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OK, Since some of us are in disagreement on the Brooksi/Floridana thing let's look into the played out yet very effective word "Pure". In many cases it is as simply stated as a fact, that something is in pure. In other cases it gets difficult. I myself use the term Brooksi, even though I know the subspecies was taken away in 1991 and is now simply Floridana. What I am wondering is if there's another word we can refer too in some instances. The two things as far as naming which bring about doubt and questions are "Snakes within a range of intergrades" and the flip side, "Snakes that are NOT within a range of intergrades". This gets complicated to many us because it seems a lot of people besides myself still use the term Brooksi. So if they're all technically Floridana then Floridana/Brooksi has a large range across Florida. Take the info from Len Kryskos site and it gets harder to understand seeing he says that Brooksi, which are high yellow Floridana, have been found in or around Naples, Lake Okeechobee, The Kissimee Prairie, Tampa Bay, The Withlacoochee River, Deland and near Jacksonville. Now another important question is are people to assume that ALL Floridana south of Okeechobee are high yellow screamers? If not why would we think that the high yellows and butt ugly ones do not breed and produce babies? So what is "pure"? Should there be a definition specifically for things like these Kings? I personally feel that since Florida is a network of canals and water in general, tiny populations of Brooksi could be anywhere. Especially when thinking of human intervention and even nature affecting that state with storms and hurricanes. If you think this is confusing we better save Goini for a rainy day! Let's talk Tom Stevens

well, i dont beleive there to be such a differance to be its own ssp.course thats my opinion, anyways im sure the hi-yellows are throughout most of fla. via canals,etc,etc kinda like splendida/holbrooki ssp. which i have extensive field exp. in, within their range you will find pockets of populations that tend to be more brown and hi-yellow and other areas that are black&white and all in between and within ranges certain (locales) where they very much appear to be different ssp. when in fact its just a pattern/color trait common to that locale. i beleive the same to be true with floridana. course its also my opinion that there are only really 4 ssp. of getula to begin with (with all others being intergrade getula but not true ssp. but again thats just my opinion
great topic though,,,,,,
thomas davis

Thomas

Please expand on what you believe the 4 subs are and why there are only 4 and why you exclude the others ? Im not pickin a fight here just curious as to why you feel the way you do.

Keith
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okay to start with this is just my opinion and thats all it is, the 4 are: easterns,florida,speckled,california, i beleive all others to be intergrades and some like the apalachicola,blotched,meansi,goini whatever ya wanna call it to be a very established intergrade but still not its own ssp.just like splendida i beleive to be a large ranging established nat.intergrade between cali&speckled but not its own ssp.
im sure others disagree. i beleive that when science was documenting species they named all the variants & intergrades as individual ssp.and that now is being corrected or tried to anyway also genetically i highly doubt there is any REAL differances in any of the getula subs again its just my opinion,,,,,,,great topic,,,,,,,,thomas

I am also thinking it is most simply stated as a color variant but would like to hear more about your theory. Tom Stevens

I question the tendency by some to refer to the snake formerly known as "brooksi" as the true floridana and the rest of them to be the so called peninsula intergrade. I believe that getula and floridana do intergrade in the northern part of the peninsula, but I believe the cane field kings to be floridana. The snake that used to be known as brooksi, I believe to be nothing more than a color variant of floridana. It is well documented that dark colored kings exist in the same general areas as the high yellow colored snakes. I believe this is nothing more than selective pressure at work, as it benefits those snakes that are living in certain habitats (those areas dominated by lime stone for example) to be light in color. Interesting topic!

.. on this Phil.

