Reptile & Amphibian Forums

With all the CB BRBs I see advertised for sale, why is there a need for WC specimens? Does a WC gene pool add anything to, or strengthen future generations? Should'nt we have bred all desireable traits into the CB specimens by now?
Why remove them from their enviornment?
Just curious.

Burmaboy,
...IMO this is a good topic for discusssion. We probably do not need to add any WC lines to our breeding collections. Most of the CB BRBs available are less than 10 generations removed from WC stock. In fact the majority of them are less than 5 generations away from WC stock. Our selective breeding for traits that we consider desireably may eventually make it necessary to bring in some unrelated bloodlines. We do not know if inbreeding depression will occur after 20 generations or will take much longer. BRBs are already protected from collecting and/or export over much of their range. The ones that are being exported come from only a part of their range. Many South American countries protect them from export while some other countries allow export. The protection from export is probably only minimally affective. If all the trade in WC BRBs were to stop it would make very little difference in the long term viability of these snakes in the wild. The number that are captured for the animal trade is much smaller than the number that die due to habitat destruction and malicious and accidental killing. Because the range of these snakes is so large it is not likely that they will face overall extinction anytime soon. Because of this it is not likely that they will be upgraded on the CITES list and so their limited export from at least some countries will likely continue.
Jeff

>>With all the CB BRBs I see advertised for sale, why is there a need for WC specimens? Does a WC gene pool add anything to, or strengthen future generations? Should'nt we have bred all desireable traits into the CB specimens by now?
>>Why remove them from their enviornment?
>>Just curious.

Jeff...while I think your answer is very vaild, there is one part that is IMO, questionable.
You state, that the number that is wild caught, is minimal compared to mailicious and accidental killing, habitat lost etc.
But when the number of WC is added to the above numbers...
Essentially, what is the total number of animals removed from their habitat? How about in areas that are protected, yet poached? Is this number added in?
Or the total not just exported to the US, but worldwide.
Or is the BRB that prolific in the wild, that their long term population numbers can support this amount of exploitation?
The bigger question is why, do we need to import them, when there are so many CCB available?

Burmaboy,
....I think we agree that there is no longer a need to import them. I would guess that the number that die due to maliciousness and accident and habitat destruction is at least 100 times higher than the number that are exported.
Jeff

>>Jeff...while I think your answer is very vaild, there is one part that is IMO, questionable.
>>You state, that the number that is wild caught, is minimal compared to mailicious and accidental killing, habitat lost etc.
>>But when the number of WC is added to the above numbers...
>>Essentially, what is the total number of animals removed from their habitat? How about in areas that are protected, yet poached? Is this number added in?
>>Or the total not just exported to the US, but worldwide.
>>Or is the BRB that prolific in the wild, that their long term population numbers can support this amount of exploitation?
>>The bigger question is why, do we need to import them, when there are so many CCB available?

You know, the price of a CB Brazilian has come down quite a bit since I began breeding them. Since it has become much more affordable to have a captive born baby (that has been selected to show particular genetic traits) who would want to purchase a wild caught one? Maybe the occasional breeder who wants to boost stock. One of the positive aspects of captive breeding is that it makes it less profitable to remove animals from the wild (positive for the wild population anyway). It's regulated from the inside. As we produce more and more animals through captive breeding, less and less are taken from the wild. I believe that Ball Pythons used to be taken in a very irresponsible manner. But, I would guess, that it is becoming harder and harder to find WC Ball Pythons because of the breeding explosion. How many WC Burmese Pythons or Boa Constrictors do we see? Am I right about this? It makes sense but I have no source to back myself up.

Good Topic,

Mike

Balls and burms are still brought into the country in huge numbers. Morphology is driving the impot market now. Many shipments are moved in the hopes of finding the next diamond in the rough. The next "Spider," or "Motley."

Chris O
-----
www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

The reason I begin this topic was that I was looking through the ads, and saw one for a WC BRB.
I sort of asked myself...why?
I saw no reason for wc. Same goes in a lot of other species.
There are many BRBs already available, with many desirable traits, that wont be found in WC specimen.
I'm looking for a response from a dealer that sells WC livestock.
Any takers?
Or does greed, drive the market? Can't blame those that harvest the animals. In areas where food water and money might be scarce, it is a great way to support your family.
But... the market exists because we allow it to thrive by purchasing WC...not just snakes, but lizards, turtles,mammals, and birds.
All wildlife suffers.I'm not a tree hugger. Just concerned about the effects on overexploitation.
Again we can justify the harvest by the low numbers of captured animals compared to poached or displaced animals.
But remember, that number still needs to be added to the total harvest.
How long can a certain population handle that volume of harvest?

Was reading ads once again.
Saw an ad for "Imported" BRBs...is that a fancy way of saying WC?

