Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, I'm spending today sitting infront of my spreedsheets and trying to figure out what direction I want to go and would love some feedback from others planning for the next few years ahead....

I'm currently debating the purchase of a male pied and 5 pos het females ($10,000)or a male spider ($7K purchased now for an 05 breeder or more than likely with price drop $5K for an 06 breeder). I know I'm going to hear buy what you like most, however this does not apply as I could produce bumbles next year with the spider (complete toss up for me regarding favorites between pied and bumblee).

So I need to look at the business end of things as I've got $21K this year alone invested in new balls and enclosures already, we all have to pay the bills.

With the spider I could produce bumblees, but would have to give up producing a super pastel. I'm also leary on the price of spiders falling quickly to the $2k level by the time 2006 eggs hatch...

I'd love to here what others are estimating offspring values at for the coming years for small breeders.

Pastels 05 offspring 06 offspring
males $800 $500
femals $1500 $1K
Super $8K $5K

Spiders 05 offspring 06 offspring
Males $5K $3K
Femals $3K $2K
Bumblees $12K $8K

I know NERD has bumblees listed at $38K and another breeder has them listed at $25K but the real cash value of these I only see around $15K right now at best.

I know some people look down at the money side of things however I'm taking advice from eugene bassett who told me awhile back that you have to look at this as a business and not a hobby if want to ever go full time with it. Look at it as a business that is your hobby and job that you love. 2 years out is my full time goal.....

Thanks for the feedback all, share your thoughts here or email me if'd you'd prefer.

Running out of room, so this weeks project, get the cars our of the garage and add an addition room. In the middle of this project, cut the garage in half adding an a room 20ft x 13ft....

Here is what I would look into getting. A cinny pastel,yellowbelly or some clowns and caramel albinos. You do do see a lot of these being offered for sale. The yellow belly is great for producing some great combos.Let us know what you decide.

>>Well, I'm spending today sitting infront of my spreedsheets and trying to figure out what direction I want to go and would love some feedback from others planning for the next few years ahead....
>>
>>I'm currently debating the purchase of a male pied and 5 pos het females ($10,000)or a male spider ($7K purchased now for an 05 breeder or more than likely with price drop $5K for an 06 breeder). I know I'm going to hear buy what you like most, however this does not apply as I could produce bumbles next year with the spider (complete toss up for me regarding favorites between pied and bumblee).
>>
>>So I need to look at the business end of things as I've got $21K this year alone invested in new balls and enclosures already, we all have to pay the bills.
>>
>>With the spider I could produce bumblees, but would have to give up producing a super pastel. I'm also leary on the price of spiders falling quickly to the $2k level by the time 2006 eggs hatch...
>>
>>I'd love to here what others are estimating offspring values at for the coming years for small breeders.
>>
>>Pastels 05 offspring 06 offspring
>>males $800 $500
>>femals $1500 $1K
>>Super $8K $5K
>>
>>Spiders 05 offspring 06 offspring
>>Males $5K $3K
>>Femals $3K $2K
>>Bumblees $12K $8K
>>
>>I know NERD has bumblees listed at $38K and another breeder has them listed at $25K but the real cash value of these I only see around $15K right now at best.
>>
>>I know some people look down at the money side of things however I'm taking advice from eugene bassett who told me awhile back that you have to look at this as a business and not a hobby if want to ever go full time with it. Look at it as a business that is your hobby and job that you love. 2 years out is my full time goal.....
>>
>>Thanks for the feedback all, share your thoughts here or email me if'd you'd prefer.
>>
>>
>>Running out of room, so this weeks project, get the cars our of the garage and add an addition room. In the middle of this project, cut the garage in half adding an a room 20ft x 13ft....
>>
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Thomas Jones
aligatorhunter@cox.net

yellowbellys have no visual characteristics which make them apealing....people want them because some "yellowbellies" produce Ivories (those "yellowbellies" are now titled het ivory's).

what combos look nice with a yellowbelly? ivory...and from waht i've heard "ebonies" (never seen one though)
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December 9, 2004
Always Remembered
WE REMEMBER YOU GARY!

Jared H. has a nice striped yellowbelly.I do not believe the striped female he used was genetic but he can answer that better than I can.It is hands down one of the best looking Bp's I have seen.