Very well said! I have been trying to spit that out without writing a novel. This leads me to another great question....which is why was it a subspecies in the first place?? I am going to use that as a title on this thread. I have another thing to throw in the mix.... Thanks for writing! Tom Stevens

Good question! I wonder what the type specimen of floridana looked like and where it originated from?

simply because one was nore melanistic and the other was more hypomelanistic. But they DID group them into subspecies in the past because of very different patterns.
The brooksi-floridana thing was never an issue (to me) because the pattern was identical and the color only slightly lighter in most individuals than others. In other words the brooksi name should have never been invented and as one can see nowadays, it was done away with (someone must have agreed with me, LOL!)
In my home county of Napa, california I used to find lots of cal kings in the wild. Most of them were black and white, but every once in a while I would find one that was brown and white. Guess what: STILL the same species, and those were NEVER grouped into two subspecies. . .
My 1 cent. . .

Good topic, and also interested in other's opinions,
Zee

Here it goes:

If you look at the whole common king (getula) species you can find that all have a dark (brown to black) and a light (white to yellow to orange) pigment in thier natural form.

From west to east you have:

California Kings
Desert Kings
Speckled Kings and Mexican Black Kings to the South
Black Kings
Florida Kings and Appalachicola Kings
Eastern Kings
And Outer Banks Kings

All of these kings in the Getula group convey a DARK and a LIGHT coloration at some time in their life. Nothing has happened different in Florida than California. There are darker and lighter specimens found in various locations of each getula range.
This is why I, too agree that there should have never been a "Brooksi" subspecies since "lighter" colored Floridana are found in various geographical locations in Florida.
What is strange though, is that I will probably refer to all Floridana as Brooksi, because I have become accustomed to it. The only subspecies I believe to be separate from the Floridana is Goini, although it may in fact be an intergrade.
This is what I gather, how about you?
-John Lassiter-

Good word John,
Thirty years ago I lived in Anaheim CA and I was raping and pillaging with the best of them--literally, I went to the same high school as Goanna man Frank Retes. Back then he was snakeman and specifically Kings and Lyres! I made several trips out collecting with him and a whole bunch more on my own. One of my favorite places to go was Anza Borrego. To get there we would go through orange county where we would find coastal Cal kings. At corona we would start heading south. Just south of Corona we would find more banded coastals. As we went further south, in Riverside county, we would find intergradation between bandeds and coastals. One year I took 15 specimens off the road just north of Temecula in a three month span. These would be called abberant now. At temecula we turned left and headed on county roads towards Borrego. There we started finding more pure striping. We eventually turned onto S-3 and found black and white stripes, banded and intergrates. Then down on lower S-2 and through the scissors and east through the narrows we found awesome black and white banded kings. Sometimes we would by pass Corona and head to Riverside then south to palm springs. East of Palm springs we made our way to Joshua Tree and piked up the high white kings that were out there. We also spent time in the Yucca Valley area looking for the best looking of the CA Rosy Boas. But I digress--I also collected in the Laguna Hills. There we found what came to be known as Newport Kings, the abberants that Retes used to develop Banana Kings. The point of this travelog is the deversity in a relatively small area of different forms of Cal. King. They are all the same subspecies of getela. Could this not be the same with floridiana?? But hey what do I know, I'm just a newbie!!!!! By the way I have an old polaroid of a cage with five different forms in the picture. That was back when I didn't know you couldn't keep 'em together! My $.06!

Pat G-C

Preacher Pat

Thats solid info Preacher Pat I would love to hear some old hunting stories from the west and I bet you and Frank have quite a few ! Seems most of the Snake hunting anecdotes I hear are from the east coast. I think with the advent of genetic testing we can put alot of speculation to rest. Then again I dont know squat about genetic testing Im sure its not as easy as throwing a sample into a machine and getting a sheet of data or a ticker tape that shoots out and reads 80% Eastern 10% Nigra 10% Floridana ??? or better yet a robotic voice that says what the makeup is! lol maybe Ive been watching too much Sci Fi channel lol.