The WC LTC for sale has been advertised at least 5 months. What does that tell you?

>>Was reading ads once again.
>>Saw an ad for "Imported" BRBs...is that a fancy way of saying WC?

Mike,
...It is still real easy to find an imported Ball Python. Just look for one that is advertised as CB and there is a fair chance that it is really an import. They are still being imported. Balls have small litters and they are not real easy to breed so that the number of CB ones is nowhere near as big as the number of imported ones for sale.
Jeff

>>You know, the price of a CB Brazilian has come down quite a bit since I began breeding them. Since it has become much more affordable to have a captive born baby (that has been selected to show particular genetic traits) who would want to purchase a wild caught one? Maybe the occasional breeder who wants to boost stock. One of the positive aspects of captive breeding is that it makes it less profitable to remove animals from the wild (positive for the wild population anyway). It's regulated from the inside. As we produce more and more animals through captive breeding, less and less are taken from the wild. I believe that Ball Pythons used to be taken in a very irresponsible manner. But, I would guess, that it is becoming harder and harder to find WC Ball Pythons because of the breeding explosion. How many WC Burmese Pythons or Boa Constrictors do we see? Am I right about this? It makes sense but I have no source to back myself up.
>>
>>Good Topic,
>>
>>Mike

Mike,
...I went to the CITES website and did some looking around. I found gross export trade reports which showed a total of 1200 to 1500 Epicrates cenchria exported total worldwide each year 2000 to 2003. The numbers for Python Regius were 250,000 plus exported worldwide each year 2000 to 2003. No data available for 2004 yet but the numbers for 2003 were pretty similar to the numbers for 2000. Of course the US was at the top in numbers for importing both of these species. I do not know for sure but I would guess that both Rainbow Boas and Ball Pythons are captive produced at levels of somewhere between 5000 and 20000 per year here in the US. If I am right then it would be accurate to say that most (by an enormous majority) of the Rainbow Boas offered for sale in the US are CB and most (by an enormous majority) of the Ball Pythons offered for sale in the US are imports. There was some research done a couple years ago that concluded that the huge export of BPs out of 4 or 5 African nations was actaully a sustainable yield which did not significantly impact the wild population numbers of BPs in those countries. Hard to believe but definitely worthy of consideration. I will end with one last guess on my part. I would guess that the number of Epicrates cenchria killed by humans for bush meat, malicious reasons, accidentally hit by automobiles and eradicated due to habitat destruction would exceed the number exported by a factor of 100 or more to one.
Jeff

>>You know, the price of a CB Brazilian has come down quite a bit since I began breeding them. Since it has become much more affordable to have a captive born baby (that has been selected to show particular genetic traits) who would want to purchase a wild caught one? Maybe the occasional breeder who wants to boost stock. One of the positive aspects of captive breeding is that it makes it less profitable to remove animals from the wild (positive for the wild population anyway). It's regulated from the inside. As we produce more and more animals through captive breeding, less and less are taken from the wild. I believe that Ball Pythons used to be taken in a very irresponsible manner. But, I would guess, that it is becoming harder and harder to find WC Ball Pythons because of the breeding explosion. How many WC Burmese Pythons or Boa Constrictors do we see? Am I right about this? It makes sense but I have no source to back myself up.
>>
>>Good Topic,
>>
>>Mike

Jeff,

Thanks for pointing me to this site. Once I learn how to use it, I think it will become a favorite. I'm having a hard time navigating it but I'll practice over the next few weeks. I was able to come up with similar numbers when I did a search for Epicrates. I didn't get any results when searching for Python.
After posting my last message to the forum, I remembered talking to a friend of mine about the importation of ball pythons. Now that you mention it, he spoke of numbers similar to this. He said that he believed there would continue to high numbers imported because there is no money in captive breeding of these animals. It's hard for a breeder to compete when imported babies are selling for 10-20 dollars each.
If the current imports are not hurting the wild populations then so be it. Eventually, maybe we will all just have to start breeding ball pythons out of the goodness of our hearts. Are we off topic yet? Anyway, thanks again for the reference,

Mike

Mike...Jeff...
The key words were hit on here.
"Sustainable yield".
That is what's important. That Wild Harvest, plus all other means of exploitation are within a sustainable yield.
With the BP...can some of those high numbers be attributed to "farmed" animals?
Another key here...it's hard for a breeder to compete with an imported animal costing $10-$20.
I try to be idealistic, but I do understand this is a cost driven market.
I hunt, I fish...I lobby on behalf of both outdoor sports.
I do understand the meaning of sustainable yield.
We would all love to see the wild capture, and importation end. But as long as a population can withstand these harvest numbers.There will be a market.
Seeing the amount of CB BRB...my other real question is Why?
Is there a need to import these? Where is the justification.
Not trying to start a flame war here. Just looking for honest answers.

