Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, what started out to be a nasty post below, brought out a good question. Thomas who is apparently a Locality Breeder or simply a locality believer (I don’t know if Thomas breeds animals or not, I don’t know him). Asked what do you do with all the crosses that are “byproducts”, for lack of a better name, while breeding morphs. Before I answer this question, I would like to preface it a bit…..

1) None of us breeders are ever going to release our beloved animals back into the wild to repopulate dwindling boa population. It can’t be done, we have breed these animals in a fairly sterile environment for so long that they would not have the needed immune system nor the naturally occurring beneficial/symbiotic digestive flora to survive.
2) Locality Line breeding for looks, color, temperament is everything that that Morph breeding is. The only difference is the few self righteous breeders who truly (and falsely) believe that their breeding of these animals serves a higher purpose.
3)All breeders breed to make money. Whether it is to support their own hobby (this is not a cheap hobby), make some cash on the side so they do not have to get second jobs, or because it is their main source of income, breeders are not giving away their animals.

Now with all that out of the way here are some thoughts about those non-morph byproduct animals…..
I have been breeding animals (mostly snakes but all kinds of animals, birds, lizards, mammals, insects, fish) for going on 25 years now and I have seen the reptile trade make dramatic changes over that time and the question about the “byproduct animals” is not a new one.

Most have been sold as Hets, 50% hets, 66% hets and so on as a low cost alternative to the true morph. Some of the other animals that are starting to come out are the morph x locality. Seeing that the Salmontine Boa was mentioned first I will explain what I do with these cross animals. (by the way Mike and Steph really did come across a great morph boa with these. These animals are beautiful with amazing pinks and orange colors)
The Argentine/Colombian Boa cross is not a particularly good looking boa in the normal flashy color side of things but they do still have useful genes that make nice looks. A non Hypo cross can easily be breed back to a hypo cross to reduce the darker blacks of the Argentine locality. This keeps some of the nice pinks from the locality while making a cleaner Salmontine Hypo (see pictures below), but you can only use so many of those….

One of my favorite things to do with animals that do not have an overly substantial value to them is to give them away to younger herpers. With permission from Mom or Dad I have giving away dozens of snakes to co-worker’s and family friend’s children. I do this not to dump my animals off but to encourage a new and next generation of Herpers. I will go over the requirements with them, lone them reading materials, if they follow through they then come back for breeding and genetic advice. The children all of a sudden watch more educational TV (Discovery and Animal Planet) then they spend time playing overly violent video games, they start reading and you know, they are even learning a few things that will help them in their schooling (just don’t tell them that). I think that providing them with a “start up animal” (much better then breeding byproduct don’t you think) and getting them interested in Herping is much more important then the $40.00 dollars that you could get jobbing the animals out before the expo.

Not everyone can afford the crazy prices that we get for our morphs, and many others can get involved into herping just by a bit of generosity and sharing for the more experienced herpers. These kids will one day grow up and become interested in Morphs and also will become valued customers to us all. It helps create and ensure the hobby to live on.
Thanks for reading
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

Hey Hoppy, what you wrote is right! When I was a young boy at 10, all I dreamed about was owning my own boa. I ended up with a green anole instead...my mom and dad just could not spend the $200 bucks for a boa, (pet shop price at time)30 years ago 1975.

If someone would have given me a boa, I would have been thrilled, I know my parents would have said yes, they just could not see paying those prices.

I know I will be helping future herpers as well. I have plans to do like you ...giving away some to kids who just can't afford them.

My thoughts about lacality is this.. If you breed locality and make your living that way...fine. There will always be a place for true local animals.

People love the look of the morphs...they really are beautiful.

Show someone a sunglow...it blows their mind...these animals are just incredible!

My 2 cents....Andy

I personally like some of these byproducts. I have a pretty much even split between locales and morphs. Then there are my two crosses. I am not going to add more to what you said, you covered it all and very well said!
Here is a pic of my Argentine X Colombian (some come out nice):

So you give an Argentine/Columbian cross away to a kid, and when that snake gets too big for the parents, they take it to the local pet store, who then sell it to a newbie breeder as a pure animal???

