Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It is 2 days before the Kentucky Reptile expo, where I am attending as a first time vendor after starting a new reptile business. I get an email from the show's organizer, today, that only captive-bred reptiles are allowed. Of course I have stuff like Tokay and Uroplatus geckos that are probably wild-caught. This is stupid. I know Ohio has everyone freaked out, but all of my stuff was legally obtained, and I have invoices to prove it. It is one thing if there had been some notice on this, but 2 days before the show? A CB - only show sounds pretty dull to me, some stuff just isn't captive bred or is cheaper to import.
Kentucky Reptile Expo Website

KY has ALWAYS been a captive born only show. From their website: "The Kentucky Reptile Expo is held each month in Shelbyville, KY and features captive bred reptiles and supplies from some of the top breeders in the country.

If you are not sure of their origin, contact Jason and talk to him about it, you might be able to work something out.

Melis
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Quality Captives

Well not to sound rude but the web site clearly states that the show is of captive bred animals. If you can not adhere to the rule for what ever reason you will have to either talk to the promoter or not attend the show. There are quite a few captive bred only shows out there. While I don't adhere to the hypocrisy that only c.b. animals should be sold there are those that do and if the promoter of a show is one then that is what the vendors have to live with if they wish to vendor at that show.
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Rob Trenor
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Captive Bred Only shows are NOT dull. In fact, I do NOT recommend shows that allow wild-caught. The Mid-Atlantic Reptile Show, which is held annually in Timonium, MD, has been doing CB only for ten years! They have one of the cleanest shows in the country, both in terms of following state laws and the health of the animals. The Maryland DNR has a table there to help answer questions, and several rescue/environmental groups such as the Tortoise Reserve have tables there. The public knows they can get a quality animal there, and the wild populations aren't being exploited. They also have educational presentations from herpetologists at the National Aquarium in Baltimore, vets such as Dr. Stahl of VA (who is also a vendor), and professional breeders. Last year they had an amazing chameleon breeder there that had chams I've never seen before (but I know little about chams, so that's not surprising) and captive bred Aldabran tortoises. I've yet to see a wild-caught show that didn't have large numbers of sick, emaciated, and dying animals.

There is also a pet store in Timonium, 2001: A Fish Odessy, that has made the decision to sell only captive bred animals. So far, it's working. They also refuse to sell animals that show up in rescue regularly, namely sliders, Burmese pythons, and iguanas.

Many herp societies, rescues, and ecological groups are advising the public to request captive bred only, so the public might be driving the market to captive bred anyway.

For me, wild-caught should be for experienced, long-term owners and breeders only, not for the general public. It's not good for the animals, environment, or the owners when they're imported in large numbers. "Cheaper to import" usually means many die along the way and arrive in poor condition, and the public is starting to get savvy as to where their animals come from and won't put up with it for too many more years. I refuse to buy a wild-caught animal, and don't recommend them to those asking for a beginner animal.

As for the show sending you a notice so close to the show, that doesn't sound like a good business practice. How long ago did you request a table? It seems they should have sent you the notcie as soon as your payment was recieved. If you have invoices for your animals, can't you find out if they were CB or WC?

Katrina Smith
Director at Large
Mid-Atlantic Turtle and Tortoise Society
http://www.matts-turtles.org

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Posted by: bgexotics at Thu Jul 3 22:30:11 2003

It is 2 days before the Kentucky Reptile expo, where I am attending as a first time vendor after starting a new reptile business. I get an email from the show's organizer, today, that only captive-bred reptiles are allowed. Of course I have stuff like Tokay and Uroplatus geckos that are probably wild-caught. This is stupid. I know Ohio has everyone freaked out, but all of my stuff was legally obtained, and I have invoices to prove it. It is one thing if there had been some notice on this, but 2 days before the show? A CB - only show sounds pretty dull to me, some stuff just isn't captive bred or is cheaper to import.
Kentucky Reptile Expo Website

"There is also a pet store in Timonium, 2001: A Fish Odessy, that has made the decision to sell only captive bred animals. So far, it's working. They also refuse to sell animals that show up in rescue regularly, namely sliders, Burmese pythons, and iguanas."

