Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted about 2 weeks ago about my seemingly not ill adult female that refused 2 meals, now she has refused her 3rd. She has been eating f/t so I tried a live rat today after she refused a f/t yesterday with no response. I examined her yesterday to the best of my knowledge and couldn't find anything I thought wasn't normal. She's bright and alert and has gained back the weight she lost since her babies the first week of June. She hasn't been weighed. Anyway, I haven't had a sick snake yet, and don't know if she's ill. There aren't anybubbles or mucous coming from her nostrils, she doesn't wheeze or whistle, and she hasn't had diarrhea or regurgitation. She moves about as usual, not staying in one spot more than a few days. I have not used a stethoscope to listen to her. The inside of her mouth seems normal to me.

The differences in her environment include a new BARRS cage the first week in November, a new hide on the cooler side, separation from her male cagemate that same week in November and an an unkown humidity increase. She hasn't eaten since Nov. 28th. Her temps are the same, 76 warm side, 71 cool side. Her body surface temp is 73 both today and yesterday.

I would like to do a fecal, but she hasn't pooped. I don't think she is constipated, I can't feel any mass. What should I do or look for? She hasn't passed any urates for a couple of weeks, I could check for the date.

I think I'll wait for some suggestions and decide what to do. I'm thinking of giving her panacur and or flagyl, doing a culture and sensitivity of her mouth(a microbiologist owes me a favor), and moving her back alone into the Lizard Lounge.

Any suggestions?

Linda

Thanks

Linda,
..She may be okay. It could just be the change in seasons has gotten her off feed. If I was you before doing anything invasive or costing money I would move her back into the exact same environement she had before.
Good Luck,
Jeff

>>I posted about 2 weeks ago about my seemingly not ill adult female that refused 2 meals, now she has refused her 3rd. She has been eating f/t so I tried a live rat today after she refused a f/t yesterday with no response. I examined her yesterday to the best of my knowledge and couldn't find anything I thought wasn't normal. She's bright and alert and has gained back the weight she lost since her babies the first week of June. She hasn't been weighed. Anyway, I haven't had a sick snake yet, and don't know if she's ill. There aren't anybubbles or mucous coming from her nostrils, she doesn't wheeze or whistle, and she hasn't had diarrhea or regurgitation. She moves about as usual, not staying in one spot more than a few days. I have not used a stethoscope to listen to her. The inside of her mouth seems normal to me.
>>
>>The differences in her environment include a new BARRS cage the first week in November, a new hide on the cooler side, separation from her male cagemate that same week in November and an an unkown humidity increase. She hasn't eaten since Nov. 28th. Her temps are the same, 76 warm side, 71 cool side. Her body surface temp is 73 both today and yesterday.
>>
>>I would like to do a fecal, but she hasn't pooped. I don't think she is constipated, I can't feel any mass. What should I do or look for? She hasn't passed any urates for a couple of weeks, I could check for the date.
>>
>>I think I'll wait for some suggestions and decide what to do. I'm thinking of giving her panacur and or flagyl, doing a culture and sensitivity of her mouth(a microbiologist owes me a favor), and moving her back alone into the Lizard Lounge.
>>
>>Any suggestions?
>>
>>Linda

I can move her back tomorrow. I posted this on another forum, somewhat reluctantly, because I figured the resonse would be WARM HER UP !! So far it's true. I may not know what's happenening now, but I think I watch close enough to accomendate their preference for a cooler than most caresheets recommend environment.

Linda,
Are you cooling her this year to breed? Your post has the warm spot at 76 which sounds like a good upper range for cooling. I personally think that BRB's need access to much warmer temps.; mid 80's (I've got some warm spots around 88). They may not utilize these higher temps. often but they definitly do. This morning I used the temp gun on my female who's been basking in one of the warmer areas and the temp of her body was 83.5. I often see them seek out warmer temperatures though usually they seem to like it around 78-80. I think with the cooler temperatures in your area she's too cool to eat.
Hope this is useful,
Paul

posted about 2 weeks ago about my seemingly not ill adult female that refused 2 meals, now she has refused her 3rd. She has been eating f/t so I tried a live rat today after she refused a f/t yesterday with no response. I examined her yesterday to the best of my knowledge and couldn't find anything I thought wasn't normal. She's bright and alert and has gained back the weight she lost since her babies the first week of June. She hasn't been weighed. Anyway, I haven't had a sick snake yet, and don't know if she's ill. There aren't anybubbles or mucous coming from her nostrils, she doesn't wheeze or whistle, and she hasn't had diarrhea or regurgitation. She moves about as usual, not staying in one spot more than a few days. I have not used a stethoscope to listen to her. The inside of her mouth seems normal to me.

The differences in her environment include a new BARRS cage the first week in November, a new hide on the cooler side, separation from her male cagemate that same week in November and an an unkown humidity increase. She hasn't eaten since Nov. 28th. Her temps are the same, 76 warm side, 71 cool side. Her body surface temp is 73 both today and yesterday.