>>yellowbellys have no visual characteristics which make them apealing....people want them because some "yellowbellies" produce Ivories (those "yellowbellies" are now titled het ivory's).
>>
>>what combos look nice with a yellowbelly? ivory...and from waht i've heard "ebonies" (never seen one though)
>>-----
>>December 9, 2004
>>Always Remembered
>>WE REMEMBER YOU GARY!
-----
Thomas Jones
aligatorhunter@cox.net

As someone who's looking to purchase a spider next season - I would recommend I'm kinda bias. But I would go with the spider.
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Tosha

1.1.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy)
0.1.0 Siberian Husky (Kita)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
5.4.2 Fish (1,2,3,4...)
0.0.1 Frog rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.2 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

I meant to say : I would recommend the spider but I'm kinda bias.
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Tosha

1.1.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy)
0.1.0 Siberian Husky (Kita)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
5.4.2 Fish (1,2,3,4...)
0.0.1 Frog rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.2 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

I'd also tend to lean toward the spider. Especially if you have some extra big normal females to breed it to in addition to the pastel female. Even if they are "only" $2,000 each you could still easily make your investment back the first year just off the normal breedings and the shot at a bumblebee would be just gravy.

On the other hand, are the possible het females with the pied near breeding size? If not, it will take a long time to grow them up. The pied price might be higher than spider from now on (not guaranteed though) but they will probably be much harder to produce, especially in quantity.

the pied and het females would all be 04's so atleast 2 years before I'd see a cluch. I'am also leaning twards the spider, I'd only have 4 possible 5 females to give him next year as the rest are already tide up for my albino project (they are het's).

I'm also at a toss up if I should even give my female pastle to the spider or go for the super pastel.... It would then free up several females for other projects the following years while still alowing me to produce the same number of pastels if I'm able to get a male super....

I guess this is the fun part of the hobby... If I had more cash, time and females....LOL

IN MY OPINION.....Depends on what and how much you have at the time you want a new purchase...I would go with something along the Co-dom morphs. Yes, They will drop faster but you will also get a faster return on your investment. I started with Normal females with pastel males, I am raising pastel, spider, Yellow belly(imported unproven), females for next year. I am also looking at getting a mojave, male spider, clown, and a few others. Almost all of the morphs are kool so it would be hard to just choose one.. Thanks

Hard to guess but spiders might still be more than albinos in 06. Maybe you should even breed the albino het girls to the spider too rather than an albino male. Either way on average 50% visible morphs and a spider that is 50% chance het albino might still be worth more than an albino. Maybe wait to the last minute and see if the spider male is breeding strong with the 5 normals and what the prices look like then in late 05. I guess you would also have to figure that with the albino male (I'm assuming you have one) you would get 25% of the clutch as 100% het albino females that would be worth more than the 25% of the clutches as non spider 50% chance het albino females with the spider male. Also you might want to have some of your own produce albino females to hold back for when they are eventually worth more than the spiders if the two morphs haven’t inverted yet by 06. Fun to have choices!

I would go for the super pastel. Why?

Once you produce one super pastel, you can produce clutches that are half pastel and half super pastel. From there, you can do a super pastel x spider and get half pastels and half bumblebees.

If you produce a bumblebee, you will only have pastels to cross it with and you get:
1/8 killer bee, which is darn hard to sell
1/8 super pastel, which you will need to hold back
1/4 bumblebee
1/4 pastel, which you can already produce
1/8 spider, which you can done in a breeding with a normal
1/8 normal, enough said

So, if you look at what you'll have two generations down instead of just one, you are much better off with the super pastel. You'll have better odds and more of both super pastels and bumblebees. You lose out on the chance to produce a killerbee, but your odds are not great anyway and it is not easy to sell such an expensive animal especially if you haven't made a name for yourself in the hobby yet.

IMO, I go with some Spiders also. I am planning to get some real soon.

DragonDavy

I also plan on looking into buying a spiderball next year, even though I suspect they will drop even faster then you think they will. They won't keep dropping in price forever and once they hit a certain pricepoint demand will once again exceed supply, simpley because they are a good looking snake and people want them. I would not however forego the opportunity to produce a superpastel. I have a friend who produced a male super last year and this year he bought a female spider just for him. This just makes good sense to me, every egg will be a pastel and half of them will be bumblebees. So I guess what I'm saying is get the spider, but keep trying for the superpastel.