Does this store also only sell CB fish. I only ask because it seems rather hypocritical to me to say that you will only sell CB herps and still offer WC fish, and many fish, espescially saltwater species, are still WC. I suppose it would be possible to have a freshwater fish only store and only do only tank raised or farmed fish but you would be eliminating quite a few popular fish from your selection. As far as saltwater goes a very small percentage of those fish are tank raised and the selection of species is rather limited. And before you go all nutso on me, understand that I am wrestling with the same question in my own store. I sell very few WC herps (anoles, firebelly toads and green tree frogs mostly) but I don't see much difference between them and a good many variety of fish that I offer. If I had the money I would love to open a strictly CB store, and that would apply to fish as well.

Steve Schindler

I'm sorry, I realize that my previous post may have sounded a little harsh. Don't get me wrong, I appluad the store in quetion for making those descisions regarding their reptiles. I have made a similar descision myself in what I offer.

Steve Schindler

I don't know about the fish, but will ask. I imagine it's easier to find captive bred reptiles than fish.

Katrina

Maybe I came across the wrong way. After attending the show several times and seeing many animals that weren't captive bred, including this show, I didn't think it mattered so much. Overall it was an excellant show. I support selling captive-bred animals, in fact I obtained many nice captive-bred specimans at the show. If it were possible to obtain captive-bred specimens of some of the more rare reptile species, I would. I agree that captive-bred shows are cleaner. The Kentucky Reptile Expo is one of the cleanest shows I have ever attended. I apologize for my outburst, it just seemed odd to enforce rules at the last minute.

The Kentucky Expo is a wonderful venue for both consumers and vendors. I understand the need to enforce the captive issue now, for several reasons.

1) The recent raids in the midwest have caused many folks to react by complying with the law.

2) Kentucky has some proposed regulations that if passed, will definitely compromise out of state vendors.

Check the message board on the KHS website for more info on these proposed regulations.

http://www.kyherpsoc.org

Later,

Neil
Link

I have been to 2001: A Fish Odyssey. Theyhave nice stiff and I applaud their efforts. I won't sell iguanas or burmese pythons, or any snake that gets huge. The problem is that in the Baltimore/Timonium area, there is a large amount of customers who want big, mean things, like moniters, anacondas, burmese pythons, pirhanas, etc... 2001 loses these customers to the Aquarium Center, they do the bulk of the reptile business there. Of course while working there, there were calls everyday asking us to take their giant snakes, fish, lizards, and crocadiles. I won't order these without payment upfront and a detailed explanation of what is involved. I have already rescued an iguana, and would love to take in other reptiles since I have the room (60 acres).

Consider contacting the MARS Rescue at www.reptileinfo.com or 410-580-0250 if you are interested in adopting. As for customers that want large things, MARS Reptile and Amphibian Rescue may have large Burmese, boas, Savannahs, and others available. They DEFINATELY have iguanas for adoption.

Katrina

Good point, instead of ordering things like burmese pythons and iguanas, try to obtain them from an adoption agency. It seems senseless to me that pet stores will have tanks full of iguanas when there are so many available through adoption and humane societies. I obtained mine from a kid who didn;t realize how much work he is. Actually "Spike" is an exceptionally well-behaved iguana, he hangs out in the trees near my reptile room and comes in at night, and sleeps on the couch in my reptile room. I had a customer who wanted him, but after realizing that he would not be able to care for him properly, I decided to keep him.

and very catch 22. It's called supply and demand from the public. Untill this slows down or stops, this will happen and will cause more laws/bans of some of these animals in city and township ( pus other herps ). Then the ultimate. Too many of these animals not being cared for, ending up at your local animal control place and just basically a problem animal because of size and care and the dim-wit person/s ( I'll add the Pet Store and the Herp Show here as well ) buying. Although we can replace the " Dim-Wit " term with the " not informed " buying person. Maybe we could call on past keepers of such animals to relate the problems and trouble of keeping these animals ( to the general public and perspective buyers ) as they do on past drunk drivers and drug users on a come together like meeting to get the word out. I wouldn't mind to be on the podium and show all my 7 inch scar from a iguana the bit my face some years ago and my 11 inch scar from one of my 15 ft burms on my leg.

Chambo

I occasionally put on herp shows for a variety of audiences and one of the things I've done in the past (when I can get ahold of them) is to take a baby burm and bring it out and get and talk about its general care, where its from etc. and I purposely leave out any mention about the size untill I have covered everything else, then I take out my 10 foot albino and ask if anyone still thinks they have the means to care for a snake this big. Sometimes I won't mention that they are the same species and then for effect I will say something like "this will turn into this in a very short period of time" Hopefully it makes people think twice. The problem is that since I don't buy or sell babies of large reptiles I usually don't have them available. Occasionally a customer will have one and let me borrow it.

Steve Schindler