I would like to do a fecal, but she hasn't pooped. I don't think she is constipated, I can't feel any mass. What should I do or look for? She hasn't passed any urates for a couple of weeks, I could check for the date.

I think I'll wait for some suggestions and decide what to do. I'm thinking of giving her panacur and or flagyl, doing a culture and sensitivity of her mouth(a microbiologist owes me a favor), and moving her back alone into the Lizard Lounge.

Any suggestions?

I'm not cooling to breed her. When I cooled the last 2 years I took the temp down to the mid sixties. I don't really know why she's at the temps she's at except that she spends at least 80% of her time on the cooler side so I just didn't raise the heat. I have been assuming her own regulation would indicate what I should do. I may be completely wrong. Sunday night I increased the heat and she's been in the warmer hide ever since. This snake last year ate until 12-31 which was her last meal before having babies in June even at a considerably lower temp. Her temp tonight is 78. I am no longer using a night light heat soure since she's in a different cage so I think another difference is a greater night-time drop.

I didn't move her back to to original cage as was suggested. It will be a bit of a project so I'd like to wait till someone can help me.

Linda

Paul and Linda,
...This is really interesting. My BRBs and Paul's BRBs seem to be living on different planets. When mine have a temperature gradient in a cage they almost always pick spots that keep their bodies in the low to mid 70s. Paul's seem to like much warmer temps. I am now in winter cooling with all my adult snakes. Right now most of my adult BRBs are at 70 degrees. They would be a couple degrees cooler but we are having a very warm january here now. I fed sunday and monday nights and most of them ate. The more I think I know about these snakes the more I know that I don't know.
Jeff

>>I'm not cooling to breed her. When I cooled the last 2 years I took the temp down to the mid sixties. I don't really know why she's at the temps she's at except that she spends at least 80% of her time on the cooler side so I just didn't raise the heat. I have been assuming her own regulation would indicate what I should do. I may be completely wrong. Sunday night I increased the heat and she's been in the warmer hide ever since. This snake last year ate until 12-31 which was her last meal before having babies in June even at a considerably lower temp. Her temp tonight is 78. I am no longer using a night light heat soure since she's in a different cage so I think another difference is a greater night-time drop.
>>
>>I didn't move her back to to original cage as was suggested. It will be a bit of a project so I'd like to wait till someone can help me.
>>
>>Linda

All mine seem to prefer the cooler range also, and I am not concerned about that in general. Since this one snake isn't eating like she normally does I figured a few degrees higher couldn't hurt a thing. Maybe the temps are more inline with what our conditioning and acclimation has allowed them to choose what they prefer. I don't think dropping a hot spot from 88 to 76 should be done overnight, but if done in small increments over a long timespan, a healthy animal should be able to accomadate for the changes over time. At some point their prefrences should change if in the context of their natural habitat is not out of a normal range. I often wonder if RI's are cased by sudden and extreme changes in temp and humidity because of a different bacterial and viral flora due to dramatic shifts in the environment. My thinking is that if large changes occur and a burst and/or reduction in pathogenic organisms are sudden, the captive(as Chris put it..I like that term) cannot develop immunity to those newly introduced organisms and illness occurs. But, in very small increments, a healthy(non-immunosuppresed specimen) will develop antibodies to ward off explosions of the organisms, and become seemingly more resitant to the invading pathogens. So, ultimately, because my temps are lower than what is considered average, they have had adequate time to adjust.

By the way, my possible sick snake retreated to the cooler side sometime today. It seems to me that any changes take about 24 hrs or longer for the snake to "decide".

Linda

Some say Texas IS another world! LOL
-----
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

Interesting discussion. I'm usually a bit hesitant to discuss the temps in my enclosure because it is a bit unusual in that it is completely heated by incandescent lights and has multiple levels. If I had an enclosure that was one level I would have the warm spot around 85 max and the cool end in the low 70's. I also wonder if UTH's versus ambient temps. accounts for why my animals seek out warmer temperatures on occasion; the direct heat right on the belly has to be different than what my animals experience. I also think this is why my BRB's are more active than what I read from others; they need to move around to find the temp that they need at a specific time. A question I've often wondered is if your heating an animal with a UTH do you think the temp recorded on its visible body, such as the back, is the same as on the belly? My guess is not with a cold blooded animal. One thing for sure, I would be hesitant to acclimate a tropical snake to temps in the low to mid 70's. After my last trip to South America I can attest it is warm and humid. I think these snakes are mudders and are comfortable in wet, cooler substrate. But they live where the temps are often in the 80's and probably need these temperatures. They are also nocturnal and I think we probably miss alot of their activity and behavior.
Anyway, my .02 cents.
Paul

OK, since I possed the question I had to get an answer so I put the temp gun on my female kingsnake which stays in an enclosure heated by a UTH (also has an incandescent light on a timer to increase the day time temps). Her back was 79 and the substrate she's laying on was 83.5.
Paul