First off if a newbie breeder is going to Petco (or any other generic pet store) to buy his breeding stock, why would he ever assume he is buying anything pure? He/she is either not willing to take the time and learn about this new side business, like so many others that look a reptile breeding as a big money making plan, or he/she is just to lazy do simply read the information produced by those who have been breeding these animals longer then many of these new breeders have been alive. It is not difficult today to breed boas, all you have to do is stand on the shoulders of those who came before you, nobody holds that as a grudge anymore and the information is normally eagerly shared. But in the current environment of immediate satisfaction with the least amount of work, if the newbie breeder does not have the ability to spot a cross from two distinct localities, or they are trying to sell their origin unknown babies as specific locality boas, then they will learn the hard way as they try to sell something they do not have.
It is not the reptile breeders responsibility to assure that ever single person who may ever own the snake they have bred will know it’s exact origin. People are so willing to pass of responsibility to someone else and not take blame for doing their own homework. If you are truly wanting to get involved in Reptile breeding then I suggest you (and I don’t mean you specifically but the newbie breeder we are discussing) but some effort in it, or you will prove out to be just another fly by night breeder who thought they could make money doing this.
Furthermore if they newbie breeder is unwilling to put the time into learning about their snake, then I doubt that they will have much, if any success of breeding. Just one more thought on the subject, if the newbie breeder does strike blind luck (as I did in my first breeding long ago) and produce babies from his “non-pure” snakes then it is the next buyers responsibility to know what he is buying and if the locality or “pureness” of the snake is important to the buyer then he too should know what he is doing. Basically it is not the breeders responsibility to hold the hands of the worlds wannabees if they themselves will not try and stand on their own two feet. A breeder is responsible for producing quality/healthy animals, making sure they go to a responsible home with proper supervision (if they are for a child), and honestly representing the origins of that animal to the best of his/her knowledge.
If one of my Morphs/crosses blood get into your “pure” locality blood, then it is you (again not you specifically but the breeders in general) who should take responsibility to the impure blood/breeding that you have made. If locality is your thing (and I do have locality specific Boas too, Leticia Colombians, Ecuadorian, and Peruvian) Then you should know where your breeding stock is coming from, because chances are, there is some common Boa Blood in your groups too if the Locality is more then 4 generations captive breed (10-12 years)
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

It sounds like you are trying to pass the buck, and not take responsibility for your breedings. If I happen to purchase a boa and am told it is pure columbian, and it is one of your crosses, that is my fault??? You also talk about not putting in the time and effort....I think crossing an animal, say a Peruvian, with a Columbian Albino to make a "nicer" albino, is taking a shortcut, and not putting in the so called effort.