Keith

>>Good word John,
>>Thirty years ago I lived in Anaheim CA and I was raping and pillaging with the best of them--literally, I went to the same high school as Goanna man Frank Retes. Back then he was snakeman and specifically Kings and Lyres! I made several trips out collecting with him and a whole bunch more on my own. One of my favorite places to go was Anza Borrego. To get there we would go through orange county where we would find coastal Cal kings. At corona we would start heading south. Just south of Corona we would find more banded coastals. As we went further south, in Riverside county, we would find intergradation between bandeds and coastals. One year I took 15 specimens off the road just north of Temecula in a three month span. These would be called abberant now. At temecula we turned left and headed on county roads towards Borrego. There we started finding more pure striping. We eventually turned onto S-3 and found black and white stripes, banded and intergrates. Then down on lower S-2 and through the scissors and east through the narrows we found awesome black and white banded kings. Sometimes we would by pass Corona and head to Riverside then south to palm springs. East of Palm springs we made our way to Joshua Tree and piked up the high white kings that were out there. We also spent time in the Yucca Valley area looking for the best looking of the CA Rosy Boas. But I digress--I also collected in the Laguna Hills. There we found what came to be known as Newport Kings, the abberants that Retes used to develop Banana Kings. The point of this travelog is the deversity in a relatively small area of different forms of Cal. King. They are all the same subspecies of getela. Could this not be the same with floridiana?? But hey what do I know, I'm just a newbie!!!!! By the way I have an old polaroid of a cage with five different forms in the picture. That was back when I didn't know you couldn't keep 'em together! My $.06!
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>>Pat G-C
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>>Preacher Pat
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I think Pats thread was very good for comparison. How so many different Cal Kings exist in the wild yet they're all Cal Kings. I know this is not exactly the case with Brooksi, Goini Floridana but still....it gives food for thought. Last year I was in Florida, I was looking for normals for my projects at shows and stores. The people I spoke too all looked at me like I was nuts when I was very specific insisting I wanted Brooksi. You do occasionally see ads that say "from high yellow parents" and I pay attention but I am so stuck on this Brooksi term I STILL am skeptical of how those babies will look as adults. With Goini and Cal Kings you can see random color and pattern variants in any given clutch[maybe not every time?] but with Floridana this does not appear as evident? I hatched out some this year that looked like clones of each other. Every single baby had a short stripe on the neck. In comparison to Corns in Florida you see a crillion different versions of them and they're all for the most part Corns. Even in the Corn Snake Manual they show an ugly corn with some yellow rat type striping and claim that is not evidence that it is indeed a cross. You have to wonder why some people earlier than 1991 insisted Brooksi were different, I am talking about as far as color...bringing thier supposed range into this makes it 1000 times harder to figure???? Thanks for the input guys I am enjoying this discussion! Tom Stevens

Do you mean they were still the same subspecies and another subspecies was not created due to slight color differences? If so, I totally agree.

Here is what I think. I think most if not all of Florida had light colored Kings that looked more like Brooksi. I think Eastern King genetics worked their way down from the north. Thats why you see small pockets of light colored animals as they are remnants possibly of the old school Kingsnake that inhabitated Florida. I think the lighter colored Floridana have been getting swamped out for many of years bfore anybody was even there maybe. I know Kysko did genetic work on them but if your sample is already swamped out genetically what do you compare it to ??? The question is what did the Kings look like in Florida before we moved in ? We may never know.