Burmaboy,
....The majority of those imported BPs are captive hatched from WC gravid snakes. Most of them get hatched in the west African nations where they are collected. Some of them get imported as eggs and hatched here in the US. I did not see the data on the CITES site about importing BP eggs but I know people who have in the past seen thousands of BP eggs incubating at the importers in Florida.
.... The range of the different subspecies of Rainbow Boas covers an area greater than a million square miles. If there are only one Rainbow Boas on each of those square miles that would make a wild population greater than one million. These snakes reproduce in fairly large numbers and like all snakes have extemely high natural losses. Those 1200 to 1600 exported per year may represent less than one hundredth of one percent of the number that die due to natural causes. I think we agree that there is no need for us to import WC Rainbow Boas. I think the area where we disagree is in the amount of impact that the animal trade has on the wild population.
Jeff

>>Mike...Jeff...
>>The key words were hit on here.
>>"Sustainable yield".
>>That is what's important. That Wild Harvest, plus all other means of exploitation are within a sustainable yield.
>>With the BP...can some of those high numbers be attributed to "farmed" animals?
>>Another key here...it's hard for a breeder to compete with an imported animal costing $10-$20.
>>I try to be idealistic, but I do understand this is a cost driven market.
>>I hunt, I fish...I lobby on behalf of both outdoor sports.
>>I do understand the meaning of sustainable yield.
>>We would all love to see the wild capture, and importation end. But as long as a population can withstand these harvest numbers.There will be a market.
>>Seeing the amount of CB BRB...my other real question is Why?
>>Is there a need to import these? Where is the justification.
>>Not trying to start a flame war here. Just looking for honest answers.

Just my 4 cents worth (cost keep going up) Now I haven't looked at that site but I would imagine that fewer rainbows are imported now(compared to CB) then in the past. There are species that need to be protected but sadly when it gets to that point some people just really have to have one and thus the illegal trade. I for one wouldn't want to see the taking of wild Rainbows stopped or made illegal as long as it doesn't affect the over all health of wild populations. One of the reasons I'd like to see it continue is that once it is outlawed it's very difficult to make it legal again and you never know we may someday for whatever reason need a few WCs.
Randy

>>Burmaboy,
>>....The majority of those imported BPs are captive hatched from WC gravid snakes. Most of them get hatched in the west African nations where they are collected. Some of them get imported as eggs and hatched here in the US. I did not see the data on the CITES site about importing BP eggs but I know people who have in the past seen thousands of BP eggs incubating at the importers in Florida.
>>.... The range of the different subspecies of Rainbow Boas covers an area greater than a million square miles. If there are only one Rainbow Boas on each of those square miles that would make a wild population greater than one million. These snakes reproduce in fairly large numbers and like all snakes have extemely high natural losses. Those 1200 to 1600 exported per year may represent less than one hundredth of one percent of the number that die due to natural causes. I think we agree that there is no need for us to import WC Rainbow Boas. I think the area where we disagree is in the amount of impact that the animal trade has on the wild population.
>>Jeff
>>
>>>>Mike...Jeff...
>>>>The key words were hit on here.
>>>>"Sustainable yield".
>>>>That is what's important. That Wild Harvest, plus all other means of exploitation are within a sustainable yield.
>>>>With the BP...can some of those high numbers be attributed to "farmed" animals?
>>>>Another key here...it's hard for a breeder to compete with an imported animal costing $10-$20.
>>>>I try to be idealistic, but I do understand this is a cost driven market.
>>>>I hunt, I fish...I lobby on behalf of both outdoor sports.
>>>>I do understand the meaning of sustainable yield.
>>>>We would all love to see the wild capture, and importation end. But as long as a population can withstand these harvest numbers.There will be a market.
>>>>Seeing the amount of CB BRB...my other real question is Why?
>>>>Is there a need to import these? Where is the justification.
>>>>Not trying to start a flame war here. Just looking for honest answers.
-----
Honey have you seen the Cat lately !!

Mike,
...I too find that website very interesting. It is darned hard to navigate to find what you want but when you find the info it can be very enlighteneing. I have seen imported BPs for as low as $2.50 each in quantity.
Jeff

>>Jeff,
>>
>> Thanks for pointing me to this site. Once I learn how to use it, I think it will become a favorite. I'm having a hard time navigating it but I'll practice over the next few weeks. I was able to come up with similar numbers when I did a search for Epicrates. I didn't get any results when searching for Python.
>> After posting my last message to the forum, I remembered talking to a friend of mine about the importation of ball pythons. Now that you mention it, he spoke of numbers similar to this. He said that he believed there would continue to high numbers imported because there is no money in captive breeding of these animals. It's hard for a breeder to compete when imported babies are selling for 10-20 dollars each.
>> If the current imports are not hurting the wild populations then so be it. Eventually, maybe we will all just have to start breeding ball pythons out of the goodness of our hearts. Are we off topic yet? Anyway, thanks again for the reference,
>>
>>Mike

I'll go back with more time because in the brief 5 minutes I looked at it all I saw was a pic of a not so Peruvian looking Pervian Rainbow.