Mark

>>Well, I'm spending today sitting infront of my spreedsheets and trying to figure out what direction I want to go and would love some feedback from others planning for the next few years ahead....
>>
>>I'm currently debating the purchase of a male pied and 5 pos het females ($10,000)or a male spider ($7K purchased now for an 05 breeder or more than likely with price drop $5K for an 06 breeder). I know I'm going to hear buy what you like most, however this does not apply as I could produce bumbles next year with the spider (complete toss up for me regarding favorites between pied and bumblee).
>>
>>So I need to look at the business end of things as I've got $21K this year alone invested in new balls and enclosures already, we all have to pay the bills.
>>
>>With the spider I could produce bumblees, but would have to give up producing a super pastel. I'm also leary on the price of spiders falling quickly to the $2k level by the time 2006 eggs hatch...
>>
>>I'd love to here what others are estimating offspring values at for the coming years for small breeders.
>>
>>Pastels 05 offspring 06 offspring
>>males $800 $500
>>femals $1500 $1K
>>Super $8K $5K
>>
>>Spiders 05 offspring 06 offspring
>>Males $5K $3K
>>Femals $3K $2K
>>Bumblees $12K $8K
>>
>>I know NERD has bumblees listed at $38K and another breeder has them listed at $25K but the real cash value of these I only see around $15K right now at best.
>>
>>I know some people look down at the money side of things however I'm taking advice from eugene bassett who told me awhile back that you have to look at this as a business and not a hobby if want to ever go full time with it. Look at it as a business that is your hobby and job that you love. 2 years out is my full time goal.....
>>
>>Thanks for the feedback all, share your thoughts here or email me if'd you'd prefer.
>>
>>
>>Running out of room, so this weeks project, get the cars our of the garage and add an addition room. In the middle of this project, cut the garage in half adding an a room 20ft x 13ft....
>>

It would give me a nice year next year.

Albino with 5 het females
Spider with 5 normal females
and Pastel x pastel fingers crossed for a super.

The following year I'll have an additional 10 - 12 females up to size and be in great shape to produce a good number of each.

Thanks all,

old pastel pic

Sweet Pastel and good luck.

DragonDavy

Recessive's will have a better long term value on investement then co-doms. If you are plaaning for the long term, Piebalds will still command big coins in 5, 10 years! Look at the Albinos, still a $2500 snake some 8 years after first hitting the market...

Co-doms are the hot item now BUT it won't last...

Still, he might be gambling between half clutches of $2,500 spiders from a $7K spider X 5 normal females in 06 vs. the $10K pied project with half clutches from half of the 5 possible het pied females producing $2,500 pieds in 07. Lots of guess work as to when and what will produce and what the price might be but you are probably right, somewhere like 5 - 10 years down the road the pied project might be more profitable for him than the spider project because he will hopefully have the 2 or 3 proven het pied girls for years to come after spiders are well under pied price. There is also the extra $3K initial investment in the pied project to consider and the possibility that none of the possible het pied girls are hets (have they been picked through?). I'm not saying it's a slam-dunk decision either way. I'm just saying I'd guess the spider way even though I hope to produce pieds next year and don't foresee having spiders of my own for years.

>>I'd love to here what others are estimating offspring values at for the coming years for small breeders.
>>
>>Pastels 05 offspring 06 offspring
>>males $800 $500
>>femals $1500 $1K
>>Super $8K $5K
>>
>>Spiders 05 offspring 06 offspring
>>Males $5K $3K
>>Femals $3K $2K
>>Bumblees $12K $8K
>>

The big breeders priced the pastels pretty close to the same price in 2004 as they did in 2003.
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JMHO, FWIW, YMMV.

Get the spider but get a female, not a male. The females are less expensive and you can still have your shot at a super pastel this year and try for bumblebees when the spider is big enough, probably by next year.

Cheryl

and the lenght of time to get her breeding scares the hell out of me...

but if you want to eventually have bumblebees (awesome morph)you don't know if you'll get a male or female super pastel when you do get one. Keep back a male spider when you get one. Prices will drop, but in the long run you'll still be ahead of the game (I think, haven't "cruched the numbers" in the long run.

Let's see
possibly breed her next year
pastel x spider = half spiders, half pastels, maybe a bumblebee

projected 06 prices - clutch of 4 - low balled
2.0 pastels $1000 0.2 spiders $4000

So she's paid for plus her care and feeding for the year, and that's low prices, however you still wouldn't have your male. Let's do it more realistically

1.1 pastels $1500 1.1 spiders $5000

subtract $3000 for the male you're keeping and you're still about $1000 in the hole plus the care and feeding costs BUT now you have a pair of spiders for the cost of about $1500 (difference care and feeding) and maybe you'll have your male or female super pastel by now. The male spider should be ready to breed that first year and you'll surely make up the deficit (sp?) and be in the gravy even with reduced prices.

Cheryl

about all the extra normal females. Go for the male spider!

cheryl,

" pastel x spider = half spiders, half pastels, maybe a bumblebee "

I'm not following you.

pastel Pp x spider Ss = 25%bumblebee, 25%pastel, 25%spider, 25%normal. probability wise

Thats what I come up with
TomChambers

Sorry - not too good at co-doms yet! Especially when there'e 2 involved but I guess you noticed that.