Well, it sounds like you (and again I mean a hypothetical you not you personally) are looking to pass blame onto someone for your lack of knowledge on Boas. If you are specifically concerned with a pure Colombian Boa then you should know your saddle and scale counts. You should have done your home work and known the general color and look of Colombian vs. the oddly marked coloration of a Argentine/Colombian Boa Cross or the strangely Bright Red Tail of a Peruvian/Colombian Cross. Mixing in the Suriname Blood (which is used more in Albinos then other BCC Localities) with the Albinos is not a short cut it is simply Boa Morph breeding. A short cut it is not as the BCC boas are a bit more difficult to breed then the BCI boas. The breed at different times and make for a more risky breeding.
I am not sure how much more you expect from a breeder then one that
1) produces healthy/quality animals
2) Provides needed information for their care and does everything in his/her power to make sure they go to a good/responsible home.
3)Honestly represents his Boas and provided the genetic heritage for them.
To expect a breeder to know what happens to his boas that he produces for their entire 25 years of life is silly. Again that would be expecting the breeder to be the only person ever to take responsibility for the animal and saying that the future breeder of that animal has no responsibility for breeding the animal that he never did any research on.
I am a fairly well known breeder, although not super big, but I have been around for years and some folks know me. It is not uncommon at all for one breeder to contact me asking about a certain animal that I bred a couple of years ago that they are buying from a secondary breeder. I have even gone so far as to start taken digital photos of all my offspring so I can try to identify them for that purpose (I have been doing that since 1999). But again if locality is important to you then it is your responsibility to know the heritage of your animal. If you don’t know the general look that your animal should have and the proper key counts to identify your animal then “it is your bad” for not doing your home work, spending the money to buy from the known breeder with known heritage, or even caring enough to do a little research on the animal. If you are buying your “pure blood stock” from a pet shop, then shame on you for ever trying to represent those animals as pure in the first place. If you don’t know the animals heritage then you should not be misrepresenting them as pure, that in itself is more of a dishonest act of breeding then anything else and is up there with claiming an animal to be 66% het for something you know it is not.
Again this post is not directed at you personally but the hypothetical you we are discussing as the newbie breeder. This is meant as just a lively debate without any personal attacks or insult intended and I do not write this with malice toward you or anyone else. I am just expressing my opinion on the subject. I do have a great respect for the Locality breeders and in fact I am hoping to produce my first group of locality pure boas in 2006. I do have imported boas as my initial stock and have been raising them for 3 years now to so my best to assure the purity of their bloodline. Of course that also buts the trust in the exporter to make sure that the my Peruvians came from Peru, my Leticias came from Leticia, My Guyana Boas came from Guyana and my Ecuadorian Boas came from Ecuador. I have done my key work and everything possible to assure that these boas are what they should be. See I take responsibility form the Locality of my own Boas, no Pet Store mystery Boas in the mix.
Thanks again for the debate
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

I stand by my post, I feel if you produce hybrids, YOU SHOULD be responsible and chip them, so there is no confusion down the road. Maybe it is a moot point, and too late. Maybe there are too many crosses now, to make it worth while... Some hybrids will look different enough to notice, some will look very, very similar to pure animals, and that is where the problem comes in. I also still contend that if you breed a Peruvian to an Albino Columbian, that is not "morph" breeding, that is crossing two animals, that may, or may not come into contact in the wild. I guess I just look at boa breeding different than most. If you have pure animals, why cross them? I guess we will just agree to disagree, and I will walk away from any deal involving your animals. I also feel that locality breeding should carry into morph breeding. I will not pretend to know the entire history of every animal I have, I have only 4 Boas now, and 30 Balls, but I will ask the breeder of any animal I buy, if it is a cross. If they say no, I go with that. I am not educated enough on scale count, and do not pretend to be.

Well, we can always disagree, that is the beautiful thing about living in a free society. Breeders have different thoughts on how to produce the animals that they want and many will argue their opinion with robust vigor and conviction. It does not make either party more correct in thought then the other, it is just a difference of opinion, much like a person’s favorite color. If I like green and you like blue that does not make either person more evil or bad, just different.

I have actually looked into the chipping of my higher dollar more boas it will run about $30.00 per snake which can easily be put into the cost of a $1500.00 animal, but spend that on an animal that is only $45.00 then it really does not become feasible, so in the practicality of breeding, I will not be chipping, hets, possible hets, non-morph crosses or anything else that is not financially sound to do so. After all I am not in the loss money business, if the hobby can not be self supporting then it is not possible to do it, and no one is breeding for charitable work.

As far as avoiding my animals, that’s a personal shot in your post but fair enough, feel free it is always your choice on who you buy from. If a “Petco” type store is your preferred choice to obtain breeding stock, as opposed to a private breeder with impeccable animals and records on them, that is your choice. It is not wrong, or bad, just your opinion. But just one word of caution to you from an old breeder, if you are going to just take a breeders word on what you are buying without ever being able to confirm it yourself with the needed knowledge then you will be scammed at one point or another, which I would truly hate to see that.

Locality breeding is a great thing and the convictions of some of the breeders are admirable, but without being able to confirm that your stock is what you think you bought, then you really can’t consider yourself a pure locality breeder. You have the desire, the drive and the ability to breed the animals but you are taking someone else’s word on what you are breeding due to lack of knowledge. You will not be able to guarantee someone the purity or heritage of your line because you don’t know it and how would that stand with your own personal convictions? It is contrary to your own stated opinion, isn’t it? At that point you will be using the excuse that “it is what the breeder/pet store told me” while hiding behind the excuse of “I didn’t know any better”. That is not taking responsibility for your own offspring as you sell them, not even mentioning what happens to the snake 3 years later when it is sold to someone else (which I do not believe is your issue, but you stated you do believe it to be).