Changing gears a bit... I think the Easterns of s. Georgia for the most part have a bit of Apalachicola influence then any Floridana influence. When you look at the Easterns from the eastern coast of N Florida and eastern S. Georgias they appear to have more Floridana influence. Why is this I wonder ??? Was there a natural barrier at one time thru Florida ? As this barrier went away the Eastern genetics was possibly able to make its way south. You would think if the mafority of Eastern in S. Georgia was influnced by Floridana then the crossbar counts would be considerably higher but that doesnt seem to be the case except in eastern S. Geargia (Darien etc...). Ive always wanted for someone to compare the genetics of say a Monmouth Co., NJ Eastern (this is the northern most point of the Eastern Kings range) to say some of the Easterns from NC and down. I think if you are talking pure whatever I think for one the word pure is not to be taken literally as in pure gold.I think using the word in the context of snakes and how we use it more or less conveys an idea in that this is a Eastern or this is a Speckled and its not from an intergrade range etc... So for a snake to be "pure" I think that it would be the ones that are not from an intergration zone(s). Now of course there are Kings that are near intergration zones and they may show hints of another sub but the further you get away the more "pure" that animal becomes. With that being said my guess is that a Kings from NJ would be the "Purist" of the Eastern Kings out there. Again it would be fascinating to see gentic testing between the subs to see who shares the most common genetics etc... Anyway this is all just my thoughts I dont claim it to be true and I could be swayed which ever way with research etc...
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Between each common kingsnake species range there is an intergration area. Only the purest form of each species will be found in the farthest point away from each overlapping gepgraphical area (intergrade zone). California kings in the west, Eastern kings in the northwest and Mexican black kings in the far south are all in their "purest" form for they are each at the extent of their region, area, or zone. No other common king to intergrade with.
-John Lassiter-

BTW,
Great topic here.

Keith, this freaked me out. You started off by saying you think Eastern genetics worked their way down from the north? I coulda swore that is what you were saying was not likely in our other discussion?[I could be wrong,....and since it's erased no point in trying to remember]. I agree with what you said about small pockets of the light yellows here n there, I have been saying that all along. I like your post a lot. I see in a way you agree that "pure" is taken a little too literally by some of us. I WISH there was a better more suitable word we could bring to the forum. I also think the point about the most Northern Easterns probably should be looked at as the purest....seeing they're far from other Kings influence. Too bad Florida is a penninsula...seems things are more lumped together there. Good discussion we all have going here, I hope it continues. Tom Stevens

a true Floridani should only speak English. but my captives only make the rodents speak.,Possibly Wrong again Se La Vee(such is life).....Chris the pic is a maybe floridani aquired from a wholesaler I like her .... C

My brain is now on overload. I don't know where to begin so I am gong to reread everything and then attempt to comment. Lots of great points have been made. It's exactly the kind of talk I had hoped for THANKS! Tom Stevens

I heard from a few people they felt there was a difference in the snake as far as where the head turns into the neck? That [I may have this backwards] one had an indent at the end of the head and got a fraction thinner before meeting the body and that the other showed no indent and just widened into the body. Anyone ever hear that? Did the field guides from over 15 years ago say that Brooksi were the same as Floridana EXCEPT for the color? I have a snake in my collection sold to me as Brooksi. I showed it too a few friends who also work with them and said I thought I kind of got ripped because now it is a yearling and it is not half as colorful as my others. The few who commented said it was indeed Brooksi. I need to repost a pic of this snake to see what people have to say. It is allready on the forum....but I will snap a better pic asap. Let's hear about this neck comment....Thanks! Tom Stevens

ive heard the neck thing before but i dont beleive it, i beleive thats individuality and within the ssp. ive seen it in all ssp of snakes but i suppose it could be a genetic differance,but i dont beleive that would warrant ssp.status but then again some folks beleive that fat or obeseity in humans is genetic so i reckon anythings possible,im pretty ignorant when it comes to genetics, but i feel i have a pretty good grasp on snakes esp. kings anywhoo great topic,,,,,,,,thomas

of Floridani,meaning W/C not man made. i feel reg dark phase floridani should have a name so prospective aquisitions are not disapointed w/ an ugly? i know no such thing"comparitive)giant beast . Arent the 50/50 Cals known as desert varient.so on, so on.Chris

I agree with Christopher. . . Variant is okay. At least that way most people will know what they're getting if they're buying OR looking for a certain variant in the wild in a certain location. But subspecies. . . hmmm better have more differences than just color shade (my opinion).
Ever thought about the Great plains rat and corn snake. . . Hmmmmm. . . Are they REALLY THAT different- Maybe so, maybe not. . . I mainly deal with kingsnakes, but you got to admit What IS the MAJOR difference between those two? One lacks the red pigment and that's about it! Both have identical patterns & size. . .
Ok time for more popcorn, LOL!

Zee