/

it disappeared before I looked. Maybe I wasn't looking at the right place but I Googled CITES and checked out the first listing!

....I just noticed that the last few years the US has exported between 145 and 298 Rainbow Boas per year. We have no way of knowing how many of these are CB here in the US and how many were imported WC and then re-exported from here. Most recent years the US has been the 4th or 5th largest exporter of Rainbow Boas. Don't look at me though. I have always turned down requests to ship across international borders. The packet of paperwork required by US fish and wildlife to comply with CITES is more than I want to mess with.
Jeff

>>Mike,
>>...I went to the CITES website and did some looking around. I found gross export trade reports which showed a total of 1200 to 1500 Epicrates cenchria exported total worldwide each year 2000 to 2003. The numbers for Python Regius were 250,000 plus exported worldwide each year 2000 to 2003. No data available for 2004 yet but the numbers for 2003 were pretty similar to the numbers for 2000. Of course the US was at the top in numbers for importing both of these species. I do not know for sure but I would guess that both Rainbow Boas and Ball Pythons are captive produced at levels of somewhere between 5000 and 20000 per year here in the US. If I am right then it would be accurate to say that most (by an enormous majority) of the Rainbow Boas offered for sale in the US are CB and most (by an enormous majority) of the Ball Pythons offered for sale in the US are imports. There was some research done a couple years ago that concluded that the huge export of BPs out of 4 or 5 African nations was actaully a sustainable yield which did not significantly impact the wild population numbers of BPs in those countries. Hard to believe but definitely worthy of consideration. I will end with one last guess on my part. I would guess that the number of Epicrates cenchria killed by humans for bush meat, malicious reasons, accidentally hit by automobiles and eradicated due to habitat destruction would exceed the number exported by a factor of 100 or more to one.
>>Jeff
>>
>>>>You know, the price of a CB Brazilian has come down quite a bit since I began breeding them. Since it has become much more affordable to have a captive born baby (that has been selected to show particular genetic traits) who would want to purchase a wild caught one? Maybe the occasional breeder who wants to boost stock. One of the positive aspects of captive breeding is that it makes it less profitable to remove animals from the wild (positive for the wild population anyway). It's regulated from the inside. As we produce more and more animals through captive breeding, less and less are taken from the wild. I believe that Ball Pythons used to be taken in a very irresponsible manner. But, I would guess, that it is becoming harder and harder to find WC Ball Pythons because of the breeding explosion. How many WC Burmese Pythons or Boa Constrictors do we see? Am I right about this? It makes sense but I have no source to back myself up.
>>>>
>>>>Good Topic,
>>>>
>>>>Mike

First off...I actually agree with all of you. We probably will need to import a few to keep bloodlines fresh. Although we probably have enough CB BRB's to accomplish that, but as another poster said...we may need to import from time to time for whatever reason. The bigger the gene pool, the healthier.
And I've no problem at all with sustainable yields, or controlled harvest.
Deer, are harvested, yet there is no shortage...fish...harvested...no shortage. So yes we can have sustainable yields. And with some species,not just BRBs or snakes in general, but all species, the gene pool is so very small we need to add WC blood.
Again, I was just looking for the reasons we import a snake such as the BRB, when so many CB animals are available. I got my answer, and the justification for importing.
Thanks!
Bob

wild caught animals tend to be cheaper the captive bred, and there is always (even if it is small) chance that they could carry a color morph gene. Although with reptiles, inbreeding isn't a problem until 4th-10th generations depending on the type of animal, it is always good to get fresh blood in there. As a moral question, it is up to the keeper to deside if it is wrong or not. In my experience, at a place I use to work, all the wild caught BRB that weren't given large enclousers most developed upper respritory infections. WC seem to need a lot more attention then CBs but it is understandable.
-----
Alone, alone, all, all alone. Alone on a wide, wide sea.
-Rime of the ancient Mariner

I can speak from some breeding experience with many different animals, but namely from the champion bird dogs I've bred, that inbreeding isn't a problem when done correctly.
I'm sure the same rules of genetics apply to reptiles as well as animals. Poor genetic makeup is poor genetic makeup...reptilian or other species. If one is going to use inbreeding as a way of breeding, then be prepared to cull your animals.
When you get to a 4th or 10th generation? What did you mean by that?
Any animal 4 to 10 generations removed from the original pair...well pretty much after the third generation, the original pair contributes very little. Or were you talking about inbreeding 4-10 consecutive generations?
Do that, and you are just asking, no begging for problems.
I know this is oversimplification. But I'm too tired to type more.