I am not suggesting that you memorized saddle or scale counts or keep flash cards of what is the generally accepted/normal look for a particular locality, but at least know how to look it up. Whether it is on the web from a reliable place, a friend with that specific knowledge or (god forbid) a book, don’t use the cop out “I thought it was pure” once you have bred a crossed animal yourself because you did not put the effort into verifying your animals.

But now that this string is way down at the bottom of the page, I guess that means it is time to move onto a new topic at the top of the page.

Good Luck with your boas and your breedings, if you need some good information on true locality boas I would suggest that you visit Hermann the German’s Web Site. He is widely knowledgeable about the different localities, a true morph hating breeder and a super good guy, I think you will like him here is his link
http://www.boa-constrictors.com

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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

I have at least 24 months before any of my boas are up to breeding size, giving me plenty of time to double check on the lineage and go from there. The "crack" that I have purchased any animals from PetCo was pretty weak, I have purchased the vast majority of my collection from Kahl, Sharp, and the Sutherlands, with no animals from pet stores. I also won't say that in the future, I won't breed my Arabesque het Albino male to a Sunglow female. Will I chip all the offspring, no...but will sell them as Arabesque x Sunglow offspring, with no animals going to "little children." I will never deliberately breed a Columbian to an Argentine, or a Columbian to a Brazilian, or anything except a Hogg Island to a Hogg Island. Maybe I am the one who thinks differently than most, as far as keeping morphs as genetcially pure as possible. I guess my final point is I would not breed two different localities togather even if it produced a nicer "morph." On the Sunglow topic, I do not feel as strongly about the "cross" making the sunglows for some reason, maybe because there are so many out there, that speaking up will not do any good. I guess my real worry is that pretty soon all the boas, BCC and BCI will be so interbred that true redtails may not exist, or be recognizable. As for me not buying your animals, I did not mean that I would see your ads and run away, what I meant was that any second hand snake bred by you would always be suspect to me, and therefore would not buy it.

...but what happens to those animals in the future? There three options as I see it: 1)The young herper grows up with their cross as a pet and keeps it until it dies. 2)The young herper grows up to be an avid herper and gets more snakes(which happens very often!) and eventually decides to breed it. Now the dilemma: what to breed it to? Another cross? An Argentine or Colombian, whichever it looks most like(if that was the original cross)? What happens to those babies? 3)The young herper grows bored and gives away or sells the cross. Does the new owner know or care what the cross is? Does this person breed it? What becomes of those babies?
Let's face it, an Argentine/Colombian cross is pretty easily distinguished from their parents but what about the 75% or 87.5% Argentine non-morph byproducts of the future? Even a "big-time" breeder like Dave didn't know what that meant, whilst a life-long keeper like myself did. I don't expect everyone to stop breeding crosses because of what I say here but I think everyone who does should at the very least consider the consequences of their actions. I think I'll make this my new quote:
"Dr. Ian Malcolm: I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here: it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could and before you even knew what you had you patented it and packaged it and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now you're selling it, you want to sell it!" ---Jurassic Park
...or perhaps:
"Dr. Ian Malcolm: The lack of humility before nature that's being displayed here, uh... staggers me."

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JMHO, FWIW, YMMV.

