out since I've had him. He eats like a pig, goes to the bathroom on a regular basis, gets out and basks as soon as "DAY LIGHT" gets turned on.
>>
>>I find him at the corner of his enclosure once a day to see if I'm coming down to play with him.
>>
>>He enjoys being held. I put him under a nice warmed towel and let him sit on my stomach, he goes to sleep and then when it's time to go back in he gives me a look that says " why did you move me? I was sleeping oh so peacefully and was having a great time!"
>>
>>That could just be my Mali though. Ares is the most laid back reptile I own.
>>
>>Also: you can teach them tricks, when I say kiss, he licks me. ( i even taught that to the family dog).

Well there always exceptions to the rule, but these are not domesticated animals like cats and dogs. They have not been kept and bred in captivity long enough for that. They are still wild animals that we are keeping in captivity.

They are also, not very smart at all. That goes for most reptiles, reptile brains just aren't as developed as mammal brains. I am sure they can make limtied associations about food and heat but I think a lot of people are anthropomorphizing the behaviour they see.

Just my personal opinions as usual.
-----
Mike Wilson
mwilson@fuu.net

I know they aren't as smart as mammals.

But if my mali can recognize his name, his cage mates name and to kiss when he hears that word, I consider him smart.

Our mali's came from Petsmart(my brother used to work there). They get their mali's in from a breeder. This breeder bred his wc mali's and those hatchlings he got, he bred with his friends hatchling mali's. So our mali's are like 4th generation captive bred.

I agree that some reptiles don't know what's what and can't recognize their own names.

But all of our reptiles, Draco, Ares, Apollo, Hades, Kalypso, Iris and Sid Vicious, all look at whoever is saying their name.

I can be sitting down stairs in my brothers room, near his bed (which is about 12 feet from the enclosures) yell out ARES and he'll run to the end of the tank, and look at me.

Not over exaggerating at all, it's the truth. If I say Draco, Draco looks over at me.

It's just my experience with these animals, but I have a close connection with animals becuase I'm NA and it's in my blood to be close with every little animal creature put on this earth.

Also, to note an animals intelligence: Hades, my bearded, is smart IMO. Every time he goes to the bathroom, he covers it up with his coconut hide (too small for him to fit into so he uses it like we would a toilet).
-----
2 Mali Uromastyx-Ares & Apollo
2 Bearded Dragons- Draco & Hades
1 Saharan Uromastyx-Iris
1 Leopard Gecko-Kalypso
1 Tokay Gecko-Sid Vicious
1 Tarantula-Peter Parker
1 Amazon Red Head Parrot-Pancho
1 African Gray Parrot-Keya
1 Dog-Cheeka
3 Fish-no names
1 Beta Fish-also no name
1 Zebra Finch-Beeps (we used to have 5, but some went on a killing spree).

My mali doesn't recognize me as a threat unless I sneak up on her or something. Usually when she sees someone coming towards the tank in the morning she automatically thinks that she is getting food and runs over to where her bowl goes. Right now she's not doing that though because she is under the weather (I'm assuming parasites, but I'll let the vet decided...I haven't been able to get her to poop at a convenient time so I think I'll just bring her in and let the vet assess her). It's really getting to me I have faith she will come around though.

She also won't poop in her cage. She waits until I take her out to run around my room every other day (sometimes everyday), and then she goes on newspaper/towels that I have covering the floor.

Sometimes I wish she was just a normal uro that didn't have these strange tendancies. It would definately be easier, but she's a cool lizard to have around.

My beardie on the other hand isn't too bright, but he's a great lizard anyways. Often he'll take a poop in his tank, then decide it's time to fight with his reflection in the glass, and after a minute or so of that he's got crap all over him. No wonder it was so hard to get rid of his parasites.

I haven't had my leo long enough to be able to tell his level of intelligence, but he's still a really interesting lizard to watch, especially when he hunts crix. I'm going the more traditional route with him of seldom handling...only enough so that he's not terrified of me when I do need to handle him for one reason another. I feel it's the best bet for smaller lizards and probably most uros as well.

I do think that a lizards 'intelligence' as we see it stems from their basic instincts. Food, shelter, heat, etc. They can learn their names, but that's usually from saying their names when you feed them. They learn to associate it with the coming of the food bringer. That's just my take on it though.

I hardly ever say their names when I feed them. Sometimes I say Ares, let Apollo get some food before you hog all the good stuff (both love peas but ares gets to them first most of the time *only becuase apollos usually at the other end of the tank running around*).

Kalypso, my leo, loves being held and walking around my room. Most people tend to think it's because she likes the warmth on her stomach that my hand and body generate, but it's because she's a people reptiles. She loves being held now that she's with me, when she was at Petco so was mistreated, now she loves being out.
-----
2 Mali Uromastyx-Ares & Apollo
2 Bearded Dragons- Draco & Hades
1 Saharan Uromastyx-Iris
1 Leopard Gecko-Kalypso
1 Tokay Gecko-Sid Vicious
1 Tarantula-Peter Parker
1 Amazon Red Head Parrot-Pancho
1 African Gray Parrot-Keya
1 Dog-Cheeka
3 Fish-no names
1 Beta Fish-also no name
1 Zebra Finch-Beeps (we used to have 5, but some went on a killing spree).

I also agree that they are not as smart as mammals, but they all have very distinctive personalities, likes and dislikes and most recognize their names. I believe it is sometimes the amount of time spent interacting with them that makes them more friendly (again, on their own terms, not ours). I have four different species and by species alone, all are quite different. I also have my monitors and frogs and even my white's tree frogs will jump on my hand if I put it in their cage. I am a crazy lady who talks to my pets all the time, so they are quite used to me and my foolishness. I would never force an animal to interact with me if it was uncomfortable. My black headed monitor does not like to be touched at all, but will sit quietly when you talk to him and look directly at you. I will continue to allow him to decide if he wants to approach me. Consider all of your options, read a lot of books and talk to owners of some of the species you are looking at. You want your purchase to be rewarding for both the animal and yourself. Good luck with your choice.

Pam