Both points are very valid.
Personally, I think of the boa market as a "buyers beware". When I buy animals....I buy them from names or people I trust. I am generally less likely to buy from people who have not been around for a while. So, when I do buy, I know what I am getting. And, I can trust the breeder to give me a "pure" animal.
I see your points Thomas. Really, I do. I even feel them. Which makes me quite undecided about the "crossing of animals". D@mn the Libra in me!!! LOL! But, I also know, I love them!
Are crosses sent out into the general public? I am sure they are. But, I also feel that if you want something specific.....You need to look for it. If I bought a pet store boa....I really wouldn't trust what I am buying. (As far as it being pure, healthy, whatever.) Pet store animals are at a "certain grade" compared to what I am looking for. (That is not to say that there are some awesome boas that come from pet stores. I have jealously seen them and lusted after them. LOL!) I am generally a pessimest by nature. (As much as I try to be otherwise.) When I buy I pet store boa.....I expect the "worst". And, I do so from experience. When I buy an animal from some one I know and trust.........And, it is not in the shape I expect it to be in....I expect to be "taken care of".
What does this ramble come down to? Buyers beware. If you know the seller and their reputation........You know about the parents of the animals.......Etc. You should know what you have. If you don't know this info. How can you honestly say your animal is "pure".
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

>>Both points are very valid.
>>Personally, I think of the boa market as a "buyers beware". When I buy animals....I buy them from names or people I trust. I am generally less likely to buy from people who have not been around for a while. So, when I do buy, I know what I am getting. And, I can trust the breeder to give me a "pure" animal.
>>I see your points Thomas. Really, I do. I even feel them. Which makes me quite undecided about the "crossing of animals". D@mn the Libra in me!!! LOL! But, I also know, I love them!
>>Are crosses sent out into the general public? I am sure they are. But, I also feel that if you want something specific.....You need to look for it. If I bought a pet store boa....I really wouldn't trust what I am buying. (As far as it being pure, healthy, whatever.) Pet store animals are at a "certain grade" compared to what I am looking for. (That is not to say that there are some awesome boas that come from pet stores. I have jealously seen them and lusted after them. LOL!) I am generally a pessimest by nature. (As much as I try to be otherwise.) When I buy I pet store boa.....I expect the "worst". And, I do so from experience. When I buy an animal from some one I know and trust.........And, it is not in the shape I expect it to be in....I expect to be "taken care of".
>>What does this ramble come down to? Buyers beware. If you know the seller and their reputation........You know about the parents of the animals.......Etc. You should know what you have. If you don't know this info. How can you honestly say your animal is "pure".
>>John
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>>"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

The people that cross Surinams and guyanas and Argentines, When there offspring goes to people who are just getting into the hobby what does that hurt?? Those animals are not going back to the countries they are from, and if they are bred by the new owners, what ever they breed it too, could possibly be the next new morph. There is nothing wrong with giving offspring to people, if they are labeled "pure" its up to the purchaser to make that choice, do I buy it or not. And most people who are going to purchase a "pure" local, I hope will do some research on what they are buying, so that they can make somewhat of an eductated guess. It seems like locality breeders feel like somehow these crosses are going to make it back the country where they are from, and bred with "pure" speciems. IT WON'T happen, those boas are going to stay in private collections, and the morphs will continue.
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"Life is a Safari"

"The people that cross Surinams and guyanas and Argentines, When there offspring goes to people who are just getting into the hobby what does that hurt??"

Nothing at all. I think it's a nice thing to do. Like I said, all animals need a loving home.

Those animals are not going back to the countries they are from, and if they are bred by the new owners, what ever they breed it too, could possibly be the next new morph. There is nothing wrong with giving offspring to people, if they are labeled "pure" its up to the purchaser to make that choice, do I buy it or not. And most people who are going to purchase a "pure" local, I hope will do some research on what they are buying, so that they can make somewhat of an eductated guess. It seems like locality breeders feel like somehow these crosses are going to make it back the country where they are from, and bred with "pure" speciems. IT WON'T happen, those boas are going to stay in private collections, and the morphs will continue.

I think what they are REALLY worried about is the "impurity" getting back into their lines. Or, slowly integrating themselves into all the boas.......So, a "pure" BCI or BCC will never be that again. I think it's a valid concern. Again, I swing both ways. LOL! I love crosses! I always will. I might even produce some. My little secret..........And, I won't tell what. A secret "fantasy" of mine. I also know that I and others will breed only "pure" animals as well. So, I don't fear the integration as much as others. Like I said before, it all comes down to trusted names.
Take care,
John
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>>"Life is a Safari"
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

But don't many of the locality breeders have to at some point get wild caught speceims to outcross with, there are lots of wild caught Surinams and Guyanas making there way into the Herp market, and Last I checked South America wasn't in trouble with low populations of boas. The Boas that are in private collections, I feel are already different from "pure" locals. And if someone wanted to breed "pure" Locals, the only way to really do that is to get wild caught speciems and breed those. Or buy from somone that has bred them from Wild caught parents from that country. I would be vary wary about buying "Pure" Locals, from anybody, You never know what is down the genetic line. Locality Breeders I think should not worry so much about what morph breeders are doing, and live with the fact, that they will not be able to purchase "local" specific Boas, without either getting breeders from the wild, or from someone that has wild bloodlines. But then again, there are many people that claim to have "pure" bloodlines and they may look like it, and then its all in your head, weither you have a pure local or not.
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"Life is a Safari"

then again, you have Hogg Island Boas, which there are none left on the cayos cochinos islands, and keeping those pure is important...I don't know, I wish the market for "pure" locality boas was higher, then there wouldn't be an issue. If a pure Surinam, was the same price as a Sunglow, the locality breeders I don't think would be complaining as much. The Morph craze is full blown, and I don't see it changing in the near future. People are already hybridizing reptiles, like Burms, and retics, and Green trees and jungles. There is no stopping things like that, and there will always be something new every year. I kinda feel bad for "pure" local breeders, They don't get enough credit, and the market is not as big as morphs, But maybe someday there time will come. I respect the Locality breeders, and also admire what the morph breeders are creating. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe there isn't one...
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"Life is a Safari"

This isn't the first time this has been raised. Nor, will it be the last. I have found my "middle ground" with this issue. Everyone draws their own "lines". Everything you are stating is true. I have even said it before. I use to
I think your last post rang true when you said it comes down to respect. I respect locality breeders. I am even thankful that they are around. I also enjoy morphs/crosses that are produced. I intend to own a Salmontine someday! (I better...I'm their biggest self procalmed fan!!!)
All you have posted hit some good points. As with everything....There are two sides.
Take care,
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

That quote is more true in reptile breeding then anywhere else I have come accross, in fact I use it (with my own twist) quite often (see post above). However also see post above for what, I beleive, the responsiblities of a breeder are. If you are concerned enough of your breeders origins and locality pureness then you have only a few options, Buy imports direct (yourself) from the exporters and hope that the locality they send you is truly from where they were collected, go down and feild collect yourself (much paper work, but really nice to say that you personally collected this animal) or trust your breeder is telling you the best information that he has on the animal and that he/she knows the true origin of the animal himself. As I stated before, I am of the opinion that any long term multi-generation locality boa in the US is not going to be of pure blood, like most Americans themselves. I was around and keeping in the late 70's early 80's and know what people were doing then. It was either a BCC or Colombian, all the other locality stuff did not matter and a BCC for Peru was the same as a BCC from Suriname, they were both BCC and bred as if they were pure then, the locality was not really considered.
But enough of this rant. I am typing wat too much LOL.
Thanks for the debate
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

I think that what you are doing,is very honerable Hoppy!An I personally don't understand all the fuss about this anyway!Their is no guarentee for example:columbian's heck their is really no guarentee if it is definatley 100% pure or not who knows if their may or may not have been a cental american blood mixed in their somewhere down the line,cant know one really tall!unless you actually went to columbia an wild caught the parents,but then their isnt no 100% guarentee their either so why all the argueing over this subject!Heck no one wants them ship them too me,I love boa's,but I am a poor boy an berlieve me I have done alott of doing with out to get the ones I do have!An boa gods forgive me if i am wrong but isnt a hypo actually a mutt or in my opinion a beautiful cross into the columbian blood?Thais arguement could go on forever an it just dont make no sence!If you dont like morphs then dont but them!An if we dont like pure locality type boa's we wont buy them!Dang,lol!All the people across the untited states trying to put a stop to exotic animals an we want to argue with one another over weather its a mutt or not,when you know what thempeople dont care if its a salmontine or a pure surnamese redtail!Come on people get with the program folks before we all loose our love for our hobby!Srry for going on an on,An thanks for reading my post!Eric[Hypoboa]